2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Tonight's the Night]

I would think probably the most difficult thing of pairs or ice dance, besides the lady learning to trust her partner to do all the crazy things they do with lifts/throws/death spirals is to do elements in sync with another human being.

Apropos in this context, a great segment from Adam Rippon and Meryl Davis.

Meryl on twizzles: "We [Meryl and Charlie] practiced them so much that we could actually tell based on the sound of the other person's blade on the ice if we were in sync or not."

And then watch two retired greats make coordinated twizzles look easy. No wait, whoops, I mean the opposite of easy.

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[Dawn825]

Dont you have to basically learn to be ambidexterous to do ice dance? When I skated, I couldnt do shiz turning clockwise when my natural way was counter-clockwise. So I can imagine that middle twizzle is a witch. Good point whoever said about all the teams getting hammered on the finnstep too tho.

 

[dhjh811]

Exactly man!

People talk about the ladies in dance having great skating skills. If they did they would have skated singles a lot longer. Aliona has great skating skills. Very few can equal her skating skills. No lady in dance that's for sure. I think to think that Alina arguably the greatest female skater of her cycle and one of all time greats (she won everything) could not learn edging and timing for dance is preposterous!

It probably won't happen Alina will probably just skate in shows the rest of her career in that is fine. She certainly deserves to do what she wants with her career and life and ice dance is probably not on the table. I just brought it up because I thought it would be an interesting topic.

In closing I would you say if Kanysheva and Vasalieva can switch to dance then alina could as well if she wanted to. I doubt she will make the switch from singles to dance like other girls have done but I wonder if it's crossed her mind.

what did I just read you don't follow ice dance at all do you? Are you joking with the "If they did they would have skated singles a lot longer. Aliona has great skating skills. Very few can equal her skating skills. No lady in dance that's for sure"? This is genuinely bewildering to me. You must think of ice dance as some kind of joke if you truly believe this.

Ice dance is a discipline where Miyahara and Kaori's skating skills are seen as just standard in senior international competition. It is not comparable to singles skating in terms of skating skills. We see some singles skaters who switch to ice dance as teens, and it's doubtful they'll actually ever become a top team in senior international competition because their basic skating skills are so far apart in quality from skaters who have been trained to compete in ice dance since they were well under 10.

 

[Vilord]

The only skaters with fully backloaded short and free programs I'm aware of were Alina and Aliona. There were several others with fully backloaded short programs (Evgenia, Daria Panenkova), but I don't know about "numerous junior skaters doing 100 % backloading" as for the free.

I think Alina and Aliona where the only ones in internatinal competition with fully backloaded frees. but Sofia A (age 10 at that point) did fully backloaded frees (and I think there where more novice and junior skaters trying it). Sasha backloaded everything that wasnt a quad. Panenkova and Tarakanova had everything but one jump backloaded same as medvedeva (at least one of the free versions she had that year). All of the above mentioned had fully backloaded shorts. The wind was blowing in the max backloading department for quite some time. Alina winning the olympics and proving it was possible in senior is probably what pushed it over the edge but I doubt it was the only contributing factor.

 

[silveruskate]

As if the ISU has a vendetta against a specific person.

 

[flanker]

Below is from the junior nationals prior to the rule change 2 of 18 skaters did less than 5 jumps in the back-loaded section: https://fsrussia.ru/results/1718/junnat1718/e__Scores.pdf

vs. at the Olympics that year where only 4 of the top 15 did 5 jumps backloaded, everyone else was 3 or 4: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

		Number of Jumps backloaded
1​	Alena KOSTORNAYA	7 of 7​
2​	Stanislava KONSTANTINOVA	5 of 7​
3​	Alexandra Trusova	6 of 7 (her first jump was a quad attempt)​
4​	Anastasia GUBANOVA	6 of 7​
5​	Daria PANENKOVA	7 of 7​
6​	Victoria VASILIEVA	5 of 7​
7​	Anastasia TARAKANOVA	6 of 7​
8​	Alena KANYSHEVA	5 of 7​
9​	Elizaveta NUGUMANOVA	5 of 7​
10​	Ksenia SINITSYNA	5 of 7​
11​	Anastasia GULYAKOVA	5 of 7​
12​	Anastasia KOSTYUK	5 of 7​
13​	Victoria SAFONOVA	5 of 7​
14​	Ksenia TSIBINOVA	5 of 7​
15​	Sophia Moroz	6 of 7​
16​	Anna SHCHERBAKOVA	6 of 7 (given the location of her first jump I suspect she might not have been paying attention to her time)​
17​	Alexandra CHERPAKOVA	4 of 7​
18​	Maria PAVLOVA	4 of 7

5 of 7 was pretty usual layout even among top seniors internationally, because most skaters wanted to gain more points this way, but you spoke about "numerous junior skaters doing 100 % backloading" which simply wasn't there.

 

[flanker]

I think Alina and Aliona where the only ones in internatinal competition with fully backloaded frees. but Sofia A (age 10 at that point) did fully backloaded frees (and I think there where more novice and junior skaters trying it). Sasha backloaded everything that wasnt a quad. Panenkova and Tarakanova had everything but one jump backloaded same as medvedeva (at least one of the free versions she had that year). All of the above mentioned had fully backloaded shorts. The wind was blowing in the max backloading department for quite some time. Alina winning the olympics and proving it was possible in senior is probably what pushed it over the edge but I doubt it was the only contributing factor.

Same, it isn't "numerous junior skaters doing 100 % backloading", that would be like 20 juniors putting 7 of 7 jumps into the second half. At that moment those were only Alina since the 2016/17 season and Aliona one season later. There would be probably more in time if the rule woudln't have been accepted, but saying "I don't think that the back-loading rule was 100% because of Zagitova" is incorrect. In that moment it certainly was mainly about Alina, also the very loud narrative was saying "without backloading Alina wouldn't have won the olympics" and "she won't win anything now".

Like there would certainly be other skaters who would do the same what Zayak did in time, but Zayak was the main icon of that attitude, therefore it was called Zayak Rule, and Alina definitely is the skater who was seen as the one who is fully backloading and if it weren't for her the same rule would probably appear much later.

 

[macy]

the dismissing of ice dancers skating skills here is pretty wild. the entire discipline literally revolves around skating skills and yall are out here saying a singles skater could compete or even be better than them. thats incredibly insulting. As much as i love Aliona, she has good skating skills for a singles skater, not for an ice dancer. the two are not equal.

not to mention i can't think of any relevant singles skater who has switched to dance and had huge success. Daisuke who was a top mens skater isn't even close to the top of ice dance. this seems more common with singles skaters switching to pairs, since they already have some skills necessary to be successful in that discipline (such as Valentina Marchei & Ashley Cain)

 

[chasingneverland]

I was that someone you mentioned.
The topic was not supposed to turn into an arguement or denigrate Alina.

I think most of us realize/acknowledge that her skating skills aren't one of her, albeit many, strengths. That's not a bad thing. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Yes, even our fav skaters. (And our least favourite have their own strengths.)

What this topic has turned into is a complete dismissal and outright ignorance of the level of skill displayed in ice dance.

 

[chasingneverland]

Anyway, here's a super good interview with Daria: https://russian.rt.com/sport/article/849277-usacheva-intervyu-kvady

She talks about skating after Anna at RusNats, gaining confidence, "ultra-c" elements, the Channel 1 Cup, etc!

 

[dante]

Anyway, here's a super good interview with Daria: https://russian.rt.com/sport/article/849277-usacheva-intervyu-kvady

Wow, a knowledgeable journalist who managed to touch on all the hot topics in a nonprovocative manner.

Among other things Daria said "I want to get over with the 3A as soon as possible and move on to the 4S".

 

[starlight97]

Anyway, here's a super good interview with Daria: https://russian.rt.com/sport/article/849277-usacheva-intervyu-kvady

She talks about skating after Anna at RusNats, gaining confidence, "ultra-c" elements, the Channel 1 Cup, etc!

Yass Darya! Go for that 3rd Olympic spot and take no prisoners!

I've become very sympathetic with her over this past season and her high quality in every element of skating backs her up also objectively. Only thing she needs is ultra-c to seriously fight for that spot.
She deserves to be more than just Kamila's shadow or "that second junior girl".
If she can get a consistent 3A and 4S, she should score higher than Trusova, Anna, and of course than Alena and Maya.
If she can only get one of the two it will be a super intense fight between Trusova, Anna and her.
BUT: she has the right age to peak next season, while Anna, Sasha and Alena are "aging out" in Eteri years.

 

[flanker]

Anyway, here's a super good interview with Daria: https://russian.rt.com/sport/article/849277-usacheva-intervyu-kvady

She talks about skating after Anna at RusNats, gaining confidence, "ultra-c" elements, the Channel 1 Cup, etc!

Yes, it was great to read it even via google translator

 

[Mathman]

I have a different take on the whole ISU experiment with backloading. It is quite clear from reading various ISU communications, that the concern of the ISU was that programs were becoming esthetically "unbalanced" in that all of the fireworks occurred in the first couple of minutes, to be followed by some routine skating that was less interesting. (Rewarding skaters who had the stamina to jump on "tired legs" was also a factor, but a less important one to the ISU policy-makers -- Lakernik, etc.).

What Zagitova's Don Quixote program showed was that the ISU's bonus rule had failed in its central mission. Again, the idea of "balance" ruled the day. It is apprpopriate that a nskater can earn a bonus by demonstrating great stamina, but the reward should be "balanced" against the rewards available for other aspects of skating. A few points here, a few points there -- that is what the IJS aspires to.

It's the same as quads. By all that's good and holy, quads should get more points than they do. Why? Because a quad is really hard. But the IJS deliberately holds the points for a quad down in order to preserve the "balance" between multirevolution jumps and other (perhaps more modest) point-getters -- footwork, choreography, et.c, etc., etc. which would be utterly swamped if the point values for quads were too high.

The ISU pulled back a little on the second half bonus, but not in order to pick on Alina. (Why would they want to pick on Alina -- so Evgenia Medvedeva could win instead? That's paranoid delusion, if you ask me.)

 

[flanker]

I have a different take on the whole ISU experiment with backloading. It is quite clear from reading various ISU communications, that the concern of the ISU was that programs were becoming esthetically "unbalanced" in that all of the fireworks occurred in the first couple of minutes, to be followed by some routine skating that was less interesting. (Rewarding skaters who had the stamina to jump on "tired legs" was also a factor, but a less important one to the ISU policy-makers -- Lakernik, etc.).

What Zagitova's Don Quixote program showed was that the ISU's bonus rule had failed in its central mission. Again, the idea of "balance" ruled the day. It is apprpopriate that a nskater can earn a bonus by demonstrating great stamina, but the reward should be "balanced" against the rewards available for other aspects of skating. A few points here, a few points there -- that is what the IJS aspires to.

It's the same as quads. By all that's good and holy, quads should get more points than they do. Why? Because a quad is really hard. But the IJS deliberately holds the points for a quad down in order to preserve the "balance" between multirevolution jumps and other (perhaps more modest) point-getters -- footwork, choreography, et.c, etc., etc. which would be utterly swamped if the point values for quads were too high.

The ISU pulled back a little on the second half bonus, but not in order to pick on Alina. (Why would they want to pick on Alina -- so Evgenia Medvedeva could win instead? That's paranoid delusion, if you ask me.)

The sticking point is I don't see "balanced program" in plain "0:00-2:00 equals 2:01-4:00". Balance is putting adequate attention to all/most aspects, jumps, spins, steps, presentation and all this, not that an arbiter stays with stopwatch and measures how much was done one minute after beginning and 1 minute till the end. When, you take a book, a movie a theater play, you don't measure the quality by dividing it into two halves and measuring how much "balanced" they are but how it all works together.

 

[alexocfp]

Mr. Mishin gave an interview today and said that his pupil will also be training for an Olympic spot.

So, ignore a motivated Empress at your peril.

 

[Amei]

The sticking point is I don't see "balanced program" in plain "0:00-2:00 equals 2:01-4:00". Balance is putting adequate attention to all/most aspects, jumps, spins, steps, presentation and all this, not that an arbiter stays with stopwatch and measures how much was done one minute after beginning and 1 minute till the end. When, you take a book, a movie a theater play, you don't measure the quality by dividing it into two halves and measuring how much "balanced" they are but how it all works together.

Giving bonus for doing a jump at 2:01 vs. at :01 was to reward skaters for doing elements on tired legs, Eteri found the weakness that the rule didn't say what the skater had to do in the first 2 minutes of the program, so she made her skaters do light choreography like a spin or step sequence with some skating around and then at 2:01 start a jupmpfest... there's a difference between jumping on legs at 2:01 that has already done 3 other jumps and jumping on legs that have only done minimal choreography to kill time for 2 minutes.

It was a good rule change, it encourages skaters to spread out their elements where we don't see 2 minutes of killing time till the bonus section then jump fest to cram everything in and it still encourages/rewards skaters who have trained to do difficult jumps on tired legs with bonus points. There's nothing that prevents a skater from doing a program backloaded with everything in the last 2 minutes, they are just going to only get bonus points on the last 3 elements.

 

[flanker]

Giving bonus for doing a jump at 2:01 vs. at :01 was to reward skaters for doing elements on tired legs, Eteri found the weakness that the rule didn't say what the skater had to do in the first 2 minutes of the program, so she made her skaters do light choreography like a spin or step sequence with some skating around and then at 2:01 start a jupmpfest... there's a difference between jumping on legs at 2:01 that has already done 3 other jumps and jumping on legs that have only done minimal choreography to kill time for 2 minutes.

It was a good rule change, it encourages skaters to spread out their elements where we don't see 2 minutes of killing time till the bonus section then jump fest to cram everything in and it still encourages/rewards skaters who have trained to do difficult jumps on tired legs with bonus points. There's nothing that prevents a skater from doing a program backloaded with everything in the last 2 minutes, they are just going to only get bonus points on the last 3 elements.

IMO step sequence is pretty tiring for legs, spins too. It is not "light choreography" nor killing time by default. If it was, it should be reflected in PCS, but it wasn't so it isn't, to paraphrase sir Humphrey Appleby. And if that would be so easy as some claim now, than we definitely would see much more of fully backloaded programs. Well, three years before it was about "jumps are not evrything", but now it seems like "jumps are the only thing"

My eternal problem with how the layout is done now consists of wondering why we escaped from the "all programs layouts can possibly look like 0-7 in the future" to "truly all programs layouts are 4-3 currently and nothing motivates anyone to do it different way" and we cheer for how superduper excellent it is. It isn't.

 

[chasingneverland]

If she can get a consistent 3A and 4S, she should score higher than Trusova, Anna, and of course than Alena and Maya.

That depends on what Sasha and Anna do.

Sasha with a 3A and 5 quads will outscore that super easily, but can she land that? It's what we know she's going for.

Anna with 3 quads can outscore that too. Can she get them back/stable? (Actually with 2 quads she can probably outscore that)

Alena with her 3 3As back can outscore that too. Can she get it back?

 

[macy]

IMO step sequence is pretty tiring for legs, spins too. It is not "light choreography" nor killing time by default. If it was, it should be reflected in PCS, but it wasn't so it isn't, to paraphrase sir Humphrey Appleby. And if that would be so easy as some claim now, than we definitely would see much more of fully backloaded programs. Well, three years before it was about "jumps are not evrything", but now it seems like "jumps are the only thing"

My eternal problem with how the layout is done now consists of wondering why we escaped from the "all programs layouts can possibly look like 0-7 in the future" to "truly all programs layouts are 4-3 currently and nothing motivates anyone to do it different way" and we cheer for how superduper excellent it is. It isn't.

step sequences and spins are part of the program and are tiring, but not nearly as tiring as jumping. that was the whole motivation the ISU had for backloading while still wanting a technically balanced program- doing jumps in the first half equals more tired legs in the 2nd half, hence the bonus. no jumps in the first half equals much less tired legs at the halfway point. they didn't have the intention of it being used as Alina and others began doing it, so when they saw this becoming a trend, they stopped it.