Nathan Chen

[Gilligan]

It's an interesting argument, that Shae is not original because she recycled some poses/moves. It reminds me that some fans disliked the leap in La Boheme StSq for being too Nemsis-esque. To me, every single pose/move is like a single brick in the overall architecture of a program, or a single word in a passage. I would not say the originality of the design of a building or the composition of an article is undermined if the architect tends to favor a few motifs, or the writer reuses some memorable prhases. IMO what is important is that the design or the wording makes sense in their context, which is the music in the case of choreography. Shae really shines in this department in the programs she gave Nathan - she visualizes the music in ways that I wouldn't have thought of but completely agree with post hoc. In the specific case of La Boheme, I feel the relentlessness and futility of chasing a time bygone were so well captured in the step sequence that I don't care what they ended the program with haha. TLDR: Shae has original music choices, and Shae (mostly) does justice to the music, ergo I have faith in Shae


Even though I was entertained by Sam's choreo sequences, sometimes I can't help but feel they trivialized Nathan's talent. Yes, the body coordination and commitment he showed in those sequences were admirable, but it doesn't require a ton of musical understanding to carry out an eight-count choreography to a rhythmically and compositionally straight-forward piece of music. But also, Nathan has just done four/five quads at that point so I guess he deserves a (dance) break



As I said - that's what I want, and I don't care about what others want If he gives me a super intellectual music choice I'll happily celebrate, and if not I'll console myself with the fact that at least some viewers get to have an easier time comprehending his program

PS I absolutely ADORE Spring Breeze! One of my favorite ladies' programs ever And Kurt's Singing in the Rain is also a stroke of genius!

...you were particular about how every phrase of music was used in the Philip Glass step sequence. Yet the end of La Boheme, the culmination of the program and its lingering impression... is a throwaway...


...which super intellectual music did you have in mind? Please nominate a few.

 

[LutzDance]

...you were particular about how every phrase of music was used in the Philip Glass step sequence. Yet the end of La Boheme, the culmination of the program and its lingering impression... is a throwaway...


...which super intellectual music did you have in mind? Please nominate a few.

Haha it's really the same logic with the Glass StSq - I'd rather have a simple mohawk that "talks" to the music than distinctively "pretty" moves like the hand-gazing. For me the ending pose of La Boheme should be consistent with the overall theme of a doomed search of time past, and the original version struck me as a determined (and abrupt) break with such lost memories, so it made sense to me.

Re music: I was first attracted to his skating by that Rite of Spring step sequence at CoR, and I want him to venture into the lesser known repertoire of the composer, such as the Violin Concerto or Agon, which are beautifully visualized by the choreography of Balanchine. To me these ballets are the epitome of neoclascism, which is synonymous with Nathan Chen in the field of contemporary figure skating

I would also be thrilled for him to do Shostakovich's Second Piano Concerto. It has a heart-rendingly soft second movement that's even more tender and genuine than Truman Sleeps, and a glorious first movement that's filled with delicious opportunities for some allegro phrasing. (If there's one video out of the four linked that I want everyone to check out, it's the Second Movement. It makes me want to cry in a good way.)

In a way maybe I was wrong to call these pieces "super intellectual" - I don't think it requires intelligence to be moved by them and I don't want to imply that classical music is inaccessible. They are just not the most obvious emotive vehicle in the skating music repertoire.

 

[Gilligan]

Re music: I was first attracted to his skating by that Rite of Spring step sequence at CoR, and I want him to venture into the lesser known repertoire of the composer, such as the Violin Concerto or Agon, which are beautifully visualized by the choreography of Balanchine. To me these ballets are the epitome of neoclascism, which is synonymous with Nathan Chen in the field of contemporary figure skating

I would also be thrilled for him to do Shostakovich's Second Piano Concerto. It has a heart-rendingly soft second movement that's even more tender and genuine than Truman Sleeps, and a glorious first movement that are filled with delicious opportunities for some allegro phrasing. (If there's one video out of the four linked that I want everyone to check out, it's the Second Movement. It makes me want to cry in a good way.)

In a way maybe I was wrong to call these pieces "super intellectual" - I don't think one needs intelligence to be moved by them. They are just not the most obvious emotive vehicle in the skating music repertoire.

The 2nd movement was available on a compilation called Tearjerkers from my local public library growing up, so yes, I'm familiar with it. I think I prefer Ratmansky's choreography. You're a ballet connoisseur, I only know what I like.

Re: 1st movement... this hard sell music won't help Nathan. He's already at a disadvantage over more effusive skaters who'd kiss the ice, call out 'I love you!' to their spouse/mother/cockerspaniel. He doesn't even sob in the kiss and cry! He'd have to land 8 quads to even stand a chance.


ETA: I still have to click on the other links, but I took the opportunity to display my ignorance by posting a knee jerk response to the Shostakovich.

Yes I know. As long as LutzDance is happy.

 

[LutzDance]

The 2nd movement was available on a compilation called Tearjerkers from my local public library growing up, so yes, I'm familiar with it. I think I prefer Ratmansky's choreography. You're a ballet connoisseur, I only know what I like.

This hard sell music won't help Nathan. He's already at a disadvantage over more effusive skaters who'd kiss the ice, call out 'I love you!' to their spouse/mother/cockerspaniel. He doesn't even sob in the kiss and cry! He'd have to land 8 quads to even stand a chance.

I've watched Ratmansky's choreography as well - it's one of my favorite works of his and I was really glad to be able to see it live. I do prefer MacMillan's interpretation - his just seems more organic to me. Won't call myself a ballet connoisseur, just an enthusiast

I know it won't help him. It's all about my personal whims haha

But also part of me just want the figure skating world to embrace something out of the beaten path and be a bit more open to music that does not scream adrenaline or blood and tears. I really hope we can normalize using *all genres of* music in a competitive program and not have to categorize them into sellable or not. Any music can be sellable if the choreographer and the skater have a fundamental understanding of it and the audience are willing to give it a chance.

 

[LutzDance]

Sorry for making so many posts, but I want to add that I'm happy for him to try any classical music, in the broadest sense. He said Mozart was his favorite composer, and I'd be excited to see him use any Mozart music. Bach, for his total blend of rationality and emotion, would also be a good fit; Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Fauré, Ravel, Bruckner, Mahler...there're just so many choices!

 

[shine]

Even though I was entertained by Sam's choreo sequences, sometimes I can't help but feel they trivialized Nathan's talent. Yes, the body coordination and commitment he showed in those sequences were admirable, but it doesn't require a ton of musical understanding to carry out an eight-count choreography to a rhythmically and compositionally straight-forward piece of music. But also, Nathan has just done four/five quads at that point so I guess he deserves a (dance) break

That's how I feel too. I think his artistic talent is so much more than just being that cool kid who does breakdancing moves on the ice, which i know ironically is what won him a lot of fans. But different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I would also be thrilled for him to do Shostakovich's Second Piano Concerto. It has a heart-rendingly soft second movement that's even more tender and genuine than Truman Sleeps, and a glorious first movement that's filled with delicious opportunities for some allegro phrasing. (If there's one video out of the four linked that I want everyone to check out, it's the Second Movement. It makes me want to cry in a good way.)

Ah also one of my favorite slow movements of all time. Emanuel Sandhu used it as part of his free skate way back in the days, and it has always stuck with me: https://youtu.be/lttgcHKVmVs?t=114 It's one of my top picks for Nathan too! Call me old fashioned, but I miss the days when lyrics weren't allowed in competitive skating. With a few exceptions, I feel the music choices had more depth and the skaters in general were doing more and being more creative with the music, instead of just letting the words carry them on.

Would be so cool if Nathan could take these classical pieces and combine them with modern dance type choreography.

 

[LutzDance]

Ah also one of my favorite slow movements of all time. Emanuel Sandhu used it as part of his free skate way back in the days, and it has always stuck with me: https://youtu.be/lttgcHKVmVs?t=114 It's one of my top picks for Nathan too! Call me old fashioned, but I miss the days when lyrics weren't allowed in competitive skating.

Thank you for sharing Sandhu's program - the slow movement made me tear up again. The cut into the Tchai though was quite jarring...They are not even in the same key!

ETA: Ok I watched it again (another video?). The Triple Axel did help with the transition.

Would be so cool if Nathan could take these classical pieces and combine them with modern dance type choreography.

Exactly. He's the guy to pull this off

 

[Joe Mendoza]

Ooooh...maybe Guillaume Cizeron can work with MFD and Sam on his FS.

 

[Gilligan]

Wow... I’m really impressed, LutzDance and shine. You make so many good points I want to respond to.

For now, all I can say is, I vastly prefer classical music. We would have been spared choreography that is a literal spell out of the lyrics, like in the first half of one of Nathan’s recent programs.

And I'm on board for Shostakovich's 2nd movement, if someone can make a good cut that includes faster tempo music as well, so it isn't too repetive in a long program.

 

[shine]

Thank you for sharing Sandhu's program - the slow movement made me tear up again. The cut into the Tchai though is quite jarring...They are not even in the same key!

ETA: Ok I watched it again (another video?). The Triple Axel did help with the transition.

Haha, a bit jarring definitely. But it *sort of* worked You could argue that toward the end of the Shostakovich section it was already no longer in C major, and the last note ended on G, followed by A as the first note from Tchaikovsky, which didn’t immediately start in the tonic D major, but in a short series of modulations which eventually led to D major. So the last part of Shos almost worked like part of the modulations

 

[Gilligan]

LutzDance, if you like ballet inspired music, I prefer shine's idea of the Rachmaninov Cello Sonata in G minor, as used in Penumbra.

Re: Agon and Stravinsky Violin Concerto, if you want to go with somewhat dissonant music, I like Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. Throw out the plot and skate to a good cut that includes 'the people make merry' and 'Romeo and Juliet before parting' (the bedroom pas de deux). Just skip the horribly over used Dance of the Knights and that would do very well for me.

 

[LutzDance]

Yay we have three votes on Shos 2nd movement. If anyone from Nathan’s camp lurks on GS, please let the team know

Haha, a bit jarring definitely. But it *sort of* worked You could argue that toward the end of the Shostakovich section it was already no longer in C major, and the last note ended on G, followed by A as the first note from Tchaikovsky, which didn’t immediately start in the tonic D major, but in a short series of modulations which eventually led to D major. So the last part of Shos almost worked like part of the modulations

Haha props to the musical details that went into this analysis I had no idea what notes there were. It was just my brain perceiving a “bam” and voila, completely different music!

But on this topic though, I do wish all choreographers strive to keep some kind of continuation when splicing two pieces of music together, and keeping the modulation is always a good idea (though it didn’t quite work out here ). And please, never cut in the middle of a phrase

LutzDance, if you like ballet inspired music, I prefer shine's idea of the Rachmaninov Cello Sonata in G minor, as used in Penumbra.

Re: Agon and Stravinsky Violin Concerto, if you want to go with somewhat dissonant music, I vastly prefer Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. Throw out the plot and skate to a good cut that includes 'the people make merry' and 'Romeo and Juliet before parting' (the bedroom pas de deux). Just skip the horribly over used Dance of the Knights and that would do very well for me.

Yeah the Rach could work too. I remember Zoueva once made an exquisite program for Gordeeva/Grinkov using Rachmaninov’s Vocalise, so I will throw that one in as well.

As to dissonance music, I would prefer Prokofiev’s violin sonatas to his ballet music Don’t get me wrong, I love the more “mainstream” music from Stravinsky and Prokofiev, such as the the Firebird and R&J, and I vastly prefer Prokofiev’s R&J to Tchaikovsky’s (the film score doesn’t belong to the same category). But I feel there’s been enough programs using these works (or I’ve watched these ballets enough times?) that I won’t be super pumped to see another one. The pieces I mentioned have so little chance of actually making it into the skating world that I’d be overjoyed to see one decent program using any of them. The abstraction and lack of narrative in these pieces create a unique challenge for choreographers and performers to tackle, and it could be very rewarding if they manage to figure it out.

 

[Gilligan]

I know it won't help him. It's all about my personal whims haha

But also part of me just want the figure skating world to embrace something out of the beaten path and be a bit more open to music that does not scream adrenaline or blood and tears. I really hope we can normalize using *all genres of* music in a competitive program and not have to categorize them into sellable or not. Any music can be sellable if the choreographer and the skater have a fundamental understanding of it and the audience are willing to give it a chance.

Nathan does NOT need an artistic bandaid like East of Eden. To me he's a great artist-- that's why I watch his skating, although sometimes his jumps can be very pretty. It's just that I selfishly prefer music I like. I also think no matter how sincerely Nathan meant it when he said all he wants is to achieve his goals, let the judges do what they may... it would be easier on him if the decision was in his favor. And music that appeals to a significant proportion of people--rather than leave them confused, failing to draw them in--can help with that. The Olympic season is not the time to blaze new trails.

Nathan knows this already. All we can do is wait and see. *shrug*

That's how I feel too. I think his artistic talent is so much more than just being that cool kid who does breakdancing moves on the ice, which i know ironically is what won him a lot of fans.

[...]

Would be so cool if Nathan could take these classical pieces and combine them with modern dance type choreography.

This exactly!

Oh, I just saw your last post. LutzDance, who used the bedroom pdd from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet? And the people make merry? Links, please! I refuse to believe these are overused pieces of music!

 

[LutzDance]

Oh, I just saw your last post. LutzDance, who used the bedroom pdd from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet? I demand proof! I refuse to believe this is an overused piece of music!

You replied too fast! I just edited it as I realized I couldn’t recall anyone using the pas de deux lol. I think Deniss used the death of Mercutio, among others, as part of the program this season. Kudos to him for shining a bit of light on the less recognized pieces in the ballet!

I guess I just instinctively didn’t want another R&J

The Olympic season is not the time to blaze new trails

Yet he brought Nemesis and the Rite of Spring (which had been used like what? three times in major competitions before?) to his last Olympic Season.

 

[Gilligan]

Sorry I can't go for Vocalise. If we're going to do Gordeeva and Grinkov music in that slow dreamy realm, give me Reverie. Even better, give me a well cut version of Chopin Piano Concerto No.2. Or Beethoven's Emperor Concerto (no Katia/Sergei link, just music I like).

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Sorry for making so many posts, but I want to add that I'm happy for him to try any classical music, in the broadest sense. He said Mozart was his favorite composer, and I'd be excited to see him use any Mozart music. Bach, for his total blend of rationality and emotion, would also be a good fit; Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Fauré, Ravel, Bruckner, Mahler...there're just so many choices!

For Mozart, how about Sonata no. 8 in A minor? (I especially like the bit from 14:40) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKs1WpMJ0X8

Poulenc's Sonata for Two Pianos is quite an interesting piece and the larghetto is very nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V87wGyfUQiQ
He'd probably want to go for something that has emotional resonance with most fans though... Poulenc is kinda bizarre

 

[Gilligan]

Yet he brought Nemesis and the Rite of Spring (which had been used like what? three times in major competitions before?) to his last Olympic Season.

New (unenforceable ) rule:
no editing posts after I've already liked them.

yes he did, and kudos to him for his courage or willingness to stick with what his team decided. in restrospect it didn't seem he was comfortable with MLD though.

 

[shine]

LutzDance, if you like ballet inspired music, I prefer shine's idea of the Rachmaninov Cello Sonata in G minor, as used in Penumbra.

Re: Agon and Stravinsky Violin Concerto, if you want to go with somewhat dissonant music, I like Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. Throw out the plot and skate to a good cut that includes 'the people make merry' and 'Romeo and Juliet before parting' (the bedroom pas de deux). Just skip the horribly over used Dance of the Knights and that would do very well for me.

Wow you remember my post from quite some time ago! did you use to post here under another username?

I’d still love for him to skate to that but now I have an even better pick if we are just naming classical pieces we want Nathan to skate to: Prokofiev’s cello sonata. It has the right amount of avant garde to not be trite, but also enough soulful lyricism that allows for expressive tenderness and emotional punch. Could be glorious. Ahhhh one can dream.

Edit: I still think Nathan’s music choices for 2018 were for the ages.

 

[Gilligan]

People lurk threads without posting, sometimes. I just saw somebody saying she'd gone 10 years without making a single tweet but got provoked, finally.

I don't come by all this grumpiness just because I've been reading bold demands for 'LutzDance pleasing' unconventional cerebral music.

ETA I agree his choices in 2018 were for the ages. They deserve to be well-remembered.

 

[LutzDance]

For Mozart, how about Sonata no. 8 in A minor? (I especially like the bit from 14:40) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKs1WpMJ0X8

Poulenc's Sonata for Two Pianos is quite an interesting piece and the larghetto is very nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V87wGyfUQiQ
He'd probably want to go for something that has emotional resonance with most fans though... Poulenc is kinda bizarre

Ahh a Mozart Andante on the piano always gets me. Although I usually prefer something with more instruments, like a concerto, as they add to the complexity of interpretation. And Poulenc is bizzare indeed but I, apparently the devil’s advocate for weird music, heard the castanets and decided to like it

no editing posts after I've already liked them.

You also liked too fast! jk jk

ETA: Our thread has turned into a classical music therapy session! Let’s keep it up lol