Nathan Chen

[luckyu2]

I would not read too much into those GOEs at Worlds. Had Nathan performed his long after Yuzu, it could be different. Yuma and Misha both landed some nice jumps with good air position and flow.
MFD/Sam were more accessible to Nathan when he was in Yale. Given the current situation, I would not be surprised if he go to Shae for both programs. I always adore Shae’s music selections so I do not worry about getting something completely dislike. However, balancing the jumps with stsq/chsq is tricky for the long. Personally I think having last three jumps in the last 30 sec is not ideal which isn’t helping getting higher GOEs either.

 

[LutzDance]

I would not read too much into those GOEs at Worlds

Agreed. Also Nathan’s 4Lz still got the highest total GOE because of high BV.

I think the Glass program has the longest StSq of all free skates Nathan’s had as a senior? His step sequences from the past were around 40 seconds (even in the 4’30” free skate era), while this one was almost a minute. I don’t have the stats on other men but I suspect it’s also on the longer end. I’d like to think the clustering of big jumps toward the end (and a diminutive choreo sequence) is the price we pay for a beautifully extended step sequence.

 

[georgia]

I am grateful of Nathan‘s skating, and I am prepared to enjoy him no matter who does his programs . The naysayers will not like them anyway, and some judges might not mark him as high as he deserves in some cases.
In my eyes his skating, and his athletic ability are above the rest! It makes me sad thinking, that this great athlete might only skate one more year, and that’s where my focus is for now!

 

[luckyu2]

The Glass stsq has grown on me and my favorite version is the one from WTT. It is beautifully choreographed to go with the minimalistic music. I am still a little sad that it has got mixed reviews while the short but dramatic chsq is somehow better received. I watched the Worlds Long with someone who considers himself a casual FS fan. 20 sec into the stsq, he went “what is he doing??” and no surprise he loved the last 30 secs. So I guess the change from earlier version was successful. Though I kinda miss the sit spin towards the end with his hands touching the ice in the earlier versions.

 

[Gilligan]

The Glass stsq has grown on me and my favorite version is the one from WTT. It is beautifully choreographed to go with the minimalistic music. I am still a little sad that it has got mixed reviews while the short but dramatic chsq is somehow better received. I watched the Worlds Long with someone who considers himself a casual FS fan. 20 sec into the stsq, he went “what is he doing??” and no surprise he loved the last 30 secs. So I guess the change from earlier version was successful. Though I kinda miss the sit spin towards the end with his hands touching the ice in the earlier versions.

Re: choreo sequence vs step sequence... it's because only those with refine palates can appreciate subtle flavors. Many skating fans find Nathan too stoic because they love melodrama, extroversion and kiss and cry antics. In fact some complain he put them to sleep until choreo sequence, even at Worlds. The fact that it's a meditative and quiet program doesn't matter to them--he needs to look more lively and energetic, like he's trying really hard to make an impression, *really into it*, regardless of whether the music calls for high energy or dramatic facial expressions. And if the music calls for his gentle movements, then it was a bad idea to choose such soporific music in the first place... according to those fans, in all likelihood.

I mean, I'm not one of the perceptive knowledgeable fans here, either--I didn't properly appreciate the step sequence until Nationals. Without hand gazing and lunges it sailed right over my head! *insert the bag over the head smiley* (even though I like subtle expressions and classical, refined programs more than the more overtly expressive ones).

Kurt Browning and the CBC commentators appreciate the step sequence at Worlds, if that's any comfort? For years it seemed only Kurt appreciates Nathan's artistry, so I'm really glad Robin Cousins was so appreciative of the Worlds FS.

 

[Gilligan]

First, I’m not sure if Sam contributed only to the choreo sequence. Second, while I’m not a big fan of MFD/Sam’s choreography for Nathan, I will give them credits for having some excellent ideas in terms of weaving jumps into the program. The opening combo, spread eagle exit on the second jumping pass, and the spread eagle-4T-Eu-3F sequence in Rocketman were all well placed musically, with the transitions enhancing the performance. [...]

Personally I do wish Nathan could get both of his programs from Shae for the Olympic season (or three, including the ex). I feel she taps into Nathan’s talent and versatility like no one else and there’s synergy between them. However I’m also under the impression that Nathan prefers to get the long from Montreal because of the training environment and MFD’s less hands-on approach. And MFD/Team Gadbois seems to have some connections in the dance world, as they got an America Ballet Theatre dancer to choreograph P/C’s Olympic FD. I could see such a collaboration really benefit Nathan’s program. Maybe in the end whether he gets the FS from Shae or MFD depends on how easy it is to travel to Canada.

Wow. Thanks for the many thoughtful comments!

sheetz, I appreciate all your postings, and I definitely noticed the nice flow out of Nathan’s jumps at 2019 Nationals after he worked with MFD on skating skills in December 2018, but Shae or other ice dance coaches not located in Montreal can also work with him on this, right?

I get the feeling MFD is better at making a program look full and probably is temperamentally easier to work with than Shae, but this is Olympics season, and it’s not like IAM’s flagship team Pap/Ciz is going to cruise to OGM with Sin/Kats on the rise. Hub/Don, Chock/Bates... one of those teams may be out of the medals altogether. How much attention can team MFD really give Nathan?

Selfishly, I prefer the many memorable moments I get out of Shae’s Philip Glass free skate vs. pretty much anything out of team MFD. Although the end of Land of All was a really good display of what makes Nathan’s skating unique, I must say... the earlier lyrical section of LoA didn’t really impress me as brilliant choreography--it seemed like the art came from how beautifully Nathan moved. Maybe that’s an underappreciated aspect of a choreographer’s skill, I don’t know enough to say.

LutzDance, I do worry if he’s getting 2 or 3 programs from Shae that they’ll all look the same, and it might after all be our last chance to see Nathan skate something ‘new,’ so I want his programs to look different. Desperado looks different from Philip Glass, but Desperado lacked originality and didn’t particularly suit Nathan, and Philip Glass had to have its choreography re-worked multiple times before Nathan skated it well enough for general skating fans to appreciate it... so I don't feel fully reassured. I like Nathan and even I was too thick-headed to properly appreciate it until Nationals.

I agree with Joe Mendoza--choice of music is probably what's most important. Shae has been good at selecting music that suits Nathan. It was Nathan who insisted on a Latin program, so Desperado is on him, lol.

LutzDance said it much more eloquently than I can--Shae just *gets* Nathan and the way he moves on ice. So bottom line is I still trust her the most. Can Nathan get both SP and FS from Shae and let Sam Chouinard give him a new gala program? Can we have new swag instead of old swag?

 

[Gilligan]

I am grateful of Nathan‘s skating, and I am prepared to enjoy him no matter who does his programs . The naysayers will not like them anyway, and some judges might not mark him as high as he deserves in some cases.
In my eyes his skating, and his athletic ability are above the rest! It makes me sad thinking, that this great athlete might only skate one more year, and that’s where my focus is for now!

Thank you. This is so well said. I'll try to follow your example, even though I'll probably fall short and whine a lot

 

[sheetz]

sheetz, I appreciate all your postings, and I definitely noticed the nice flow out of Nathan’s jumps at 2019 Nationals after he worked with MFD on skating skills in December 2018, but Shae or other ice dance coaches not located in Montreal can also work with him on this, right?

Yes, but they won't work on a program that someone else has choreographed. Shae and MFD will only work with him on their own programs. That's why it wouldn't work to have Sam choreograph the whole thing.

 

[LutzDance]

Many skating fans find Nathan too stoic because they love melodrama, extroversion and kiss and cry antics. In fact some complain he put them to sleep until choreo sequence, even at Worlds. The fact that it's a meditative and quiet program doesn't matter to them--he needs to look more lively and energetic, like he's trying really hard to make an impression, *really into it*, regardless of whether the music calls for high energy or dramatic facial expressions. And if the music calls for his gentle movements, then it was a bad idea to choose such soporific music in the first place... according to those fans, in all likelihood.

This reminds me some months ago someone was accusing Nathan of not having a “burning” artistic expression or a desire to display struggles with “hardships in life”, and it had me rolling! To me it’s much more interesting to tease apart the quiet murmurations of every little movement than being yelled at with a loud speaker Not saying loving the loud speaker is wrong though, just that people should learn to embrace different perspectives.

I do worry if he’s getting 2 or 3 programs from Shae that they’ll all look the same

Hmm it’s something I’m not concerned about. To me, Nemesis, Caravan, La Bohème, Desperado and the Glass program (and No Good ) couldn’t be further apart from each other. And I actually saw a lot of originality in Desperado in the ISP1 performance, too bad the same fire of performance didn’t come back until WTT and the choreography was changed for worse. btw I don’t think it was Nathan’s idea to have a Latin program. In fact I believe Shae picked the music for all the programs they’ve collaborated on.

I’m very selfish in that I just want Nathan to have programs I like, no matter how others receive it. I think this mentality has prevented me from letting other people’s comments about Nathan get into my head, but it also makes me unable to imagine what sort of programs of his could make most people happy. And I just think Nathan is the perfect skater to interpret cerebral, introverted music with long, lyrical phrases, and hope they pick something along the line for what is potentially his last competitive free.

Can Nathan get both SP and FS from Shae and let Sam Chouinard give him a new gala program?

Sam did say they should do a show program together (under Nathan’s comment)
https://www.instagram.com/p/B32OnMsAktk/?igshid=14cf99s7uhhtm

 

[LutzDance]

Also Gilligan, no need to be self-deprecating! I’m sure all of us see Nathan through a different lens, and there’re always things that others see and you don’t. I constantly discover new things to admire in Nathan and that’s the most fun part of being a fan

 

[shine]

I think Nathan will likely go back to Montreal for his FS once again since Sam's choreo sequences have generally been well received. And hopefully his work with SLB will inspire MFD to create something memorable for the rest of the program.

Phil's recap of the season

In figure skating’s long, strange trip of a season, Nathan Chen showed the way

After the cancellation of the 2020 World Championships, through dealing with two more COVID-19 waves, the season came to a satisfying end.

olympics.nbcsports.com

---

Looking back 4 years ago, this is roughly the time when they held the NBC Winter Olympics photo shoot in West Hollywood. Wonder when/if that will happen again this year?

Winter Olympics Photo Shoot

I've been following https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating and wondering how they chose which skaters would be part of the Olympic photo shoot. So far I've seen mention of Chen, Rippon, Brown and Zhou for the men, Wagner, Chen, Gold and Nagasu for the ladies, the Knierims in pairs and the...

www.fsuniverse.net

I've always been under the impression that one of the biggest factors for Nathan partnering with MDF/Sam was because of their relative proximity to Yale. Since he will continue his break from Yale next season, I'm hoping he will also stay away from Montreal. I really think their programs (or lack of) besides the choreo sequence are a waste of his talents to put it bluntly, sorry. And even the choreo sequences, while crowd pleasing, have not been created with the purpose of actually utilizing or developing his skating skills IMO. Philip Glass was a step in the right direction. Next year could very well be his final competitive year, and I personally don't want it to go to waste.

 

[Ella5555]

I've always been under the impression that one of the biggest factors for Nathan partnering with MDF/Sam was because of their relative proximity to Yale. Since he will continue his break from Yale next season, I'm hoping he will also stay away from Montreal. I really think their programs (or lack of) are a waste of his talents to put it bluntly, sorry. Philip Glass was a step in the right direction.

If he wants to get the choreography in person and sooner versus later, I don’t think going to Canada as much of an option at this point, unless things dramatically change soon. I’d prefer that he continue to work with Shae alone or Shae for SP and some other (new) choreographer for the FS. Shae is right there at his rink, and it appears he spent time with her to tweak his programs as the season progressed. She knows him very well, so it makes a lot of sense.

That being said, it would be cool for him to work with Sandra Bezic - just because his movement for the “Movement” group skate at ATS was so incredible - even when he was just standing in place at the beginning of the number. And Sandra has stated that she’d love to work with him, so it makes me think that she would provide extra special choreography for his Olympic year. However, I don’t think that’s gonna happen either. Nathan always surprises us each year. No doubt he’ll do the same this year.

 

[Gilligan]

If he wants to get the choreography in person and sooner versus later, I don’t think going to Canada as much of an option at this point, unless things dramatically change soon. I’d prefer that he continue to work with Shae alone or Shae for SP and some other (new) choreographer for the FS. Shae is right there at his rink, and it appears he spent time with her to tweak his programs as the season progressed. She knows him very well, so it makes a lot of sense.

That being said, it would be cool for him to work with Sandra Bezic - just because his movement for the “Movement” group skate at ATS was so incredible - even when he was just standing in place at the beginning of the number. And Sandra has stated that she’d love to work with him, so it makes me think that she would provide extra special choreography for his Olympic year. However, I don’t think that’s gonna happen either. Nathan always surprises us each year. No doubt he’ll do the same this year.

That's right! Bezic had a hand in that. I was very smitten at the time of ATS, how could I forget? Movement featured a certain quality I liked from Nemesis, where he managed to be modern and cool yet also elegant, uniquely Nathan. But what slightly detracts is Movement suffers the same (sorry, georgia, already griping again ) weakness as Desperado and No Good: he seems not terribly comfortable with that sort of hip movement. Maybe some belly dancing lessons could help? Then Sandra can use her full repertoire of choreography...

One reason I may like the idea of Bezic is because I am still disappointed that Shae didn't change the ending pose of La Boheme until long after its debut. For a while Shae let Nathan keep an ending pose that was the exact one from Nemesis, not appropriate to the mood of La Boheme at all. Even if some of the step sequence could be same as a previous year, that was... so I'm just not as sure as LutzDance that Shae will give us the variety / new moves we hope for from his programs this next season.

I also doubt it'll be Bezic for his competition programs. Can she maybe do a gala for him on zoom?
For me, it would be nice if he stuck with Shae for SP and FS _and_ we get the best choreography from their collaboration for both programs since Nemesis.

 

[Apple1078]

I think Nathan is a much better performer than he gets credit for. We really saw that performance quality at ATS. And Sandra saw it, too. That being said, I have no idea if he liked working with her lol.

If we look at a free skate, between the difficult layout, spins etc., there's really not that much time in-between to perform/for great choreography. And I think Sandra would be able to really make those moments count.. she's not necessarily as "intellectual" for lack of a better word as Lori who can sometimes be "art for art's sake" (again for lack of a better word) but she's great when it comes to the performance... which is where Nathan excels and has so much potential. And I love that she sees that potential in him. He's the first skater she always mentions as having that GREAT potential when it comes to performance and she always mentions that she'd like to work with him. So I just feel they would be a great match lol.

Edit: I doubt it will happen though. It's difficult to imagine a scenario where anyone would go to Canada for choreo and quarantine for 2 weeks first lol.

 

[Gilligan]

Yes, but they won't work on a program that someone else has choreographed. Shae and MFD will only work with him on their own programs. That's why it wouldn't work to have Sam choreograph the whole thing.

I understand that's Shae and MFD's prerogative, but it seems to me skating skills depends on the student actually spending the time practicing the exercises on their own, once the 'lesson' is over? And MFD and Shae are not the only two who can teach skating skills, because there are other skaters with very good skating skills who learned from other people. Isn't it a matter of priorities--if Nathan has the luxury after all the jump and spin and steps training to spend some time on SS?

This reminds me some months ago someone was accusing Nathan of not having a “burning” artistic expression or a desire to display struggles with “hardships in life”, and it had me rolling! To me it’s much more interesting to tease apart the quiet murmurations of every little movement than being yelled at with a loud speaker Not saying loving the loud speaker is wrong though, just that people should learn to embrace different perspectives.



Hmm it’s something I’m not concerned about. To me, Nemesis, Caravan, La Bohème, Desperado and the Glass program (and No Good ) couldn’t be further apart from each other. And I actually saw a lot of originality in Desperado in the ISP1 performance, too bad the same fire of performance didn’t come back until WTT and the choreography was changed for worse. btw I don’t think it was Nathan’s idea to have a Latin program. In fact I believe Shae picked the music for all the programs they’ve collaborated on.

I’m very selfish in that I just want Nathan to have programs I like, no matter how others receive it. I think this mentality has prevented me from letting other people’s comments about Nathan get into my head, but it also makes me unable to imagine what sort of programs of his could make most people happy. And I just think Nathan is the perfect skater to interpret cerebral, introverted music with long, lyrical phrases, and hope they pick something along the line for what is potentially his last competitive free.



Sam did say they should do a show program together (under Nathan’s comment)
https://www.instagram.com/p/B32OnMsAktk/?igshid=14cf99s7uhhtm

I remember that Sam comment.

Shae picked Latin music because Nathan had previously informed her that Latin is a genre he wants to have tried before the Beijing Olympics season-- at least that's my understanding of the situation. Maybe she should have just stuck with only one piece of music, or chosen some other music, but Nathan has gotten fans all excited over possible Tangos by talking about Latin even in earlier seasons, so I don't think Shae on her own came up with Desperado without some input from Nathan.

As I mentioned above I wish Shae had lavished a bit more attention on La Boheme. So I can't entirely share your confidence.

But I do love what you said about teasing apart the quiet murmurations of every little movement. I agree he would be wonderful with long, lyrical phrases, but I don't know about cerebral, introverted--I assume the early reception of this year's FS would make them hesitate to go with another cerebral, introverted one next year, unless that's the only sort of program that will allow his preferred max quad layout And in that case, I recommend he gets a jump on Rach2 and break that warhorse in... Yes, I'm willing to back some warhorses

 

[Apple1078]

If he wants to get the choreography in person and sooner versus later, I don’t think going to Canada as much of an option at this point, unless things dramatically change soon. I’d prefer that he continue to work with Shae alone or Shae for SP and some other (new) choreographer for the FS. Shae is right there at his rink, and it appears he spent time with her to tweak his programs as the season progressed. She knows him very well, so it makes a lot of sense.

That being said, it would be cool for him to work with Sandra Bezic - just because his movement for the “Movement” group skate at ATS was so incredible - even when he was just standing in place at the beginning of the number. And Sandra has stated that she’d love to work with him, so it makes me think that she would provide extra special choreography for his Olympic year. However, I don’t think that’s gonna happen either. Nathan always surprises us each year. No doubt he’ll do the same this year.

He was amazing in Movement and in Sing.

 

[Gilligan]

He was amazing in Movement and in Sing.

He really shined. I'll have to rewatch those, now that you mentioned it.

 

[shine]

If he wants to get the choreography in person and sooner versus later, I don’t think going to Canada as much of an option at this point, unless things dramatically change soon. I’d prefer that he continue to work with Shae alone or Shae for SP and some other (new) choreographer for the FS. Shae is right there at his rink, and it appears he spent time with her to tweak his programs as the season progressed. She knows him very well, so it makes a lot of sense.

That being said, it would be cool for him to work with Sandra Bezic - just because his movement for the “Movement” group skate at ATS was so incredible - even when he was just standing in place at the beginning of the number. And Sandra has stated that she’d love to work with him, so it makes me think that she would provide extra special choreography for his Olympic year. However, I don’t think that’s gonna happen either. Nathan always surprises us each year. No doubt he’ll do the same this year.

Collaboration with Sandra would def be cool. She strikes me as someone who's very versatile with a wide range, as displayed in the amazing programs from the classical Rachmaninov and the very nuanced and authentically Chinese Butterfly Lovers (despite being a western choreographer herself) for Lu Chen, to the more contemporary pieces he did for Kurt Browning. I'd be really interested to see what she could come up for Nathan. I doubt Nathan would go to her though - he seems very comfortable with Shae and wants to stick with her. Honestly I'd be happy as long as he stays away from MTL

 

[Gilligan]

Collaboration with Sandra would def be cool. She strikes me as someone who's very versatile with a wide range, as displayed in the amazing programs from the classical Rachmaninov and the very nuanced and authentically Chinese Butterfly Lovers (despite being a western choreographer herself) for Lu Chen, to the more contemporary pieces he did for Kurt Browning. I'd be really interested to see what she could come up for Nathan. I doubt Nathan would go to her though - he seems very comfortable with Shae and wants to stick with her. Honestly I'd be happy as long as he stays away from MTL

Spring Breeze was gorgeous, too.

And the benefits of going to MTL for skating skills seem short-term, so...

 

[LutzDance]

One reason I may like the idea of Bezic is because I am still disappointed that Shae didn't change the ending pose of La Boheme until long after its debut. For a while Shae let Nathan keep an ending pose that was the exact one from Nemesis, not appropriate to the mood of La Boheme at all. Even if some of the step sequence could be same as a previous year, that was... so I'm just not as sure as LutzDance that Shae will give us the variety / new moves we hope for from his programs this next season.

It's an interesting argument, that Shae is not original because she recycled some poses/moves. It reminds me that some fans disliked the leap in La Boheme StSq for being too Nemsis-esque. To me, every single pose/move is like a single brick in the overall architecture of a program, or a single word in a passage. I would not say the originality of the design of a building or the composition of an article is undermined if the architect tends to favor a few motifs, or the writer reuses some memorable prhases. IMO what is important is that the design or the wording makes sense in their context, which is the music in the case of choreography. Shae really shines in this department in the programs she gave Nathan - she visualizes the music in ways that I wouldn't have thought of but completely agree with post hoc. In the specific case of La Boheme, I feel the relentlessness and futility of chasing a time bygone were so well captured in the step sequence that I don't care what they ended the program with haha. TLDR: Shae has original music choices, and Shae (mostly) does justice to the music, ergo I have faith in Shae

And even the choreo sequences, while crowd pleasing, have not been created with the purpose of actually utilizing or developing his skating skills IMO.

Even though I was entertained by Sam's choreo sequences, sometimes I can't help but feel they trivialized Nathan's talent. Yes, the body coordination and commitment he showed in those sequences were admirable, but it doesn't require a ton of musical understanding to carry out an eight-count choreography to a rhythmically and compositionally straight-forward piece of music. But also, Nathan has just done four/five quads at that point so I guess he deserves a (dance) break

I agree he would be wonderful with long, lyrical phrases, but I don't know about cerebral, introverted--I assume the early reception of this year's FS would make them hesitate to go with another cerebral, introverted one next year,

As I said - that's what I want, and I don't care about what others want If he gives me a super intellectual music choice I'll happily celebrate, and if not I'll console myself with the fact that at least some viewers get to have an easier time comprehending his program

PS I absolutely ADORE Spring Breeze! One of my favorite ladies' programs ever And Kurt's Singing in the Rain is also a stroke of genius!