2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[dhjh811]

Hey. It was just my opinion, nothing else...what is disrespectful about it? That I don't share your opnion?

A rant on why a skater is nothing special, their strengths are entirely the work of the coach, look at where she is now. If you don't know why this is disrespectful... Yeah, might as well just call people in everyday life fat and ugly and untalented because you think it's true. You can write a whole rant analyzing why you think someone is nothing special. It's just your opinion, so no need for anyone to be offended, right? What is the thought process needed to kick someone while they're down? This isn't even an objective post of her weaknesses, just "she is the ultimate eteri product"... jfc

 

[Jontor]

General question, would you prefer a coach that disguises technical weaknesses to achieve quicker success, or a coach that corrects these specific weaknesses but causes the skater's scores to suffer for a while till they get better? I am not alluding to TT vs AOP or claiming they fall into either category, by the way (and it's not an absolute dichotomy either).

Are there any examples of the latter coaching approach? Perhaps Mao Asada post-Vancouver - did that pay off, though?

Interesting question. I guess for me I think I would prefer to correct the weaknesses instead of hiding them. Good tech is the basis of my admiration of figure skating. But it's hard though, and very individual in case to case. The tech isn't everything, and I love quite a few skaters that don't have it. And the question is...is it worth it to correct the tech if that means no success?

 

[chasingneverland]

Surely the all powerful Russian fed can do something to save Alena from Yana the debt collector. There's a rumour that Alena uncle is Alexander Lakernik, the guy involved in masterminding Adelina sochi win. Surely he can work his magic for a much greater cause this time.

If they care to. That also sets a dangerous precedent. Are they now going to pay for the expenses of all their skaters?

The national team already gets a stripend.

And this isn't Evgenia who wanted to train with Orser. That's different as she has far more earning power.

Aliona has done, comparatively, nothing. Right now Aliona's senior resume doesn't read much different than Sofia S's (with the exception of one GPF title.)

 

[Fantik]

Aliona has done, comparatively, nothing.

Seriously? She is the reigning European and Grand Prix champion. You, on the other hand...

 

[chasingneverland]

A rant on why a skater is nothing special, their strengths are entirely the work of the coach, look at where she is now. If you don't know why this is disrespectful... Yeah, might as well just call people in everyday life fat and ugly and untalented because you think it's true. You can write a whole rant analyzing why you think someone is nothing special. It's just your opinion, so no need for anyone to be offended, right? What is the thought process needed to kick someone while they're down? This isn't even an objective post of her weaknesses, just "she is the ultimate eteri product"... jfc

No. I love Aliona but I don't think it's disrespectful.

Calling someone "fat and ugly and untalented" is completely different than what happened here. First of all, because the public isn't being judged by what they present as part of a sport. Second of all, because those aren't objective measures.

And their argument was well thought out.

You can disagree. I do.

But that doesn't mean it was disrespectful. Disrespectful would be talking about her character or things that have nothing to do with her product on the ice. But packaging is very much a part of a skater's scores - and a big part of their PCS. So it's reasonable to look at. And obviously there are some biases but their are also biases with your response as well.

 

[chasingneverland]

Seriously? She is the reigning European and Grand Prix champion. You, on the other hand...

First of all, she's not in comparison with me. (Also you don't even know who I am and what constitutes success in my chosen career. Not to mention that has nothing to do with the scope of the discussion.)

However, that statement was a comparison with Evgenia. And she doesn't have close to Evgenia's resume. That's objectively true.

Secondly, I followed that with saying that her senior international resume is, at this stage, more comparable to Sofia S. So there I did acknowledge her European title - they both have one hence the comparison. I also said with the exception of her (Aliona's) GPF title.

Reading comprehension is key, I think. Try to work on it rather than jumping to conclusions.

 

[dhjh811]

No. I love Aliona but I don't think it's disrespectful.

Calling someone "fat and ugly and untalented" is completely different than what happened here. First of all, because the public isn't being judged by what they present as part of a sport. Second of all, because those aren't objective measures.

And their argument was well thought out.

You can disagree. I do.

But that doesn't mean it was disrespectful. Disrespectful would be talking about her character or things that have nothing to do with her product on the ice. But packaging is very much a part of a skater's scores - and a big part of their PCS. So it's reasonable to look at. And obviously there are some biases but their are also biases with your response as well.

Ok, but what if someone were to write an analysis of why someone is unattractive, and they only look decent because of makeup? Why is that any different from what's happening here? She's a figure skater, and skating is something she is judged on and a huge part of her life. And someone here is writing an analysis of why her talents are nothing special without Eteri. Without Eteri, she's nothing great, yup.
People are judged on their attractiveness the moment they walk outside, so I guess it would be ok for someone to present someone else with a summary of why they are unattractive. Why not go to models and tell them, without your agency you are nothing. You don't look good enough.

My point is, why even go about pointing out her weaknesses this way? Why not just, idk, point out her weaknesses without adding all this "nothing special without Eteri"?? It honestly just seems like they want to kick her when she's already down, and it's a HUGE insult to say to any person in any profession that they would be nothing without _____.

As someone who supposedly loves Aliona, do you not find it weird that someone thinks that all her strengths are in thanks only to her coach and that she is the ultimate "product" of her coach? How is calling someone a product not disrespectful?

 

[Fantik]

First of all, she's not in comparison with me. (Also you don't even know who I am and what constitutes success in my chosen career. Not to mention that has nothing to do with the scope of the discussion.)

However, that statement was a comparison with Evgenia. And she doesn't have close to Evgenia's resume. That's objectively true.

Secondly, I followed that with saying that her senior international resume is, at this stage, more comparable to Sofia S. So there I did acknowledge her European title - they both have one hence the comparison. I also said with the exception of her (Aliona's) GPF title.

Reading comprehension is key, I think. Try to work on it rather than jumping to conclusions.

LoL! With exception of course

 

[chasingneverland]

Interesting question. I guess for me I think I would prefer to correct the weaknesses instead of hiding them. Good tech is the basis of my admiration of figure skating. But it's hard though, and very individual in case to case. The tech isn't everything, and I love quite a few skaters that don't have it. And the question is...is it worth it to correct the tech if that means no success?

I think a good coach will try to do both. That applies, of course, to any weakness - not just the one in question.

I think a good coach will address weaknesses - as ultimately that translates to points. But a good coach will also present the skater - and programs, costumes, layout, etc are all part of that - in such a way that highlights their strengths while hiding their weaknesses - as judges are human and that also translates to points. And obviously some things are way easier to correct than others and some may never be corrected - at least not under the pressure of competition - and progress isn't always linear but that's probably the goal.

 

[silveruskate]

Hey. It was just my opinion, nothing else...what is disrespectful about it? That I don't share your opnion?

Uhhh or it could just be disrespectful.... I already said it: throwing the efforts of the skater out of the window and calling them a product.

Why not forget all the hard work the skaters put in? It's so easy for us sitting here. Travelling 2.5 hours, then participating in rigorous physical activity the whole day, and then 2.5 hours back, 6 days a week. A piece of cake.

The amount of mental fortitude and dedication needed is ridiculous. Other skaters are praised for climbing up the ranks from down in the depths, but no not Aliona. Just a typical product at work.

 

[Magill]

Magill might just like Plushenko a smidge bit more than Aliona

all things aside, Yana a multimillionaire certainly isn’t going broke if she lets Aliona off the hook. She’s doing so purely out of cruelty.

I happened to be on the side of about-to-be-broke talented girl rather than multimillionaire couple, who are about to take all her pennies, sorry for being one-sided. Hard to feel sorry for these extremely rich people, wearing Dior head-to-toe and their gang of lawyers, when they’re demanding money from an average family! So guilty of that bias!

It has nothing to do with liking or disliking Plushenko on my part. It is all to do with me liking people to keep contracts they sign and not judging contracts they have never seen. We do not know even why and what for and how much. A trap is something which is deceptive, disguised, ill-willed. If there is a straightforward separation clause which is reasonable, then calling it a trap is being, yes, one-sided. You have clauses like that in any contract. If you have signed a contract and then you act like you never did, and someone calls you out on it, then you might feel trapped, but it is a trap of your own making. I feel a lot of sympathy for Alyona but .. She really should have been more careful knowing she had a contract with them. And she did not exactly make them feel very comfortable about her leaving, either, which in her position was just asking for trouble. We do not know what the other conditions were, how long she should have stayed with them or what the notice was for the termination of this contract, Not knowing this it is just very difficult to say whether the contract was a trap or a fair deal she just blew up.
Now, could they let her off the hook? That would be very noble of them. Somehow I still hope it will happen. That they just need time to "think", the way Eteri did.

 

[Jontor]

Uhhh or it could just be disrespectful.... I already said it: throwing the efforts of the skater out of the window and calling them a product.

Why not forget all the hard work the skaters put in? It's so easy for us sitting here. Travelling 2.5 hours, then participating in rigorous physical activity the whole day, and then 2.5 hours back, 6 days a week. A piece of cake.

The amount of mental fortitude and dedication needed is ridiculous. Other skaters are praised for climbing up the ranks from down in the depths, but no not Aliona. Just a typical product at work.

Fair enough. But I think you misunderstand me. Eteri did fantastic work with Alyona in just 10 months in 2017, but obviously Alyona had to be there and do the work. Otherwise the results would not be there. That's a given. What I'm saying is that it was a match made in heaven and I think Alyona lost it when she left...

 

[chasingneverland]

Ok, but what if someone were to write an analysis of why someone is unattractive, and they only look decent because of makeup? Why is that any different from what's happening here? She's a figure skater, and skating is a huge part of her life. And someone here is writing an analysis of why her talents are nothing special without Eteri. Without Eteri, she's nothing great, yup.
People are judged on their attractiveness the moment they walk outside, so I guess it would be ok for someone to present someone else with a summary of why they are unattractive. Why not go to models and tell them, without your agency you are nothing. You don't look good enough.

Well because that's completely different.

You writing an analysis on why someone is attractive has no bearing - other than to hurt them potentially? - on most people's lives. While it has some unconscious biases it has no dirrect relation on most people's careers so it's completely different.

Also makeups very purpose is to enhance beauty and create illusions - that's the whole point!

Aliona's skating is very much a part of her career and therefore a completely different situation. That's the point. So you can look at how she became who she is as a skater and those aspects. And part of that is her time with Eteri.

And yes, people are judged the moment they step outside - but that's a different. And I don't understand why you don't understand the difference. One is a career.

Judging Aliona on her skating skills and how much of that is because of Eteri is like critiquing an architect on their building and understanding that they are a product and seeing the influence of their school. It's like knowing doctors, lawyers etc are very much a product of their place of education.

For models that is a fair criticism. As their appearance is a part of their careers - which isn't true for the general populace. Also it's incredibly naive to think models are completely separate entities from their agencies. Their agencies are in fact a large part, acting as representation, liaisons, and promotion. For that matter, their hair and makeup teams are also crucial components of their "products".

 

[Amei]

If they care to. That also sets a dangerous precedent. Are they now going to pay for the expenses of all their skaters?

The national team already gets a stripend.

And this isn't Evgenia who wanted to train with Orser. That's different as she has far more earning power.

Aliona has done, comparatively, nothing. Right now Aliona's senior resume doesn't read much different than Sofia S's (with the exception of one GPF title.)

I believe when it was announced that Medvedeva went to Orser the Fed stated that she was going to get the same amount of stipend money as any other member of the national team, any additional fees would be on Medvedeva to pay. And agree, the Fed stepping in and paying the separation amount that a skater agreed to with a private business would be a really bad precedent. I think at most the Fed should offer her up her National team stipend for next year up to assist in covering the separation fee owed to AoP, but that means that any cost of training next year is on Kostornaia to pay out of her own pocket.

 

[Fantik]

Well because that's completely different.

You writing an analysis on why someone is attractive has no bearing - other than to hurt them potentially? - on most people's lives. While it has some unconscious biases it has no dirrect relation on most people's careers so it's completely different.

Also makeups very purpose is to enhance beauty and create illusions - that's the whole point!

Aliona's skating is very much a part of her career and therefore a completely different situation. That's the point. So you can look at how she became who she is as a skater and those aspects. And part of that is her time with Eteri.

And yes, people are judged the moment they step outside - but that's a different. And I don't understand why you don't understand the difference. One is a career.

Judging Aliona on her skating skills and how much of that is because of Eteri is like critiquing an architect on their building and understanding that they are a product and seeing the influence of their school. It's like knowing doctors, lawyers etc are very much a product of their place of education.

For models that is a fair criticism. As their appearance is a part of their careers - which isn't true for the general populace. Also it's incredibly naive to think models are completely separate entities from their agencies. Their agencies are in fact a large part, acting as representation, liaisons, and promotion. For that matter, their hair and makeup teams are also crucial components of their "products".

 

[chasingneverland]

As someone who supposedly loves Aliona, do you not find it weird that someone thinks that all her strengths are in thanks only to her coach and that she is the ultimate "product" of her coach? How is calling someone a product not disrespectful?

Because people are allowed to disagree with me. And what skaters - all of them - put on the ice is a product. It's a presentation. It's packaged in such a way to obtain maximum points within a certain code. That dictates program layout, etc.

 

[Paulipau]

Secondly, I followed that with saying that her senior international resume is, at this stage, more comparable to Sofia S.

Man, there is a difference between winning one important competion just simply because everyone else bombs big time and dominating whole season..

 

[chasingneverland]

I believe when it was announced that Medvedeva went to Orser the Fed stated that she was going to get the same amount of stipend money as any other member of the national team, any additional fees would be on Medvedeva to pay. And agree, the Fed stepping in and paying the separation amount that a skater agreed to with a private business would be a really bad precedent. I think at most the Fed should offer her up her National team stipend for next year up to assist in covering the separation fee owed to AoP, but that means that any cost of training next year is on Kostornaia to pay out of her own pocket.

Exactly. That's what I meant. Evgenia had the income to support it. And has the appeal to continue to do so. That isn't true for Aliona who doesn't have Evgenia's resume.

The issue with that is of course, next year. And that also sets up a dangerous precedent that you can take advances on your stripend which isn't financially sustainable for the Fed.

 

[dhjh811]

Well because that's completely different.

You writing an analysis on why someone is attractive has no bearing - other than to hurt them potentially? - on most people's lives. While it has some unconscious biases it has no dirrect relation on most people's careers so it's completely different.

Also makeups very purpose is to enhance beauty and create illusions - that's the whole point!

Aliona's skating is very much a part of her career and therefore a completely different situation. That's the point. So you can look at how she became who she is as a skater and those aspects. And part of that is her time with Eteri.

And yes, people are judged the moment they step outside - but that's a different. And I don't understand why you don't understand the difference. One is a career.

Judging Aliona on her skating skills and how much of that is because of Eteri is like critiquing an architect on their building and understanding that they are a product and seeing the influence of their school. It's like knowing doctors, lawyers etc are very much a product of their place of education.

For models that is a fair criticism. As their appearance is a part of their careers - which isn't true for the general populace. Also it's incredibly naive to think models are completely separate entities from their agencies. Their agencies are in fact a large part, acting as representation, liaisons, and promotion. For that matter, their hair and makeup teams are also crucial components of their "products".

Ok, but could you still explain how it's not offensive that they chose to write it in that way? It's one thing to recognize that Eteri is a large part of why she was so successful and that they were a good pair. It's another thing to write about her as a product and her talents in skating as nothing special without Eteri. Why not just go about discussing what they perceive to be her weaknesses without adding the part of how they never felt she was anything special without Eteri? Don't you realize that they're completely invalidating her own merits and her innate abilities in doing so?

I guess you would consider any and all criticism pertaining to one's profession fair. I don't agree with that, but you do you.

 

[chasingneverland]

Man, there is a difference between winning one important competion just simply because everyone else bombs big time and dominating whole season..

Aliona didn't dominate though. Everytime she won Sasha and Anna fell. The one time Anna didn't, Aliona didn't win.

And regardless, I'm not talking about her resume as much as I'm talking about her ability to command a widespread audience and her purchasing power, as it were. That's tied to her resume and accomplishments. And she doesn't even have a World's title much less Evgenia's Olympic accomplishments to ensure she has the funding to support herself.