Could one of the Russian ladies become the best ladies skater EVER next season?

[FelineFairy]

You can't compare a skater now to a skater from Yuna's time. Think about the expectation alone; would Yuna have tried to land quads if that was the expectation and she had the means to do so (she was practicing triple axels, so it's not that far off anyway)? When she started skating, no one was thinking about women doing quads. I can tell you for sure I wouldn't be bruising my ass every time I get on the ice trying to get a double axel if it wasn't a requirement to do well in competition. And think about technology. Throughout her formative years, Yuna wore skates that did not fit her because there were no good skate shops near where she lived. This was common in her era and still is common now though to a lesser extent as figure skating is become more accessible and skaters are becoming more educated. Boots have also gotten so much lighter since Yuna debuted in 2007 as have blades. The scoring system has also changed throughout the years.

And can you compare Yuna to Katarina Witt? And Katarina to Peggy Fleming? And Peggy to Sonja Henie? Sorry, but emphasizing so much Yuna among all those great skaters of THEIR time makes no sense. They all were the best of best, they all had difficulties and problems. The current champions are not better and not worse in this respect. And I assure you that in 10 years (hope we all can talk at that time again) there will be more GREAT skaters of THEIR TIME named. Who and how many, no one can say now. From a 10 years perspective we will see who of the current champions gets the real claim to fame. It is definitely premature now to say that are already great. But they have the potential of being great. Even if they reign in one Olympic cycle. Times change, it looks like it will not be possible to reign in more. And no one will ever be really the greatest of all times, because times change, tastes change, etc.etc.

 

[Skatesocs]

Euclid's Elements is the most influential secular book of all time, having been in continuous publication through more than 1000 editions ever since the invention of the printing press. It presented the model for logical thinking that still reigns two thousand years after its creation.

One might delineate the purpose of the book, of course, and might look at different criteria. I see what you're saying here, that someone who invented jump technique or the first Long Program ever performed might be the "greatest" performance ever. But still one might want to look at a different time frame, where we start seeing "modern" programs by FS standards, and then judge. Similar to how one might indeed say the first film ever made is the "most influential", but it still served a different purpose than the films that have been made since the 1960s, let's say.

Second best: War and Peace, Tolstoy. ( A shout-out to Russian men.)

The Idiot, by Dostoevsky deserves a shout-out, wouldn't you say

 

[gliese]

And can you compare Yuna to Katarina Witt? And Katarina to Peggy Fleming? And Peggy to Sonja Henie? Sorry, but emphasizing so much Yuna among all those great skaters of THEIR time makes no sense. They all were the best of best, they all had difficulties and problems. The current champions are not better and not worse in this respect. And I assure you that in 10 years (hope we all can talk at that time again) there will be more GREAT skaters of THEIR TIME named. Who and how many, no one can say now. From a 10 years perspective we will see who of the current champions gets the real claim to fame. It is definitely premature now to say that are already great. But they have the potential of being great. Even if they reign in one Olympic cycle. Times change, it looks like it will not be possible to reign in more. And no one will ever be really the greatest of all times, because times change, tastes change, etc.etc.

Exactly. I just used Yuna because so many people here have regarded her as the greatest of all time.

 

[Mista Ekko]

None of the Ladies are in a position atm to achieve something like that in the eyes of the world,

There has been less international appeal to the sport and no chances to gain reputation
due to the pandemic, Plus there seems to be a longevity problem in this field
that would prevent from creating a consensus around just one competitor,

I don't think the likes of Wit, Kwan or Kim are in danger of having someone more associated
with the sport than them by this time next year,

But the Russian Ladies can achieve a lot of "firsts" in Beijing nonetheless, And
make a lot of noise.

 

[zounger]

Next season no. There are a couple of criteria to be considered to be called the greatest, quads can be one of them. For the rest, the current skaters are not better neither from recent, neither from far past skaters.

 

[Dawn825]

Next season no. There are a couple of criteria to be considered to be called the greatest, quads can be one of them. For the rest, the current skaters are not better neither from recent, neither from far past skaters.

Agreed with the exception of flexibility, all those needle and I-spins are remarkable.

 

[Gabby30]

Would Zagitova or Medvedeva return to competition with all the jumps and consistency from their most successful time and be on the podium at the next olympics ( not even winning), then they could consider themselves to be one of the greatest in Russian skating, next to Slutskaya. And i don't like any of them 3. But fancy jumps like quads don't make you automatically great.
Even Adelina, with her short career, had more success than the current starlets. Even when her Olympic gold is seen as doubtful by many people, she still is a 4-time national champion and 2-time European silver medalist, with huge jumps. None of the current skaters can claim that about themselves

 

[Shayuki]

Would Zagitova or Medvedeva return to competition with all the jumps and consistency from their most successful time and be on the podium at the next olympics ( not even winning), then they could consider themselves to be one of the greatest in Russian skating, next to Slutskaya. And i don't like any of them 3. But fancy jumps like quads don't make you automatically great.
Even Adelina, with her short career, had more success than the current starlets. Even when her Olympic gold is seen as doubtful by many people, she still is a 4-time national champion and 2-time European silver medalist, with huge jumps. None of the current skaters can claim that about themselves

Well, quads pretty automatically do make you an all-time great. Just look at Nathan Chen. He's an all-time great skater, and why? His spins? Skating skills? Let's not kid ourselves.

When it comes to ladies, let's take Midori Ito. She's considered one of the all-time greats. Was it her musicality? Spins? Skating skills? No, she jumped triple axels.

 

[Dawn825]

If quads automatically made you an all-time great, there are dozens of boys and girls doing quads now whose names we don't even know who would be considered all-time greats. The reason why Nathan would get into that category (if the category is one of the GOATs, not the GOAT, obvs Hanyu is there too) is the combination of doing more quads than anyone else (all 5 in a single program) with almost perfect consistency and almost perfect technique. None of the girls so far have shown anything close to that.

 

[Zora]

You can't compare a skater now to a skater from Yuna's time. Think about the expectation alone; would Yuna have tried to land quads if that was the expectation and she had the means to do so (she was practicing triple axels, so it's not that far off anyway)? When she started skating, no one was thinking about women doing quads.

Miki Ando competed with a 4S against Yuna. Mao Asada had the 3A. Both also had 3Loop combinations. But back then perfect technique was everything. An underrotated jump meant a full downgrade, so it wasn't worth the risk. There was some pressure for Yuna to learn the 3A, I think that's why she switched to Orser. But it turned out that she didn't need it because of her good technique.

 

[Shayuki]

If quads automatically made you an all-time great, there are dozens of boys and girls doing quads now whose names we don't even know who would be considered all-time greats. The reason why Nathan would get into that category (if the category is one of the GOATs, not the GOAT, obvs Hanyu is there too) is the combination of doing more quads than anyone else (all 5 in a single program) with almost perfect consistency and almost perfect technique. None of the girls so far have shown anything close to that.

Sure, men and ladies are in different stages in terms of skating. Point was, jumps alone can make a skater one of the all-time greats. Or at least in very large a part. Main obstacle with that is Yuzuru Hanyu existing, I guess.

 

[[email protected]]

The reason, to me, why this argument is not totally convincing is that it tacitly assumes that the only thing on the table is how manty quads and triple Axe;s a skater does.

While the number of revolutions that the current crop is capable of squeezing into a 4-minute program is, indeed, insane, in a competitive sport there is only one thing -- winning. Nothing else really counts. Yes, the competition might be stronger or weaker one year than another, but the GOAT is the one who is left standing at the top of the hill having taken ol all comers, competition after competition and year after year.

(On the other hand, I suppose one could say, "Just because a person is king for a long time doesn't mean that he was a good king. Example: Mikhail Botvinnik was world chess champion almost continually from 1948 to 1963. But you would have to be a real chess nerd not to find his style boring. )

I would say Ivan Lendl. Chess is a specific example so that very few people would distinguish between boring and not boring. Well, there are clear outliers like Paul Murphy or Michael Tal but other than that you either have to be a big expert or.... watch Queens gambit where the Russian player was referred to as the embodiment of being boring unlike the invented American "wonder girl"

 

[TallyT]

Medvedeva and Zagitova both got higher scores than Yuna/Michelle/Kristi/Mao/Midori etc could, and yes, had more jumps and a higher jumping technical content. On top of that, Medvedeva has a massive international medal total, has the historic WRs, was unbeaten for 2 years, has back to back grand slams, and her Olympic FS looks like being an iconic program even if it didn't win (it's certainly more memorable if less technically impressive than anything the more recent Russian girls have skated). Zagitova was only at the top a couple of seasons and therefore less of those medals and records and firsts, but has the OGM and Career Super Grand Slam (one of only two ladies, Valieva might get it in the future?). But they seem to be both thought as 'one of the probable GOATS' and even then after Yuna/Michelle/Midori/Sonja Henie/maybe Mao and several of the historic names. And Valieva, Kostornaia, Shcherbakova etc have yet to make the expected blitz internationally (for the ones already senior, through no fault of their own but the history books don't include but and maybe and if only).

And - though I know I said I wouldn't mention the men, I clearly lied. I'm going to throw something out, and bear with me, this is not just to hype him but to make a point...

Yuzuru Hanyu has
- 22 international medals including 12 gold. 2 being those OGM, one of only two living men to have that
- 19 world records, the most under IJS in his discipline, including the full set of 3 historic which by their own definition cannot be surpassed
- was the first to break the 100 SP, 200 FS and 300 overall
- is the only man in history to have the Career Super Grand Slam
- has been number 1 in the world standings 6 times in a time of massive depth and advances
- has more programs considered iconic than any other current male skater and this despite repeating his favourites
- is the world's most popular skater both in his own country and internationally and brings in more fans, fame and income to the sport than any other

And yet there are quite a number of critics and skating fans who argue, not just that he is not the greatest (which is an opinion anyone is entitled to even if I disagree) but he doesn't honestly merit being called one of the very greatest of all time, that pretty much every one of his major rivals has had a better claim. I imagine the same is true of Plushenko, Dick Button or any of the other men with glittering careers.

So what would one of the Russian girls have to do to be crowned greatest? Probably be twice as athletic as Valieva, twice as artistic as Kim, and at the top twice as long as Kwan. And then it would still be disputed....

 

[Thrashergurl]

But you’re comparing different judging systems. Zagitova might not have won under the 6.0 where the overall quality of skating was rewarded. Also, the judging and tiles for COP have also changed over the years.

 

[TallyT]

But you’re comparing different judging systems. Zagitova might not have won under the 6.0 where the overall quality of skating was rewarded. Also, the judging and tiles for COP have also changed over the years.

True, but of all time means just that, of all time, whether or not things have changed. And - had she been skating under 6.0 she would have trained for that so may have been a very different - but equally successful - skater.

 

[gliese]

Miki Ando competed with a 4S against Yuna. Mao Asada had the 3A. Both also had 3Loop combinations. But back then perfect technique was everything. An underrotated jump meant a full downgrade, so it wasn't worth the risk. There was some pressure for Yuna to learn the 3A, I think that's why she switched to Orser. But it turned out that she didn't need it because of her good technique.

This is all true for sure, but when Yuna started skating there was little expectation for quads. Even later in her career, quads for women were not a requirement to win as Miki Ando rarely landed hers and Yuna could have beat her PCS and technique in general in her sleep. And of course, as you said, would not have been worth the risk at the time for sure.

 

[TontoK]

Well, quads pretty automatically do make you an all-time great. Just look at Nathan Chen. He's an all-time great skater, and why? His spins? Skating skills? Let's not kid ourselves.

When it comes to ladies, let's take Midori Ito. She's considered one of the all-time greats. Was it her musicality? Spins? Skating skills? No, she jumped triple axels.

I very much enjoy Nathan Chen, and I like what he brings to the sport. He's exciting. I prefer his skating to other men currently competing.

I certainly consider him a great skater... but an "all-time great"? No. But I think he could be. Time will tell.

As for Midori Ito, she brought a lot more to the ice than just jumps. Her Calgary free program was an athletic triumph, to be sure, but it was also one of the most joyous and free performances I've ever seen. Her personality glistened throughout. I don't think she ever achieved that again... the pressure of national expectations weighed heavily, but it was the hope of seeing more that made me a fan. It was glorious.

 

[icybear]

Medvedeva and Zagitova both got higher scores than Yuna/Michelle/Kristi/Mao/Midori etc could, and yes, had more jumps and a higher jumping technical content. On top of that, Medvedeva has a massive international medal total, has the historic WRs, was unbeaten for 2 years, has back to back grand slams, and her Olympic FS looks like being an iconic program even if it didn't win (it's certainly more memorable if less technically impressive than anything the more recent Russian girls have skated). Zagitova was only at the top a couple of seasons and therefore less of those medals and records and firsts, but has the OGM and Career Super Grand Slam (one of only two ladies, Valieva might get it in the future?). But they seem to be both thought as 'one of the probable GOATS' and even then after Yuna/Michelle/Midori/Sonja Henie/maybe Mao and several of the historic names. And Valieva, Kostornaia, Shcherbakova etc have yet to make the expected blitz internationally (for the ones already senior, through no fault of their own but the history books don't include but and maybe and if only).

And - though I know I said I wouldn't mention the men, I clearly lied. I'm going to throw something out, and bear with me, this is not just to hype him but to make a point...

Yuzuru Hanyu has
- 22 international medals including 12 gold. 2 being those OGM, one of only two living men to have them
- 19 world records, including the full set of 3 historic which by their own definition cannot be surpassed
- was the first to break the 100 SP, 200 FS and 300 overall
- is the only man in history to have the Career Super Grand Slam
- has been number 1 in the world standings 6 times in a time of massive depth
- has more programs considered iconic than any other current male skater and this despite repeating his favourites
- is the world's most popular skater both in his own country and internationally and brings in more fans, fame and income to the sport than any other

And yet there are quite a number of critics and skating fans who argue, not just that he is not the greatest (which is fair enough even if I disagree) but he doesn't honestly merit being called one of the very greatest of all time, that pretty much every one of his major rivals has had a better claim. I imagine the same is true of Plushenko, Dick Button or any of the other men with glittering careers.

So what would one of the Russian girls have to do to be crowned greatest? Probably be twice as athletic as Valieva, twice as artistic as Kim, and at the top twice as long as Kwan. And then it would still be disputed....

Well you cant expect everyone to bow down to your favorite skater esp if they're a fan of a rival. There's no point getting worked up just because a fan of a rival skater doesnt praise your idol. Its to be expected and you cant force them to conform to your opinions.

 

[TallyT]

Well you cant expect everyone to bow down to your favorite skater esp if they're a fan of a rival. There's no point getting worked up just because a fan of a rival skater doesnt praise your idol. Its to be expected and you cant force them to conform to your opinions.

I'm not - as I said (and you austerely overlooked?) I was making a point about the whole OP's whole question, which was could one of the Russian ladies become the (accepted) best ever and what would it take. And my point was, it's hard enough to get critics/fans/anyone at all to agree on who merits the label 'one of the greatest', let alone The One And Only Lonely at the Top. I could also mention Evan Lysacek, whose record is actually pretty damn good (better than I was led to think from the general commentary) but whose is pretty much never remembered in these arguments.

Let Kostornaia, Valieva and the others get to a point where their names pop up when the press and people here and elsewhere are discussing that mythical Hall of Utter Fame first, shall we? I honestly believe at least one of the Russian girls will do it, but would not even dream of laying odds on who at this stage, and she'll have to achieve a lot more than they seem to have time for.

​

 

[rollerblade]

People will go with whichever narratives they want. It's the same way Aljona Savchenko is on the "best ever" list, but Szolkowy and Massot are not.