Corrupt Russian Dance Panel?

[Mathman]

Begging pardon of any Ukrainian board members, I find it difficult to locate 2 Ukrainians who agree about anything significant...

Where I came from we say, "You can always tell a Swede. But you can't tell him much!"

Also ... has the ISU stopped tossing 3 random scores? The computer scoring program has to be compromised to assure that the "correct" judges' scores will be counted at all competitions involved in the fix. And wouldn't all the tech panelists have to be recruited as well so they don't make "wrong" calls?

AFAIK that hasn't happened yet. Someone sneaking in an tampering with the computer. (It's just a matter of time, though, LOL.

But the thing about the random draw, that could work either for against the conspirators. If there were four bad guys on a panel of ten, the draw might waeken their hand (if their scores were randomly thrown out), or strengthen it (if some of the good guys' scores were discarded instead).

I'm no fan of the anonymous judging...

I think the ISU's justification of anonymous judging is classic.

The assumption is, the judges are honest, the federations are crooks. The judges want to judge impartially but if they do, they will get in trouble with their federations who expect them to go along with the game plan.

Therefore, anonymous judging is good because the judges can vote their conscience and then afterward lie to their fedeartion chiefs about it and get away with it. "Yup, boss, I voted for the Lithuanian over the guy from Hong Kong, just like you told me to. It must have been someone else that gave the Hong Kong guy all those 7's in PCSs." hwell:

 

[chuckm]

Thank you. 7 official Former Soviet Nations, which I thought was the minimum it would be; but also alot of other countries with Soviet connections of some kind. So you see how if even the people in control did not have some corrupt individuals it would be hard to avoid.

The Georgian judge does have a Georgian name, but in studying the JGP protocols (where the identities of the judges are known) I have noticed that the Georgian judge gave high PCS and GOE to the same skaters/teams that the Russian judge did, and low PCS and GOE scores to the same skaters/teams as well. In return, the Russian judge boosted the Georgian ice dance team.

Political differences between the formers SSRs and Russia do not seem to affect their relationship on judging panels. It's 'I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine'.

 

[Mathman]

Exactly, I wonder why nobody is complaining about tech specialist at ISU who openly express his opinions on screwing up certain French team

Who is that? I'll complain!

The increasing power of the tech specialist vis-a-vis the judges!That's another fascinating ISU-ism.

Here's what I think. Cinquanta and his posse want to consolidate as much power as possible in their own hands. That is, in the hands of the ISU bureaucracy. To do this, he must take it away from the federations.

It's like the strong CEO who serves at the pleasure of the Corporate Board, but secretly thinks the Board is a bunch of idiots and that he could run the company better on his own.

 

[oxade21]

Who is that? I'll complain!

The infamous Dostatny

Anyway, this discussion is so pointless and offensive in a way. All those countires are independent states and that's not all their fault that there are no representation in Dance from countires like India or Cameroon. If you have problem with Balkov judging for Uzbeksitan, send Joan McLeod to do his job for that country.

 

[Mathman]

Unless we find a different way of judging and scoring in Dance, nothing can change.

I don't think a different way of judging and scoring would help. Supposedly, that was the rationale for the CoP in the first place.

And yes, any judged sport is going to have it's scandals.

But I do not think that it is impossible to change the mindset and the "corporate culture" of an organization, over time.

In the past, figure skating hitched it's fortunes to the Olympic wagon. The trouble with that was that for the greater part of the twentieth century the Olympics were little more than a surrogate battlefield for the Cold War. Peggy Fleming won a Gold Medal. This proves Capitalism is better than Communism.

In the third millenneum, I don't see anything that would prevent figure skating from taking on a more international spirit, little by little.

If you have problem with Balkov judging for Uzbeksitan...

I think what most people object to is that the ISU allows Balkov to judge at all. He is absolutely a proven crook.

 

[life684]

Now the problem is that USA, Canada, Germany and Italy dontthey gang up against russians, so should that be not checked.

 

[Mathman]

Now the problem is that USA, Canada, Germany and Italy dontthey gang up against russians, so should that be not checked.

Not so sure about Canada. Statistics show that Canadian judges low-balled Michelle Kwan every chance they got, LOL.

 

[oxade21]

I don't think a different way of judging and scoring would help. Supposedly, that was the rationale for the CoP in the first place.

And yes, any judged sport is going to have it's scandals.

But I do not think that it is impossible to change the mindset and the "corporate culture" of an organization, over time.

In the past, figure skating hitched it's fortunes to the Olympic wagon. The trouble with that was that for the greater part of the twentieth century the Olympics were little more than a surrogate battlefield for the Cold War. Peggy Fleming won a Gold Medal. This proves Capitalism is better than Communism.

In the third millenneum, I don't see anything that would prevent figure skating from taking on a more international spirit, little by little.

I agree with you, but I do no agree with a notion that if you are from former Soviet Union you are authomatically more inclined to be corrupt then the others. If you want to talk about Cold War, that rethorics is more common among Western mindset. Just look at the SLC scandal, nobody still knows for sure what exactly happened, every side has its own version but Russians were the ones to got blamed for everything even though it was clear that Canada was not so spotless in the whole conandrum.
If you want to change that mindset, start with yourself, and I do not mean you personally.
It is like in US foreign policy, it is our way or highway. The only democracy that should exist and there are no shades to it. The current political situation in Eastern Europe is so tense, that I hardly doubt that Lithuanian judge would ever vote for Russian skater by his own will. But here we come and still hear ohh yes, Poland is former communist country so by default there is something worng must be there.

 

[chuckm]

Anyway, this discussion is so pointless and offensive in a way. All those countires are independent states and that's not all their fault that there are no representation in Dance from countires like India or Cameroon. If you have problem with Balkov judging for Uzbeksitan, send Joan McLeod to do his job for that country.

Balkov doesn't judge for Uzbekistan---Rokhin and Gagarina do. And there's nothing in it for Uzbekistan if they allowed a Canadian judge to represent them. Canada has only one vote on a panel, not the 3-5 potential votes the Russian fed has. It's a rare thing for a panel not to have a Russian judge (and at least one other "loaned" Russian), but there have been many panels with no US or Canadian judge. A Russian promise of support for Uzbek skaters and teams carries far more influence than what any other federation can provide.

 

[blue dog]

I think the judges should abide by the rules of the athletes and must be citizens of the nations they judge for, or hold passports of that nation. I'm not talking about Soviet nations, but other nations, like Israel. Currently, Israel has judging for her:

Katalin Alpern (Hungarian; never lived in Israel)
Korytek (Ukrainian; never lived in Israel--in Lillehammer, he gave Baiul the first place vote over Kerrigan; his son was Baiul's long-time coach before she moved to Zmievskaya)

Judges aren't bound by citizenship or permanent residency laws the way the athletes are.

I agree with oxade--although Russian judges have been blamed for hanky-panky in the past, someone once posted here that when a statistical analysis was conducted of judges awarding higher marks for their skaters, the biggest culprits were East Germany (no longer around; in fact, in 1988, to try to make it harder for Debra Thomas to win, the East German judge placed Caryn Kadavy higher than Debra Thomas in the SP) and...Canada. Mrs. Senft, that other famous judge who busted Balkov has been known to give top three marks to Canadian skaters or teams in the second-to-last group. She has even been on panels where her own daughter was competing. YOU SHOULD NOT JUDGE YOUR OWN KIDS!

As for the US judge, unlike other judges, the US judges need to perhaps start sticking by their own skaters. Back in the 6.0 days, US judges would purposely mark down their own skaters so as not to seem biased. The US judge in Albertville marked Paul Wylie 3rd (had he marked him 2nd he would've been 2nd in the SP) in the SP. He also marked Paul 2nd in the LP--again, had he marked Paul 1st, Paul would have won.

I think we're all wrong about the former Soviet judges marking up Russian skaters--there's no incentive for them doing so. Not to mention, there's a lot of bitterness between the former Soviet groups. Certainly a Georgian judge has no incentive marking up a Russian skater! It just turned out that this competition didn't have the #1 American team competing. It looks like a Soviet nationals, because, the nations competing just happened to be those same nations.

And to whomever said that the technical specialist is the most powerful person in the event, they are right--those are the people who should be checked for bias, not the judges. The judges, no offense to those highly qualified people, have become nothing more than data entry personnel who are told practically where their range should be by the technical specialist. We should have multiple technical specialists evaluating different things. A jump specialist, a step specialist...

 

[chuckm]

Benoit Lavoie of Canada has also been known to give Canadian skaters ridiculously high marks in relation to their performance.

But in many cases, judges do tend to support the skaters from their own federations. That is not a particular problem because federations (other than the former SSRs) have at most one vote on a panel. If the judge marks a skater / team too high or too low, the marks will be thrown out. But when one federation is represented by multiple judges all acting in concert, that doesn't happen because only one high and low are discarded.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Benoit Lavoie of Canada has also been known to give Canadian skaters ridiculously high marks in relation to their performance.

Oh god thank you so much for saying that!!! That particular judge has always aggravated me to the highest degree, he is so obviously and repeatedly nationalistic it is glaring. Benoit Lavoie, Bill McLaughlin, Debbie Islam, those are the 3 culprits to remember most from Canada over the last decade. They are as corrupt and blinded by nationalism as any Marie Reine Le Gougne.

Some examples off the top of my head for these 3:

Bill McLaughlin- at the 1997 World Champions Bourne/Kraatz had only one 1st place ordinal in every single program. That one first place ordinal in every single program gave from Mr. McLaughlin. Atleast in the first compulsory dance, the Golden Waltz, and the free dance, they did have some 2nd place ordinals, and 1 of the 2 Russian teams had some kind of mistake. The worst of all was in the second compulsory dance and the original dance were no other judge had them higher then 3rd, probably since those more dramatic and intense dances did not suit their style as well, and some judges had them 4th or 5th, yet the Mr. McLaughlin still deemed a 1st place ordinal appropriate even in those dances.

Debbie Islam- Elvis Stojko may have landed the first quad toe-triple toe in history at the 97 GP final in Canada in 1997, but with a fall on his second triple axel and a step out of a triple loop, a perfect 6.0 for technical merit would no longer seem justified, especialy with his main rivals Eldredge and Urmanov left to skate. It seems all of the judges recognized this except Debbie Islam, who gave Stojko his only 6.0 despite the mistakes, a 6.0 for techinical merit along with a 5.9 for presentation.

Then at the GP final in 2002 she apparently felt it fair to give Sale/Pelletier the combination of 5.9 techinical merit, and 6.0 for presentation, the only judge to give them a 11.9 total score, before their main rivals Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze even skated.

Benoit Lavoie- At the 2001 World Championships, as many of you will recall Sale/Pelletier even with a singled side by side double axel were awarded the title over a fairly clean Berezhnaya/ Sikharulidze. Benoit Lavoie was one of the six judges to vote for Sale/Pelletier in that 6-3 split but he went even further then that. He gave Sale/Pelletier 5.9, 5.9 and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze 5.7, 5.8, the only judge to have as big as a .3 gap in total score. Wow so apparently Sale/ Pelletier with a mistake are still .3 better then Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, I wonder if he feels they would deserve to beat them even with 3 falls or something.

In the short program Sale/Pelletier also made a major booboo on side by side jumps, Jamie stumbling out/hands down with step out on her side by side triple toe. They still finished 3rd in the short, and in fact lost 2nd place in the short on only a 5-4 split to Shen/ Zhou. I thought this was quite generous but nobody was more generous then Benoit Lavoie. He actually had the audacity to give Sale/Pelletier with an almost fall in the short program 5.6 required elements, 5.9 presentation and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze 5.7 required elements, 5.8 presentation; meaning he only had Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze ahead of Sale/ Pelletier on a tiebreak!!! He was the only judge to have Jamie even missing the triple toe in the short program only behind a clean Elena and Anton on a tiebreak mark, ridiculous!!! Also he gave Shen/Zhou 5.7 required elements, 5.5 presentation, so Jamie even blowing her triple toe in the short program (remember the program any missed element is supposed to be disaester in the marks) was a full .3 in total score better then Shen/Zhou according to him, the only judge to have them so far ahead under these circumstances.

 

[slutskayafan21]

As for the US judge, unlike other judges, the US judges need to perhaps start sticking by their own skaters. Back in the 6.0 days, US judges would purposely mark down their own skaters so as not to seem biased. The US judge in Albertville marked Paul Wylie 3rd (had he marked him 2nd he would've been 2nd in the SP) in the SP. He also marked Paul 2nd in the LP--again, had he marked Paul 1st, Paul would have won.

This is not correct. Paul Wylie only got one 2nd place ordinal in the short program at the 1992 Olympics, and his only 2nd place ordinal was from the U.S judge. All other 8 judges had him 3rd or worse; from the rest he had four 3rds, three 4th, and a 5th in the short program. As for the long program only 2 judges had Wylie 1st, the U.S judge had him 2nd, but even if he had him 1st Wylie would still have been 2 judges short of winning, just losing a 6-3 split instead of a 7-2 split. As it was Wylie only won silver only a 5-4 split, and had the U.S judge had him 3rd in the long he would have lost the silver to Petr Barna. Wylie's ordinals in the long included only two 1sts (to Petrenko's 7), three 2nds (and he needed every one to win the silver, so the U.S judges vote was needed for the silver), two 3rds, a 4th, and a 5th. Here are the ordinals from the event if you are interested:

http://www.winter-olympic-memories.com/

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Why does the word conspiracy always come up in a topic like this. We are talking about bias not conspirators,

A French judge will favor a French skater; an American judge may well favor an Amercian skater; a Japanese judge will favor a Japanese skater. A Russian judge from whatever country he represents will favor a Russian skater. If there are several judges with ties to Moscow then they will favor Russian skaters. That's the topic.

If one wants to discuss conspiracy, one should start a thread on that. I don't think conspiracies will make it between nationalities any more, at least for a while.

btw. Didn't Balkov rush off to Israel when it was proven he tapped his feet and was sentence to 2 years in purgatory? and with a new nationality he got his judgship back.

Joe

 

[slutskayafan21]

Speaking of Canadians being guilty at times of National bias themselves notice in my link of marks at the 92 Olympics how the Canadian judge Jean Mathews shamelessly holds Kurt Browning up with a 2nd place ordinal for his 3- triple performance in the long program at the 92 Olympics. His other ordinals range from 4th-9th and he finished 6th in the long and 6th overall.

Then later that year at the World Championships when Kurt Browning doubled a triple lutz in the short program another Canadian judge Jane Garden gave him a 5.9 for required elements and claimed she "didnt see it", which helped him finish 3rd in the long and stay mathematically in contention for the gold medal (although he ended up with silver).

I am a proud Canadian but I am sick of how we preach to viewers as if we were the Saints of all fair and honest judging which is fair from the truth.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Benoit Lavoie of Canada has also been known to give Canadian skaters ridiculously high marks in relation to their performance.

That is my point. We are not talking about conspiracies, we are talking about national bias, and all countries have it. In this competition, Canada has one judge, but Russian Nationals have four. That's what we are talking about.

I'm surprised posters get confused with this as though it was not obvious in SLC.

Joe

 

[blue dog]

Perhaps a solution to this would be to have judges in the free skate be judges whose countries do not have skaters in the top ten of that event. If you want to judge, you better hope your skater doesn't make the top ten.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Perhaps a solution to this would be to have judges in the free skate be judges whose countries do not have skaters in the top ten of that event. If you want to judge, you better hope your skater doesn't make the top ten.

You know I think that is a very good idea, but the best idea I thought was 5 and a half years ago by Tracy Wilson. Tracy Wilson's idea was to have judges hired and payed by the ISU, not be under any power from their federations, not to be judging for a certain country. If the ISU did not have a corrupt man in charge this would perhaps be a possability to pull off.

 

[oxade21]

That is my point. We are not talking about conspiracies, we are talking about national bias, and all countries have it. In this competition, Canada has one judge, but Russian Nationals have four. That's what we are talking about.

I'm surprised posters get confused with this as though it was not obvious in SLC.

Joe

Well, then what Balkov and Absaliamova has to do with Russia? They are not Russians Balkov is Ukrainian jew, Absaliamova is Armenian/Jewish. I think you are the one confusing bias/conspiracy and I do not blame you because those two are close relatives. I mean if they are favoring Russian skaters that means that they are favoring the skaters from certain Federation and that's not really national bias. The disucssion is that being from former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe means that those judges have bias towards Russian skaters. And I just do not agree with that, not in contemporary situation. Now it is all about influence and "what's in it for me".
And YES, technical specialsts are the ones who truly matter these days. Even by having 5 Russian judges all they can do it give huge GoE and have no other way to influence the scores, their values are called by technical specs. And it is easy to catch the cheating judge if his/her GoE are way out of place.

 

[oxade21]

Perhaps a solution to this would be to have judges in the free skate be judges whose countries do not have skaters in the top ten of that event. If you want to judge, you better hope your skater doesn't make the top ten.

Well that exactly is the problem, there are NO qualified judges from countires outside those top ten, even in those countries they are hard to find