Men's Short Program

[oxade21]

This is strange debate. All current leaders are inconsistent skaters who yet to prove that they can be unbeatable. And finally for every Asada, there is always Lepisto around the corner waiting.
I can see anyone out of Joubert, Lambiel, Takahashi winning with someone who could spoil. Of course, I am rooting for Dai!!!!

 

[bekalc]

Joubert isnt unbeatable. Last year at Worlds he was only 3rd in the LP and won because of his lead after the short. He did not do the 2nd quad though, if he did he would have been almost tied with Takahashi in the long for the win, but that was with Takahashi having only 1 quad and a hand down on it. Lambiel managed a huge score even with 3 big mistakes, had it not been even the silly last 2 mistakes on a triple-triple combination he would have won the long program easily over both of them, even with Joubert doing the 2nd quad. Every time Joubert does 3 quads he does not max out his other jumping passes, that might be a mistake or he might find it physically draining.

Well, you realize that Joubert was injured at that worlds. So he went for broke in the short program, and skated a safer program in the long... Joubert is capable of skating much better than he did at worlds, but it wasn't a matter of nerves, it was Joubert trying to manage his injury. If Joubert had put out everything he's capable of he would have won that competition pretty easily..

 

[Tonichelle]

...who yet to prove that they can be unbeatable.

that's what makes it a sport... someone is bound to come along and beat even the 'unbeatable'

Kurt Browning 4-time world champion had his bad days and lost

as did every other big name multi title winners of the past... this crop is no different than previous generations... the tricks are just harder and the costumes change, but at the same time it's still skating... the ice is still slick and many times unforgiving...

 

[slutskayafan21]

If Joubert had put out everything he's capable of he would have won that competition pretty easily..

Yes, thanks to Takahashi's low score in the short program, and Lambiel self destructing in both programs.

Even his short program wasnt unbeatable. If Lambiel could score a 72+ with a triple toe-double toe (which is worth 4.2 less then a triple flip-triple toe and 7.7 less then a quad toe-triple toe) and a fall on the a triple axel, he could definitely score high 80s if he did a clean short today, and Takahashi and Oda both scored in the same range as Joubert's World short program at NHK with no quad, albeit possible inflated home country scoring.

 

[bekalc]

Yes, thanks to Takahashi's low score in the short program, and Lambiel self destructing in both programs.

Yes, but Dai's low score in the short program was quite deserved since he badly underrotated his triple/triple in the short... Especially when you count in that Joubert did a 4/3.

The thing with Dai is while I think he's more enjoyable to watch, Dai isn't very consistent and has a tendency to have meltdowns. It was pretty incredible that he skated as well as he did at Worlds last year in the free. But how he skated in the long at Skate America is more of the same. Dai has yet to show that he can stand up to pressure and skate well... (He was very very far behind at Worlds)

When it comes to who I think I can count on to be fairly consistent, it's Joubert, and well honestly, that's half the battle.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Yes, but Dai's low score in the short program was quite deserved since he badly underrotated his triple/triple in the short... Especially when you count in that Joubert did a 4/3.

The thing with Dai is while I think he's more enjoyable to watch, Dai isn't very consistent and has a tendency to have meltdowns. It was pretty incredible that he skated as well as he did at Worlds last year in the free. But how he skated in the long at Skate America is more of the same. Dai has yet to show that he can stand up to pressure and skate well... (He was very very far behind at Worlds)

When it comes to who I think I can count on to be fairly consistent, it's Joubert, and well honestly, that's half the battle.

I am not disputing that Joubert's consistency gives him an edge. I am just not thinking he is unbeatable ala Plushenko in his prime. Plushenko in the Olympic year was unbeatable since even if one of the other contenders did their best they couldnt beat him. That is not the case with Joubert. If Lambiel or Takashashi land all their jumps in both programs successfully I am almost certain they would beat him, especialy Lambiel. That makes him not unbeatable the same way someone who truly was at a point in time, like Plushenko in the Olympic year, was.

 

[bekalc]

I am not disputing that Joubert's consistency gives him an edge. I am just not thinking he is unbeatable ala Plushenko in his prime. Plushenko in the Olympic year was unbeatable since even if one of the other contenders did their best they couldnt beat him. That is not the case with Joubert. If Lambiel or Takashashi land all their jumps in both programs successfully I am almost certain they would beat him, especialy Lambiel. That makes him not unbeatable the same way someone who truly was at a point in time, like Plushenko in the Olympic year, was.

True, but if Joubert has improved a lot aristically with this program, if I may say so and if he continues to improve he will be unbeatable.

As for Lambiel, I think the issue with him, is while he's wonderful, will he ever have a triple axel?

 

[Hsuhs]

but if Joubert has improved a lot aristically with this program

Hasn't he always been improving aristically? By the time he's 70 y.o. he'll be a true artist at last.

 

[ae9177]

Wow Brian is in such a great shape!

He should easily win another world champion! IMO the only guy who can challenge him this season is Takahashi, both have amazing debute. Everybody else will fight for the bronze medal.

I know slutskayafan21 would argue like crazy that if Lambiel skate cleanly..... but the fact is, Lambiel is too inconsistent, he hasn't skated 2 clean programs for a while, the distance between him and Joubert and Takahashi is getting further and furture. And I still think Buttle is better than Weir.

Go Brian, go Jeff!

 

[slutskayafan21]

the distance between him and Joubert and Takahashi is getting further and furture.

Right and you have valid reasoning to say this when Lambiel hasnt even skated yet this season. Or maybe it is the "huge" 78 short program score of Joubert, or Takahashi's 2-fall long program Skate America which lost the long program to Lysacek, that shows them pulling so far away for sure.

 

[museksk8r]

Haha, it's WAY TOO EARLY to be declaring the World Champ for 2008 at this point in the season. We haven't even seen Stephane compete yet this season. Diasuke is not more consistent than Stephane. Stephane has the most impressive resume of any of the men competing now. 2 Worlds golds, Olympic silver, and a World bronze. Diasuke has 1 World silver and Brian has 1 World gold and 2 World silvers. Stephane is my favorite of all the men and overall, my favorite skater of any discipline at the moment. He has filled the void for me since Michelle parted. I REALLY hope to see her skate again!

 

[Teenes]

if his skating is as good as everyone says I just might jump on the Joubert bandwagon this year...

did Kurt choreograph the LP too?

Yeah, Kurt did all of Brian's programs this year. SP, LP, and exhibition. Rather amused that in his CBC column, Kurt expressed the personal wish Brian would do well so he could perform the exhibition number to Coldplay's "Clocks" =).

Kurt also did Jeremy Abbott's SP. I'm in the US, haven't watched this competition, but did I see someone say that there were two numbers Kurt had skated to in a row? He did "All Alone" but never skated to "Treat", or did I miss a number somewhere?

Thanks for the info everyone!

 

[slutskayafan21]

I think the mens event this year will have lots of potential contenders. Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi are the top 3 favorites; but Lysacek, Oda, Verner, are dangerous as well. I can understand someone saying Joubert is consistent and that gives him an edge over the others but Takahashi . Granted he has gotten more consistent then he used to be, but I would wait to see whether he can stay more consistent then Lambiel and some of the others for longer then a couple months of last season ( a couple months where Lambiel admited to being very unmotivated for awhile, and only found his motivation right before Worlds to compete giving him limited preperation time) to say he is more consistent then the others the same way Joubert has been lately.

 

[Ximena]

Joubert won everything last season, proving he can deal with the pressure. But I believe in Daisuke, I think he has a chance. If only he peaks when it counts.

There is no pressure when you don't have anyone to beat. Joubert's past season was a walk in the park for him. Plush was out and Lambiel had what could only be described as a mid-life crisis but on his early 20s.
Worlds proved the pressure thing, he finally could have proved he was the one and he ended up third on the FS. Now somoene mentioned Joubert was injured, but honestly who isn't now? Look at Lambiel he has had what 2 knee surgeries? He will never be healthy from that, all of them are always injured, that's how FS has always been.

While I felt completely out of place and horrible timing Candeloro's comment (pretty much on Joubert's face) that Brian won because he had none to compete against with, he hwas pretty much spot on.

If this season he proves consistency, then great because I'm not fan of Joubert BUT I do think he is as close as what a complete skater should be, he has now the Presentation marks and the SP proved that he finally fixed his only "bad" jump that was the lutz. Everyone says Lambiel and Buttle as "complete" skaters and I know it's not all about the jumps, but it's annoying that they both win events or place so high without a 3ax that it's a jump that the men had been landing for over a decade now.

 

[slutskayafan21]

While I felt completely out of place and horrible timing Candeloro's comment (pretty much on Joubert's face) that Brian won because he had none to compete against with, he hwas pretty much spot on.

Or it could have been a bit of bitterness and jealousy that Joubert managed to win the World title he never managed.

 

[Ximena]

Or it could have been a bit of bitterness and jealousy that Joubert managed to win the World title he never managed.

Well yeah probably that as well. But truth is that everyone knew that in the technical merit the only one who could have been a competition for Joubert at Worlds was Stephane, and Brian had 10 points more than him after the SP, so it was impossible for Stephane to catch up even when he beat him on the FS.

 

[calica]

Well., but the competition is two tests, the short program and the long, and it is necessary to do it in both well.
I do not understand that it is criticized the title of a person because the others made it bad, I do not remember that anybody was criticizing the Lambiel's first title

 

[Mathman]

And finally for every Asada, there is always Lepisto around the corner waiting.

:agree: The quote of the day!

 

[bekalc]

There is no pressure when you don't have anyone to beat. Joubert's past season was a walk in the park for him. Plush was out and Lambiel had what could only be described as a mid-life crisis but on his early 20s.
Worlds proved the pressure thing, he finally could have proved he was the one and he ended up third on the FS. Now somoene mentioned Joubert was injured, but honestly who isn't now? Look at Lambiel he has had what 2 knee surgeries? He will never be healthy from that, all of them are always injured, that's how FS has always been.

While I felt completely out of place and horrible timing Candeloro's comment (pretty much on Joubert's face) that Brian won because he had none to compete against with, he hwas pretty much spot on.

If this season he proves consistency, then great because I'm not fan of Joubert BUT I do think he is as close as what a complete skater should be, he has now the Presentation marks and the SP proved that he finally fixed his only "bad" jump that was the lutz. Everyone says Lambiel and Buttle as "complete" skaters and I know it's not all about the jumps, but it's annoying that they both win events or place so high without a 3ax that it's a jump that the men had been landing for over a decade now.

First of all, Joubert had competition but his competitors were either unmotivated and not ready for the big time, or they are inconsistent like Dai is....That's not Joubert's fault. I mean Plushenko was in the same situation.

As for if Joubert will be as dominant as Plushenko I think time will tell. If Joubert keeps on delivering clean performances, and well keeps on winning worlds, then eventually, I think he'll start getting more respect marks.

I totally agree to that as nice as Lambiel is to watch, not having a 3 axel is glaring. One could have argued that Joubert should have won the 2006 Worlds.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I totally agree to that as nice as Lambiel is to watch, not having a 3 axel is glaring. One could have argued that Joubert should have won the 2006 Worlds.

No there will never be an argument for Joubert deserving to win any event he does not win. He is extremely overmarked as it is, so he certainly will never deserve to win an event he did not win. Lambiel actually got a bogus downgraded on a jump that cost him 4.2 points and still won by about 3 points.