2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Blades of Passion]

catch-food camels

I love when people throw popcorn in my mouth as I spin!

The GOE bullet that relates most to flexibility is "good position". But again, let me use Wakaba's Bond layback spin with the arm flourishes. She doesn't even do a biellmann but she has great speed and position in the haircutter and the arm flourish matches the music extremely well. She did it when we weren't using +5/-5, but still, I feel like it would be a spin I would give +4 to, and she doesn't even do a biellmann.

Wakaba's layback has a bad sideways position. The haircutter has good speed but not the fastest possible, and the position is not the best either, the back can be a lot more flexible. If someone does a "pearl" position as the haircutter (with the same speed), it deserves more GOE in comparison, otherwise the scoring is not accurately assessing the quality of those spins. +4 is out of line for what Wakaba does, it's +2 at most on quality of the spin itself and then could go up to +3 when including the musicality of the spin.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Wakaba's layback has a bad sideways position. The haircutter has good speed but not the fastest possible, and the position is not the best either, the back can be a lot more flexible. If someone does a "pearl" position as the haircutter (with the same speed), it deserves more GOE in comparison, otherwise the scoring is not accurately assessing the quality of those spins. +4 is out of line for what Wakaba does, it's +2 at most on quality of the spin itself and then could go up to +3 when including the musicality of the spin.

This isn't really applicable to this thread per se but again, it depends on what you consider "good position". I looked at the spin again and yes, I agree the first sideways position is pretty bad (mostly speed wise), but I think the second one is fine and the haircutter is very good. And it's not the fastest possible but the GOE doesn't ask for 500 miles a minute. I think it works for good acceleration. The spin also has good centering and great musicality. So overall, I think +4 works. Now looking back at it, okay fine, maybe +3 because the sideways position is slow, but I don't think I'd be furious with a +4.

My interpretation of GOE was always that you're supposed to score individually. I wouldn't not give Wakaba or Zhenya's haircutter the GOE bullet just because Caroline Zhang can do a pearl spin. That doesn't make sense IMO because they are still getting good acceleration and a good position. It might not be the best ever, but it qualifies for good. It would be unfair if only pearl spins could get that GOE bullet.

 

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With confirmed worlds Russian Cup final has suddenly become a very important event. Liza or Alyona? Alyona or Liza? Well, the less relevant question is which of Lizas? I doubt that Liza N will be given a chance.

We have another big drama and no matter how it goes one can expect big time fan wars as the aftermath.

I would certainly go now that I have survived coronavirus and I am neither a threat nor under a threat. But tickets are not on sale. I nearly bought nice tickets for ladies free skate. But at the last minute I realized that the sellers were crooks who mimic for the official Megasport site.

 

[Blades of Passion]

This isn't really applicable to this thread per se but again, it depends on what you consider "good position". I looked at the spin again and yes, I agree the first sideways position is pretty bad (mostly speed wise), but I think the second one is fine and the haircutter is very good. And it's not the fastest possible but the GOE doesn't ask for 500 miles a minute. I think it works for good acceleration. The spin also has good centering and great musicality. So overall, I think +4 works. Now looking back at it, okay fine, maybe +3 because the sideways position is slow, but I don't think I'd be furious with a +4.

Her sideways position isn't bad because of the speed, but because the position itself has no flexibility; it's highly debatable if she should even get level credit for it.

The bullet points aren't supposed to just be checked off robotically. If you do a layback like Nathalie Krieg, you deserve more credit for speed than someone who merely has "good speed".

My interpretation of GOE was always that you're supposed to score individually. I wouldn't not give Wakaba or Zhenya's haircutter the GOE bullet just because Caroline Zhang can do a pearl spin. That doesn't make sense IMO because they are still getting good acceleration and a good position. It might not be the best ever, but it qualifies for good. It would be unfair if only pearl spins could get that GOE bullet.

How is it "unfair"? Someone is doing something that is factually more difficult (while being visually appealing). It's a sport, people need to be awarded for what they accomplish. If someone never gets a boost from doing such a difficult thing, then what is the point in even trying it? The answer is people won't try it and instead we will see the same positions from everyone. That's bad for the sport.

Of course, it's possible someone can do more speed and arm variation on a typical haircutter than another person's pearl position, and they can do other superb positions in the spin, so it's not like a specific position is inherently needed to deserve max GOE. There needs to be some kind of amazing qualities to deserve max GOE though. Not just "good", something truly special.

 

[Scott512]

With confirmed worlds Russian Cup final has suddenly become a very important event. Liza or Alyona? Alyona or Liza? Well, the less relevant question is which of Lizas? I doubt that Liza N will be given a chance.

We have another big drama and no matter how it goes one can expect big time fan wars as the aftermath.

I would certainly go now that I have survived coronavirus and I am neither a threat nor under a threat. But tickets are not on sale. I nearly bought nice tickets for ladies free skate. But at the last minute I realized that the sellers were crooks who mimic for the official Megasport site.

Do you live in Krasnyorak? You've got the go and see the battle of the Sofias. Who knows maybe Veronika or Adelia will win.

Even without KV Maya and Dasha this will be better than any junior world championship we would have had this season.

On a side note Sam are people in Russia taking vitamin C vitamin D3 and zinc every day to fight off covid?
I'm glad you're feeling better.

 

[Lzbee]

I'm personally not a fan of the hyper flexible spins because they look painful or like they'd be bad for your joints, especially the needle biellmanns or whatever they're called. Rhythmic gymnasts often get back fractures and the thought of that just freaks me out a bit even as a viewer.

I think less flexible spins can look great too though, eg. I like Valieva's old Y-spin more than the more flexible variant she does now.

That said, I'm also not against reserving the highest goe (+5) for the flexible spins since they are more difficult. Flexible spinners tend to be fast spinners anyway so they're not likely to get super low goe unless they travel a lot.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Her sideways position isn't bad because of the speed, but because the position itself has no flexibility; it's highly debatable if she should even get level credit for it.

The bullet points aren't supposed to just be checked off robotically. If you do a layback like Nathalie Krieg, you deserve more credit for speed than someone who merely has "good speed".



How is it "unfair"? Someone is doing something that is factually more difficult (while being visually appealing). It's a sport, people need to be awarded for what they accomplish. If someone never gets a boost from doing such a difficult thing, then what is the point in even trying it? The answer is people won't try it and instead we will see the same positions from everyone. That's bad for the sport.

Of course, it's possible someone can do more speed and arm variation on a typical haircutter than another person's pearl position, and they can do other superb positions in the spin, so it's not like a specific position is inherently needed to deserve max GOE. There needs to be some kind of amazing qualities to deserve max GOE though. Not just "good", something truly special.

I mean I guess I agree with your ideas and I would give out points that way too, but I don't think that's how the judging system works. I do think the bullets are supposed to be checked off robotically because the handbook literally says if you do five of these, with the 3 bolded points, you get +5. It doesn't say: "if you do one of these things extremely well you get +2 for that point by itself.

This is a reason why the judging system can never be perfect. At the theoretical level, a position as gorgeous and difficult as the pearl spin does deserve extra GOE, but the thing is that position really only adds one GOE point (actually technically two for creativity, but I'm mostly focusing on the "good position" bullet here). You can't say a position that is amazing and super rare like the pearl spin or the Adelina spin or Yulia's I-spin should be the only spins that get the "good position" bullet because technically Zhenya's haircutter or Alina's donut or Masha's I-spin also feature "good position". You can't give 1 point to the first few examples and 0.5 for the second group. There's only one point. You can only give it or not give it. But with that extra "creativity" bullet there does come a reward for trying something new. That's where the formerly mentioned spins can get that +1, while the second group don't. So I guess there's some compromise there.

But overall I agree with you. I wouldn't give a spin that technically checks off all the bullets a +5 if it's boring or too commonly seen. That would be unfair to those amazing spinners who are trying to challenge all laws of physics to bring something new to the table.

 

[Dawn825]

Where can I find the +5/-5 GOE requirements?? I can only find the +3/-3 ones and it's driving me crazy.

 

[Shayuki]

Where can I find the +5/-5 GOE requirements?? I can only find the +3/-3 ones and it's driving me crazy.

Same source as always right? https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-...y-and-guidelines-for-marking-goe-2019-20/file

 

[Blades of Passion]

I mean I guess I agree with your ideas and I would give out points that way too, but I don't think that's how the judging system works. I do think the bullets are supposed to be checked off robotically because the handbook literally says if you do five of these, with the 3 bolded points, you get +5.

It doesn't say that. They are guidelines, with generally vague descriptions, of how GOE should be awarded, not a black-and-white checklist. Although it certainly makes it easier to justify overscoring, the way things are written. The rules need further updating to provide clarity and fairness for all.

 

[Skatesocs]

How is it "unfair"? Someone is doing something that is factually more difficult (while being visually appealing). It's a sport, people need to be awarded for what they accomplish. If someone never gets a boost from doing such a difficult thing, then what is the point in even trying it?

That's what I was trying to argue too. Taking the jump analogy, if there's a person with a 70 cm high 270 cm long jump, you wouldn't give another person who jumps only 60 cm high 230 cm long the bullet "good height and distance". Or would you? You would have then equated something factually more difficult to something less than that, just because the bullets demanded it.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

It doesn't say that. They are guidelines, with generally vague descriptions, of how GOE should be awarded, not a black-and-white checklist. Although it certainly makes it easier to justify overscoring, the way things are written. The rules need further updating to provide clarity and fairness for all.

From ISU Communication 2334:

FOR + 1 : 1 bullet
FOR + 2 : 2 bullets
FOR + 3 : 3 bullets
FOR + 4 : 4 bullets
FOR + 5 : 5 or more bullets
FOR + 4 and +5 THE FIRST THREE bullets highlighted in bold must be present

That's how I interpret those lines. But I guess I could see how people could interpret it differently.

 

[Dawn825]

Thank you Shayuki, Idk why tf I couldn't find it.
Explains a lot. With the +3/-3 spin bullets, there was one for superior position - which would necessitate comparison and require being much better than the competition's. A pearl spin would be superior to the standard layback, a needle would be superior to the standard biellmann, a really extended I-spin would be superior to the standard Y-spin. Basically, extreme flexibility would be a bullet.
With +5/-5, there's just the basic one for good position. Anything not bad could be considered good. A decent spin position and an unbelievable spin position would both get the one bullet.

I do think the bullets are supposed to be checked off robotically because the handbook literally says if you do five of these, with the 3 bolded points, you get +5. It doesn't say: "if you do one of these things extremely well you get +2 for that point by itself.

Basically. To get +4 or +5 the spin has to be centered, musical, or creative. I guess pearls, needles, and extended I-spins might all get the bullet for creativity? Because they're variations?

 

[Skatesocs]

If the average person jumps around 60 cm, it could be considered a good height.

If the average person jumps areound 60 cm... it would be average height though?

 

[Dawn825]

If the average person jumps areound 60 cm... it would be average height though?

I maintain good might mean or be understood as decent/average but I deleted part because while the post I quoted said "good height and distance", I see the actual GOE bullet says "very good", which definitely doesnt mean average.
Speaking of jump bullets, can someone explain what a jump that has a good take off and landing, but not a good body position from take off to landing, might look like??

 

[readernick]

Personally, I am not drawn to extreme flexibility either. I wish more skaters had spins that were centered, musical, and creative. I think very few skaters actually deserve to get those three GOE bullets. Also, very few skaters with good flexibility have great centering. I was really impressed by Osokina's spins at test skates. I found them centered, creative and musical. Unfortunately, her injury interfered with the quality of her spins. Hopefully, they will be back to their previous quality at Junior Nats.

 

[Shayuki]

Thank you Shayuki, Idk why tf I couldn't find it.

ISU isn't very good at updating the main site but something like this should be a safe bet: https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications

 

[Skatesocs]

Speaking of jump bullets, can someone explain what a jump that has a good take off and landing, but not a good body position from take off to landing, might look like??

It means the ISU is kind of dumb

 

[Blades of Passion]

A jump with a bad leg wrap or that goes off axis in the air (but still lands well) could qualify.

 

[Skatesocs]

A jump with a bad leg wrap or that goes off axis in the air (but still lands well) could qualify.

For what and why?

A jump with a bad leg wrap usually means a lazy take off.