2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Shayuki]

Legitimate question here...why is it that the CSKA competitiors are definitely overscored and that there's totally a bonus for them and that's just a fact, but suggesting that Crystal competitors also get overscored and the "Eteri bonus" is the height of slander?

Are people really saying CSKA skaters can't be better than Crystal ones? Like ever?

I'm starting to wonder if the judges should be made to sit in an entirely different room and when they watch the skaters on a big screen there's no identifying information and faces are blurred.

It would be an interesting experiment actually, how would skaters be scored if it was entirely down to the skating, with no knowledge of who the skater is, who their coach is and who they represent.

You don't know about the CSKA bonus?

CSKA skaters receive extra fluff PCS no matter their abilities and how good they are. Yes, you can choose to believe that the CSKA skaters genuinely skate far better domestically and then are significantly weaker in terms of artistry internationally for example, if you prefer. But a combination of such occurrances(CKSA scores high domestically -> weak internationally) as well as, well, eyes and personal evaluation, it's quite simple to see how CSKA skaters get significantly overscored.

This has been a thing for years and years, kind of surprising you wouldn't know if you've been following for a long time.

In fact, if you follow Plushenko's skaters you probably watched the Moscow novice championships recently. If you noticed, Sofia Titova beat 2 CSKA skaters pretty closely, but if you watched the skaters it really made next to no sense how the CSKA skaters got scored as high as they did. For example Paramonova with 2 falls got within 0.02 PCS of Titova who was far more expressive and skated clean. Shrug.

 

[anonymoose_au]

This has been a thing for years and years, kind of surprising you wouldn't know if you've been following for a long time.

I haven't been following figure skating on the domestic Russian level for very long so I genuinely didn't know.

It's a bit concerning that this has been going on though, in all seriousness isn't that the kind of thing that would get a country thrown out of the ISU (I know there's rules for being a member country and some countries have been removed)?

The more I hear about Russian domestic competitions the more I question the Russian Figure Skating Fed are they all ex-CSKA people or something if this doesn't bother them?

 

[Shayuki]

I haven't been following figure skating on the domestic Russian level for very long so I genuinely didn't know.

It's a bit concerning that this has been going on though, in all seriousness isn't that the kind of thing that would get a country thrown out of the ISU (I know there's rules for being a member country and some countries have been removed)?

The more I hear about Russian domestic competitions the more I question the Russian Figure Skating Fed are they all ex-CSKA people or something if this doesn't bother them?

Well, as you might be aware the most notorious figure skating personality in Russia, TAT, is a CSKA person, and she's best buddies with ISU Vice President Alexander Lakernik

I don't think anyone cares how Russia does their domestic competitions, I mean if they could do what they did with Konstantinova... (Which is overscore her through the roof domestically, send her to worlds completely undeserved, where she then unfortunately had to embarrass herself due to being entirely unqualified, which probably traumatized her for career)

 

[flanker]

I haven't been following figure skating on the domestic Russian level for very long so I genuinely didn't know.

It's a bit concerning that this has been going on though, in all seriousness isn't that the kind of thing that would get a country thrown out of the ISU (I know there's rules for being a member country and some countries have been removed)?

The more I hear about Russian domestic competitions the more I question the Russian Figure Skating Fed are they all ex-CSKA people or something if this doesn't bother them?

Remember, it's "central sport club of the army", it has whole deparment on the ministry of defence. Just a summary sentence from wiki: "The club is active in more than 40 sports, and produced 463 Olympic champions for the Soviet Union and Russia, 11,000 champions in local Soviet and Russian championships, and 2629 golden medalists in European and world championships."
They literally are the russian sport itself. They have facilities, know-how, provide education, tens of thousands athletes. You would have to completely reorganize the russian sport to strip CSKA from it's position which would hurt many and help no one.

Though, having such undeniably strong team like TT outside of CSKA is beneficial IMO.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Well, as you might be aware the most notorious figure skating personality in Russia, TAT, is a CSKA person, and she's best buddies with ISU Vice President Alexander Lakernik

Oh well that explains a lot.

Honestly, I used to think T Tarasova was OK, but the more I find out...I'm starting to think she's a menace to skating. I mean she can be proud of her club and everything, but you're supposed to leave that bias behind when commentating and deciding which assignments skaters get. Isn't she part of the infamous coaches council who left Liza off the 2019 World's Team? She has a finger in every pie!

I guess this power of hers explains why Alina Z and Liza Tuk pose with her in photos despite the hideous things she said about them.

 

[Skatefan15]

You probably suppose people don't have eyes. As was already stated, Koola King tactics to assasinate a person by posting wrong frames doesn't creeate the reality some want to believe in.

But it doesn’t matter what frame you use, Anna (and others) are never on the correct edge (or even slightly correct edge) during the takeoff (I’ve seen many videos showing the entire take off, not just Koola king or whoever else you think is like that person). It’s not a “Koola king” tactic, it’s literally just slowing down a video and clearly showing that Anna (or any skater with an edge issue) shift’s her edge to flat or inside on the takeoff. Then if someone wants to, compare that video to someone with a better technical jump (like Liza T for example) to show why shifting to a flat or an inside edge is not good and is not good technique (shouldn’t get +4s and +5s).

I just wish people in this forum (and beyond) would acknowledge their favorite skater’s issues. Pointing out overscoring or technically flawed jumps or any technical flaw for that matter, doesn’t make anyone any less of a fan, it just makes them a objective one that doesn’t kiss the ground their favorite skaters walk on.

 

[Skatesocs]

why did yall have to wake up Nadya?

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice...

 

[Jontor]

Oh well that explains a lot.

Honestly, I used to think T Tarasova was OK, but the more I find out...I'm starting to think she's a menace to skating. I mean she can be proud of her club and everything, but you're supposed to leave that bias behind when commentating and deciding which assignments skaters get. Isn't she part of the infamous coaches council who left Liza off the 2019 World's Team? She has a finger in every pie!

I guess this power of hers explains why Alina Z and Liza Tuk pose with her in photos despite the hideous things she said about them.

Well, the thing is with Russian Figure Skating is that there is a LOT of old f*rts still being very powerful. They all come from the Soviet era.

Things are changing though. Eteri is proof of that and we should be glad that she is shaking things up. And there are other coaches too. Davydov, Butsaeva, Plushenko etc. (I don't count Buianova in here!). TAT and company will soon be gone, and a new generation is waiting to take their place. That's a good thing.

 

[Skatefan15]

You really don't wanna move on from this topic, do you?!

I do, I’m just responding to someone. But it seems to be hard to try to explain yourself and your thinking process here sometimes, so I’m just gonna stop (we can all just think and see what we want to, I guess). Lesson learned I’ll just stay away from this thread

 

[Scott512]

We ? Medvedeva fans ?
I certainly have a problem with your claim that Anna often has a wrong edge on her Lz. That's just another bs

Bubbles point was not to point out that Anna has a flaw. Her idea was to point out that several elite Russian skaters have a flaw and let's move on. Bubble cherry can state her point but I am sure that's what she meant.

Bubble even brought alliona into the conversation so you know she is making a point about how several Russian ladies have a flaw. She was not trying to point out and demean Anna.

 

[Scott512]

Legitimate question here...why is it that the CSKA competitiors are definitely overscored and that there's totally a bonus for them and that's just a fact, but suggesting that Crystal competitors also get overscored and the "Eteri bonus" is the height of slander?

Are people really saying CSKA skaters can't be better than Crystal ones? Like ever?

I'm starting to wonder if the judges should be made to sit in an entirely different room and when they watch the skaters on a big screen there's no identifying information and faces are blurred.

It would be an interesting experiment actually, how would skaters be scored if it was entirely down to the skating, with no knowledge of who the skater is, who their coach is and who they represent.

Nobody suggest that about CSKA that they get an EG like boost. You are the first.

 

[Scott512]

Calling all Anna's Lutzes has nothing to do with fairness, it's that 100 times repeated lie established as truth.

I keep waiting for you to say fake news!

 

[chasingneverland]

It kind of does have something to do with fairness and it’s not a lie, she doesn’t take off of the right edge (just like Evgenia, Daria, Sofia, and Aliona *sometimes*, etc.) Calling out a skater’s technical flaws doesn’t mean someone is a hater...

Sorry to add on more to this conversation (I know everyone is tired of it), but when so many slow mos and comparisons exist that show her clearly shift to a flat or inside (no matter the angle) it becomes kind of frustrating to see so many people argue (or rather state) that it isn’t. There are certain things fans can agree to disagree on for other aspects of this sport, but when there is video proof of her not doing a jump correctly, I don’t get how people justify it (not trying to be rude at all and also don’t agree with people who go to attacking a skater’s character).

It IS flat or unclear - sometimes ever so slightly outside but mostly flat. No one is arguing that. Ugh.
No one is justifying that.

And if we're going with fairness where is your outrage about Daria's lz at nationals?

 

[chasingneverland]

But it doesn’t matter what frame you use, Anna (and others) are never on the correct edge (or even slightly correct edge) during the takeoff (I’ve seen many videos showing the entire take off, not just Koola king or whoever else you think is like that person). It’s not a “Koola king” tactic, it’s literally just slowing down a video and clearly showing that Anna (or any skater with an edge issue) shift’s her edge to flat or inside on the takeoff. Then if someone wants to, compare that video to someone with a better technical jump (like Liza T for example) to show why shifting to a flat or an inside edge is not good and is not good technique (shouldn’t get +4s and +5s).

I just wish people in this forum (and beyond) would acknowledge their favorite skater’s issues. Pointing out overscoring or technically flawed jumps or any technical flaw for that matter, doesn’t make anyone any less of a fan, it just makes them a objective one that doesn’t kiss the ground their favorite skaters walk on.

People ARE acknowledging Anna's issues. She's definitely NOT the only one.

However, she IS being unfairly singled out and the criticisms are far beyond her technique and what's done on the ice and extending to her character which is uncalled for. Furthermore, most who ARE criticizing Anna are NOT being objective in their own right.

 

[chasingneverland]

Has this been posted yet?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKd0buHpN5z/

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

CSKA novices seem to get some bonus, but what about Nastya Gubanova who was so underscored while with Buyanova? I mean, she's literally been underscored her entire life but... no CSKA bonus for her? Also aren't Tsibinova and Frolova CSKA skaters technically as well now (they train with Davydov right? And he works at CSKA?). But where is their bonus?

 

[chasingneverland]

CSKA novices seem to get some bonus, but what about Nastya Gubanova who was so underscored while with Buyanova? I mean, she's literally been underscored her entire life but... no CSKA bonus for her? Also aren't Tsibinova and Frolova CSKA skaters technically as well now (they train with Davydov right? And he works at CSKA?). But where is their bonus?

Their bonus is the same place as Sofia's Mishin bonus and sometimes Maiia's Eteri bonus.

 

[colormyworld240]

Annas and Sashas quads at RusNats did not have the same height. It might have been different in juniors but I cant be bothered to go back and check. The heights at RusNats where approximately
Sasha 4Lz(+3T) 55cm (20 frames)
Sasha 4Lz 60cm (21 frames)
Anna 4Lz 27cm (14 frames)
Anna 4F 44cm (18 frames)


I did my calculations based on this video from rusnats since it included both skaters in the same video and the framerate therefore is the same. I got the framerate to be 30 frames/seconds when I checked. And used the following formula to extract the height of the jump

h=g/2*((frames/30)/2)^2

You can check its validity in for example this video that explanis it nicely.

Edit: Since Kamilla is also in that video doing quads I decided to do her as well

Kamilla 4T(+2T) 49cm (19 frames)
Kamilla 4T 44cm (18 frames)

Edit 2: This video was in not ideal to judge height since the frame rate isnt great and the image is sometimes a bit blurry which makes it hard to determine if they are actually still airborn or not. So there is probably a +1/-1 error margine on my calculated air frames. But it was the best I could find.

I can't comment on your calculations as I haven't gone through the methods and formulas myself but just looking at the numbers there's no way they could be correct, especially for Anna and Kamila's jumps? From a very qualitative POV, at worlds, Alina's 2A was measured at 41 cm and looked much smaller than Kamila's 4T and Anna's quads. At GPF last season, Kamila and Anna's 2As were measured at 40 cm on the stream and their quads look much bigger than their 2As so the only way those numbers would be correct is if their 2As are half the height that they were last season or their quads are the same height as their 2As (and Anna's 4Lz is much lower than her 2A) now which I don't see? I guess another option could be that those numbers GPF were incorrect but by that much?

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

You know. I agree. We all do know. However, the post right after yours does show why ( imho) Anna tends to get more criticism on this site. As it is a poster denying that Anna has any edge issues, while ignoring the point of your post. You tell Med fans that she flutzes and they say " yes" but she is still a lovely skater. That ends the discussion. You tell Sasha fans she has a lip and they agree, but are just upset about the fact the other girls aren't getting called on their edges. That ends the discussion about Sasha's flip although it probably starts a different ,also unpleasant ,discussion. However, certain fans are unwilling to acknowledge that Anna has any technical issues.( Not all, she does have some honest fans who defend her without constantly gaslighting) and , often, refuse to acknowledge that any Eteri skater is ever overscored domestically or internationally. They take offense at any criticism of the choreography..This constant denial of something anything with eyes can see makes other posters want to fight back against the gaslighting. The whole process just keeps going. It is especially funny when you see these same touchy posters make disparaging remarks about skaters from other countries or other coaching teams, while claiming other posters who make even slight constructive criticism of any of their favorites are jealous and biased. This is behavior from a small group of people but they run this thread.

All that being said, there is one poster on this site who tends to believe that technical issues, and the judges overscoring certain skaters means that it is acceptable to personally attack those skaters. I do wonder why said poster is still allowed to post on this site. No one should make such comments about any hard-working teenage girl who is just doing their best and is not responsible for the way they are scored. I can only assume that said poster is very young and immature, because if it is an adult poster making these comments, they really lack any emotional maturity.

Well, I remember when Alyona left Eteri that many people did criticize her for her character.
One of the posters here even said that she is behaving like tr**h and pretty much no one reacted to this. No one said "but is she just a little girl, a hardworking teenager... "
But If I say that Anna is proud and has horrid technique and so on, then there is always this "but she is a little girl bla bla bla". I do remember when I was Anna's age and younger and I hated so much every possible cheating technique... (For example most students cheated on exams and I never did. Skating is so similar to school in so many ways. And to life...)

 

[Skatesocs]

Well, I remember when Alyona left Eteri that many people did criticize her for her character.
One of the posters here even said that she is behaving like tr**h and pretty much no one reacted to this. No one said "but is she just a little girl, a hardworking teenager... "

IF no one called out the posters who tried to assassinate Kostornaia's character, then shame on them. It's not a ticket for you to assassinate Shcherbakova's character, however.