2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Amei]

I thought none of Aliona's four programs was really bad and while they lacked some wow factor, I think she presented them all beautifully, but she certainly had some stamina problems.

I thought the last 2 programs were better than the first 2, and considering she didn't appear to be 100% and they were the first competition I think they could have been improved. Given the coaching change I would be surprised if we see them again

I thought none of Aliona's four programs was really bad and while they lacked some wow factor, I think she presented them all beautifully, but she certainly had some stamina problems.
Many people said they were too empty, but I don't think busy programs are the one and only approach to high PCS. Carolina Kostner never had those crazy transitions and still she had the highest PCS, whether you agree with this or not. Same applies to Osmond I think.

Well I think we can all agree that PCS is very subjective and has generally been the place we see reputation scoring show up. There was a grand prix event or maybe europeans in 2018 where she skated pretty bad in the FS and still got a pretty good score and Johnny Weir made a comment after the score came up referencing Kostner being 'supported' for the Olympics...the jest of his comment was that the judges were extremely gracious with her scoring because she was a favorite. That's just 1 example I'm sure we could blow up the forum if everyone chimed in with examples of where skaters got a PCS score based on something other than what was actually put down on the ice...if someone wants to open that can of worms they should open a thread for it though. Note, that won't be me

Love his choreography or not, Daniil's transition heavy programs and the consistency that their new-seniors win/place well with them usually leads to really good PCS scoring.

 

[Scott512]

Because that was last season. And even before this season and Kamila's debut it was apparent that one or all of the 3A would not make it. Even just looking historically.

It means someone did. Not Eteri. Probably Aliona's family or someone for them. (Or some arrangement was worked out.)

It's going to be United credible Olympic season and let's hope covid19 goes the hell away.

The TSL guys say the PA charges to alyona were $560000. Lol. I don't believe that but why not shoot for the moon if you are Yana?

I think Sunday is a-day off at TT so I hope alyona enjoyed her day off because this is going to be a tough week for her she's going to have to get back into TT type shape.

 

[rollerblade]

Which version of Girl on a Ball? The earlier iteration from 2018 was a lot better (imo!).

 

[Skatesocs]

The TSL guys say the PA charges to alyona were $560000.

560000 is probably more than the number of neurons between them.

 

[Fantik]

I disliked "Girl on a Ball". Everyone was proclaiming how incredible it was, but I just saw a thousand leg extensions. Although most people and judges didn't agree.

I thought that many extensions in the Picasso piece emphasized girlishness of the character and therefore were appropriate. Not so much in Kamila's other programs where her leg galore is happening at the expense of other meaningful step combinations.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Mr. Tsiskaridze is not a choreographer. He is, or rather was, an outstanding dancer and a scholar of classical ballet. He staged, or rather, restaged few pieces of great masters of the past for students at the Ballet Academy. That doesn't make him" a great talent in choreography"

He did choreograph some lost pieces, like the one I sent extracts of, which score and memories are lost, in the Petipa style and in order to "sell" his students as best as he can because his/their objective is to please great ballet directors/recruiters to get admitted in them. And the soloist parts are adapted to the casting of the day, with the same objective (and that of not risking an injury, particularly of his best and youngest male student, who had a serious one the next year when at Mariinsky and passed most of his first Mariinsky year at home in Chicago )
So there is much in common with a figure skating choreographer.
The other ballets of this graduation performance he only staged them indeed.
Well, sorry I was a bit out-of-topic. After all, as far as I know he never commented on figure skating.
Natalia Osipova is not the classical Russian ballerina but she's a great dancer and her opinion is certainly worthy.

@Scott512
Maybe they added a zero to the number? Or fancied what an American coaching team would have charged? To speak again of Vaganova Academy, international students (so, not state-funded) are charged 17.000$/year, boarding included... Most go to special international trainee groups, but the best ones go to the "real" main Vaganova classes, and get parts, choreography, costumes and all.
Prices are not the same in US and in Russia...

 

[rollerblade]

I think Sunday is a-day off at TT so I hope alyona enjoyed her day off

 

[Flying Feijoa]

You need to read what else I have written in the thread on this topic after that post.

The simple point is that no dance choreographer is going to hold it to the standard of dance.

In fact, we've seen a ballet dancer *praise* Valieva's Bolero. I hardly think it's because she doesn't know ballet.

Might be worth mentioning that dancers and choreographers in the ballet world can hardly agree with themselves on who and what is 'good'.
The same dancer (Osipova) who praised Bolero has many devoted fans (she's a very powerful jumper and turner) but also a lot of critics who find her unrefined and inappropriately dramatic in certain roles. It's not just arts critics who have varying opinions - Xander Parish, considered an unexceptional corps member at the Royal Ballet, was picked up by the Mariinsky and fast-tracked to principal status. So the dance world has widely variable tastes and those members who choose to weigh in on skating aren't automatically superior to a clued-up skating fan (and as you say, they aren't trying to hold it to their standard).

 

[Scott512]

That's really good blade. And that's true no days off. But if Alyona got a day off today I'm happy. She needed it.

 

[Scott512]

560000 is probably more than the number of neurons between them.

Lol.

But between who Yana and Evgeni or the TSL guys?

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

LoL! Overhyped and oversold, if you like. No comparison to "Girl on a Ball" piece (sorry, don't know who choreographed it), which is full of genuine poetry.

Again! I disagree. Well, as a whole I guess I feel the same about both programs. I really liked Kamila's Girl on the Ball when she was a novice because I guess it was just very different from what all her competitors were putting out but honestly once she turned junior I stopped loving it as much. The idea behind it is genius, I will admit, and she hits some gorgeous positions too, but she is doing way too much and doing it way too fast for my liking. The first part of the music is really slow but the choreography packs five thousand movements into the silence which makes absolutely no sense to me. IMO, I think that SP is overhyped and oversold but I know most don't agree.

Conversely, Alyona's choreo is far too lacking. She barely does any transitions into or out of her elements in the FS. So, I feel like to me at least, these are the two extremes of choreography in Russian ladies. Either too packed or too empty. My favorite programs are in the happy between, aka Daria's SP, Kamila's SP, Sasha's SP, Samodelkina's FS, Adelya's FS, Muravyova's SP (it's a bit packed but the music is dramatic so I think it works fine anyways), Anna's SP last season etc etc.

Of course I know I'm in the minority about Kamila's program. Everyone really loves it, which I can understand! But I personally don't and that's not because I have an agenda against Kamila (again, I've said I liked it when she was a novice, and I do like her SP a lot this season), it's just because I don't find that the choreography and the execution of the choreography matched the mood of the piece. Out of the juniors that season, I think Kseniia's SP was the best, but of course each to one's own.

I'm just saying, you shouldn't say "Alyona's FS is a piece of trash" just because you personally don't like it. Others do like it, and it's not because they're blind or stupid or whatever, it's just because figure skating is a subjective sport and people will naturally like different things.

 

[Dawn825]

But I mean, hasn't some evidence been brought forth? Alina's interviews about not drinking water or her saying that so long as she doesn't eat much she can avoid puberty? Eteri saying Yulia was on a diet of powered nutrients (and also the fact that Yulia had anorexia and had to get treated at a hospital after retirement)? Evgenia has also said that back with Eteri she used to spend days without eating. Obviously no one has come out with like allegations, and I honestly doubt anyone will since eating disorders are sadly common in this sport. It's not just an Eteri problem, it's a widespread issue for just about every female athlete. Gracie Gold and Gabby Daleman aren't Russians under Eteri but they struggle with eating disorders as well.

AND just because it's a commonality doesn't mean eating disorders are okay and just a part of skating. Eating disorders are NOT GOOD, and the ISU and coaches should work to find a technique that doesn't put so much pressure on skaters remaining extremely skinny.

Obviously the whole point of the post was missed. That's sad. Clearly, all of this (fainting, purging, worries of water weight) is ALREADY happening, and the point was that Eteri fans will continue to support her unless irrefutable proof of eteri's methods is brought forth, say, on camera, or someone of important speaking about it.

Losing battle my friends. Some fans know this is going on in every corner of the sport and are deeply disturbed by it. Others adamantly live in denial, and insist anyone who wins and smiles on TV is happy. And others will straight up say any little kid who doesn't throw up their food just doesn't want to win badly enough. It's got nothing to do with proof. Only priorities.

 

[Fantik]

Conversely, Alyona's choreo is far too lacking. She barely does any transitions into or out of her elements in the FS.

But this is exactly what sets, or rather did set Aliona apart from any other skater. That ability to glide, float, as if not touching the ice, is what made me fall in love with her skating. Vastness vs business. Yes, it is different from old Canadian school with its progression of cleverly combined step combinations. Both schools have their respective fans. And I believe there is place for both.

This was unforgettable as far as I am concerned. The purest diamond of all!

Alena Kostornaia's record-breaking short program at NHK Trophy | NBC Sports

Russia’s Alena Kostornaia scores 85.04 points during her record-breaking short program at NHK Trophy.#NBCSports #Alena Kostornaia #FigureSkatingWant more fig...

www.youtube.com

I honestly thought she had a chance to join that rarified pantheon of FS greats.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

He did choreograph some lost pieces, like the one I sent extracts of, which score and memories are lost, in the Petipa style and in order to "sell" his students as best as he can because his/their objective is to please great ballet directors/recruiters to get admitted in them. And the soloist parts are adapted to the casting of the day, with the same objective (and that of not risking an injury, particularly of his best and youngest male student, who had a serious one the next year when at Mariinsky and passed most of his first Mariinsky year at home in Chicago )
So there is much in common with a figure skating choreographer.
The other ballets of this graduation performance he only staged them indeed.
Well, sorry I was a bit out-of-topic. After all, as far as I know he never commented on figure skating.
Natalia Osipova is not the classical Russian ballerina but she's a great dancer and her opinion is certainly worthy.

@Scott512
Maybe they added a zero to the number? Or fancied what an American coaching team would have charged? To speak again of Vaganova Academy, international students (so, not state-funded) are charged 17.000$/year, boarding included... Most go to special international trainee groups, but the best ones go to the "real" main Vaganova classes, and get parts, choreography, costumes and all.
Prices are not the same in US and in Russia...

Tsiskaridze was a great dancer (nice feet and all, my former ballet teacher loves him) but his involvement in Bolshoi politics turns me off a bit. The whole thing with the acid attack on Filin and Tsiskaridze made to go on quasi-leave because the defendant was in 'his' political faction, resulting in Asylmuratova being kicked out and replaced by him at Vaganova by order of the government... I guess if he wanted to ever venture into figure skating choreo, at least he's cut his teeth on the real drama that is Russian ballet

This article might be a bit biased (Ratmansky/Filin/Lunkina/Osipova were on the opposite 'faction' to Tsiskaridze) but shows early indications of the atmosphere leading up to that mess: https://theartsdesk.com/dance/how-ratmansky-exited-bolshoi-flames
It's also interesting if you want to know more about historical reconstruction of ballet (something that Ratmansky is known for).

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

But this is exactly what sets, or rather did set Aliona apart from any other skater. That ability to glide, float, as if not touching the ice, is what made me fall in love with her skating. Vastness vs business. Yes, it is different from old Canadian school with its progression of cleverly combined step combinations. Both schools have their respective fans. And I believe there is place for both.

This was unforgettable as far as I am concerned. The purest diamond of all!

Alena Kostornaia's record-breaking short program at NHK Trophy | NBC Sports

Russia’s Alena Kostornaia scores 85.04 points during her record-breaking short program at NHK Trophy.#NBCSports #Alena Kostornaia #FigureSkatingWant more fig...

www.youtube.com

I honestly thought she had a chance to join that rarified pantheon of FS greats.

I don't know if I just have the strangest opinions ever but I don't even like that SP for Alyona that much either. Again, I really liked it when she was a junior, but I think the small choreographic changes and dress change made the program a lot less enjoyable? I thought it was the free skate where she really shined.

And yes, I agree that the lack of transitions into and out of her jumps for the FS was what made most of it (barring the step sequence) a bit forgettable but given the circumstances I expected they were going to keep it for Olympic season and work on it more. I think it had good potential after all, it was just too empty. And I do think that part of what makes Alyona such a great skater is her skating skills and the ease of her skating, especially in transitions. However, that doesn't automatically mean that any program with a ton of transitions works for me. It still has to match the music, which is where some of the jam-packed choreography falls short.

And I think Alyona still has that chance so long as she works for it. I don't even think the 3A is necessary, just more work on stamina and steps will already make her one of the most artistic skaters of this era. Of course if she gets the 3A again, she'll probably become one of the greats. To me she already is one of the greats though. I don't need to see Worlds medals or Olympic medals to know that the 3A are three of the greatest skaters to ever grace the sport.

 

[Decoder]

Might be worth mentioning that dancers and choreographers in the ballet world can hardly agree with themselves on who and what is 'good'.
The same dancer (Osipova) who praised Bolero has many devoted fans (she's a very powerful jumper and turner) but also a lot of critics who find her unrefined and inappropriately dramatic in certain roles. It's not just arts critics who have varying opinions - Xander Parish, considered an unexceptional corps member at the Royal Ballet, was picked up by the Mariinsky and fast-tracked to principal status. So the dance world has widely variable tastes and those members who choose to weigh in on skating aren't automatically superior to a clued-up skating fan (and as you say, they aren't trying to hold it to their standard).

Looks like you have some background in dance/ballet? That's cool. I think there are several people here with similar background.

Don't know much about ballet, but critics or fans, I would say Osipova is widely considered a top ballerina, and praises from her definitely worth something, not necessarily FS per se. I am sure almost all people here know more about FS than Osipova, or Tsiskaridze. Just that next time if someone criticizes Kamila's "plasticity, accents, delivery" (quoted from Osipova, google translation) from a "ballet angle", I can use Osipova's help.

 

[Greengemmonster]

I think that Sasha should keep her SP. It is a delightful SP. I don't know how she feels about it personally but she certainly delivers it with a lot of soul and there is a romance about it that speaks to me. It's probably my most watched program this season. Whenever I'm idle I'm like "Ooh let's go watch Sasha's SP"

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Looks like you have some background in dance/ballet? That's cool. I think there are several people here with similar background.

Don't know much about ballet, but critics or fans, I would say Osipova is widely considered a top ballerina, and praises from her definitely worth something, not necessarily FS per se. I am sure almost all people here know more about FS than Osipova, or Tsiskaridze. Just that next time if someone criticizes Kamila's "plasticity, accents, delivery" (quoted from Osipova, google translation) from a "ballet angle", I can use Osipova's help.

She is a top ballerina! Polarizing, but very good Like any dancer there are roles that suit her better than others, e.g. Kitri or Gamzatti, rather than Aurora. I think many of my favourite dancers might also like Kamila. Some of my former teachers, maybe not (especially the British ones who came of age during the Fonteyn-Nureyev era, rather than Russian and American teachers who tend to appreciate high extensions).

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I think that Sasha should keep her SP. It is a delightful SP. I don't know how she feels about it personally but she certainly delivers it with a lot of soul and there is a romance about it that speaks to me. It's probably my most watched program this season. Whenever I'm idle I'm like "Ooh let's go watch Sasha's SP"

On one hand I love it too, but on the other... can you imagine how iconic it would be if she skated something like Game of Survival? I love Sasha (I think one can clearly tell) but I feel like in the romantic style, there are skaters who are a bit better naturally, like Anna or Mai or Marin or Eunsoo, and she'd be just a bit buried if she went for an elegant program. But if she went for something epic and powerful? Very few ladies can be as powerful as she was when she was fourteen in the Kill Bill SP!

 

[Azikin]

I love Sasha (I think one can clearly tell) but I feel like in the romantic style, there are skaters who are a bit better naturally

In other words, that SP doesn't suit her at all.