How Should Junior Grand Prix Finalists be Selected?

[Climb]

Pull back.

No one is advocating for discrimination. What you term as "injustice" is really just people doing the best they can in the face of unfortunate circumstances.

No one says you have to like it. I understand - I'm not a fan of COVID myself. But it's completely unfair to blame the ISU or event organizers for something completely out of their control. As for who to blame... you can blame the French government, but I seriously doubt they made their decision based on whether Russian juniors could attend a skating competition.

I know what i'm talking about.
All your ideas about using placements put Russian skaters at a clear disadvantage.
When let's say Americans have 7 GPs to earn their placements scores, Russians would have only 5 GPs.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

 

[el henry]

You are correct. It doesn't really change anything. My intention was purely to clarify that part cause it could mislead people.
You like many others in this thread advocate for discrimination. The injustice was done once in France and now you want to do this again.
There is nothing to talk about.

We are advocating for fairness, for those who competed in Courchevel and those who did not.

Any solution must be fair for *both* groups and not just one. Otherwise, injustice is done to those who competed at Courchevel.

Has nothing to do with discrimination

 

[chuckm]

I know what i'm talking about.
All your ideas about using placements put Russian skaters at a clear disadvantage.
When let's say Americans have 7 GPs to earn their placements scores, Russians would have only 5 GPs.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Russia didn't have to be in the position it is with respect to the JGP events (and the GP events coming up in FRA and ITA, as well). They could have taken the steps to have the Sputnik vaccine validated and approved by the EU, but they didn't---instead they withdrew from the French JGP events and then packed two other events with 4 and 5 Russian entries in each discipline. And the JGPF entries will now be necessarily unfair to one group or the other.

The same situation is coming up with the GP since the EU has said they will impose quarantines unless the competitors are fully vaccinated with accredited vaccines, and pass a CoVid test. And the Sputnik vaccine has not been validated.

So Russia is in the same situation with the French and Italian GPs as they were with the French JGPs. Now what? Will the ISU allow packed Russian fields in the other events, and another Final 'qualification' method?

 

[4everchan]

... and that's exactly why I said it was best to leave politics and nations out of the discussion, because one way or another, the real responsible is COVID and the planet is simply trying to cope with it, the best they can... and the decision making process to hold events or for participants to be able to travel is not something the athletes themselves can control, nor the ISU can manage. So, we go back to square 1... the ISU can only try to find a solution that honours the athletes in a fair and even way.

 

[yume]

Russia didn't have to be in the position it is with respect to the JGP events (and the GP events coming up in FRA and ITA, as well). They could have taken the steps to have the Sputnik vaccine validated and approved by the EU, but they didn't---instead they withdrew from the French JGP events and then packed two other events with 4 and 5 Russian entries in each discipline. And the JGPF entries will now be necessarily unfair to one group or the other.

The same situation is coming up with the GP since the EU has said they will impose quarantines unless the competitors are fully vaccinated with accredited vaccines, and pass a CoVid test. And the Sputnik vaccine has not been validated.

So Russia is in the same situation with the French and Italian GPs as they were with the French JGPs. Now what? Will the ISU allow packed Russian fields in the other events, and another Final 'qualification' method?

Is there any fed of any sport in this world which can make approve a vaccine? Figure skating is a sport among a million and the task was to send 13yo/14yo to competitions with usually 34 spectactors. Even if the fed had sent a letter to the government, begging to get the vaccine approved by EU, it isn't that easy (and i think the government have been trying for months). Especially when vaccines are becoming geopolitical weapons and that financial interests are in the way.
That's a way too big task.

 

[zebobes]

I think it is highly unlikely that the ISU will expand the fields for a JGPF. I think including all the gold medalists doesn't work, because we could end up with up to 7 different gold medalists, some of whom may have only competed once. I think that the only automatic qualifiers should be double gold medalists, and then use the highest total score for the remaining spots.

For pairs, there is no need to have different rules as there are only 4 pairs competitions, so the qualification can proceed as normal.

This way, those lower scoring gold medalists can still have their victories honored if they can come back stronger in a second event, but leave enough room for just those who have the highest total scores.

 

[Climb]

... and that's exactly why I said it was best to leave politics and nations out of the discussion, because one way or another, the real responsible is COVID and the planet is simply trying to cope with it, the best they can... and the decision making process to hold events or for participants to be able to travel is not something the athletes themselves can control, nor the ISU can manage. So, we go back to square 1... the ISU can only try to find a solution that honours the athletes in a fair and even way.

Well, managing things is their job. If a hosting country doesn't allow skaters from certain countries to compete then they shouldn't host an event.
It is kinda too late to talk about but ISU could relocate skaters from French GPs to other events and look for other possible locations (like what happened with China -> Italy). That's how you preserve fairness and equality.

 

[[email protected]]

It's also a very theoretical thing to talk about judging inconsistency (having in mind that the Russians "as usual" will be overscored) now that Isabeau Levito scored above 200.

No doubt she is good. She reminded me of Medvedeva in her junior 2014-15 season. But is she that good? Medvedeva scored 179 in the very same Courchavel. I read comments here. With very few exceptions it was an on-going praising - a "fan fest" in supposedly analytical section. Not a single use of the word "muscled" that accompanied Evgenija for as long as I can remember. But Isabeau's axel is at least as "muscled" as Medvedeva's one. And many of her other jumps show a vast potential for improvement.

So much for the notion of special treatment of the Russians. The sum of 2 scores is the only relevant indicator now. And if Isabeau can repeat or exceed her 200+ score facing Russian skaters I am quite sure that she will get the JGPF.

And one more thing. Euronews said that starting yesterday the USA is in the EU's "red list". I wonder how the rhetoric of some people here changed should the US skaters face the same quarantine requirement as the Russians did.

 

[FelineFairy]

They could have taken the steps to have the Sputnik vaccine validated and approved by the EU

Sorry, but you are mixing up two very different things. Validation of a vaccine is done by WHO, which has its (scientific) reasons not to validate Sputnik yet. Approving for entry, placing a country into a red/orange/green zone and inventing test and quarantine regulations is not even a EU, but a local government decision. Moreover, I believe it to be a predominantly (not very intellectual) political decision. Just check German regulations where countries in the red zone are NOT the countries with the highest numbers of cases per day. In Russia the same kind of "intellectual" governmental decision does not admit Pfizer or Moderna. The difference is that at least they don't make athletes spend 10 days in quarantine. A test is enough. And that makes the restrictions for athletes feasible, and those in France not feasible. Hence the fairness/unfairness of treatment.
What I want to say: I am not questioning countries' policies on handling their health protection systems. They are entitled to their choices. I am questioning the opinions of people who consider these policies to be always correct, and others always false. Some healthy doubts should be always there.
That is why I do think there is a clear need for adjusting the system of choosing finalists, not only for juniors but for seniors, too. A mixed system with increasing the field is the best idea, but I doubt it would pass. A "winners only" choice is the worst approach. A "score only" is not as good as the mixed one, but not as bad as the "winners only" one. But as it is the easiest to implement, I believe it will pass.

 

[TontoK]

And one more thing. Euronews said that starting yesterday the USA is in the EU's "red list". I wonder how the rhetoric of some people here changed should the US skaters face the same quarantine requirement as the Russians did.

<snip>

I can answer that, just speaking for myself. I wouldn't care a bit, because I am an adult.

My first thought would be that these governments are making decisions based on the best interests of their citizens and not making decisions just to hurt 13 year old girls from other countries.

We all love skating, but it is not the most important thing in the world. I think we're lucky to even have skating to watch this season.

 

[4everchan]

It's also a very theoretical thing to talk about judging inconsistency (having in mind that the Russians "as usual" will be overscored) now that Isabeau Levito scored above 200.

No doubt she is good. She reminded me of Medvedeva in her junior 2014-15 season. But is she that good? Medvedeva scored 179 in the very same Courchavel. I read comments here. With very few exceptions it was an on-going praising - a "fan fest" in supposedly analytical section. Not a single use of the word "muscled" that accompanied Evgenija for as long as I can remember. But Isabeau's axel is at least as "muscled" as Medvedeva's one. And many of her other jumps show a vast potential for improvement.

So much for the notion of special treatment of the Russians. The sum of 2 scores is the only relevant indicator now. And if Isabeau can repeat or exceed her 200+ score facing Russian skaters I am quite sure that she will get the JGPF.

And one more thing. Euronews said that starting yesterday the USA is in the EU's "red list". I wonder how the rhetoric of some people here changed should the US skaters face the same quarantine requirement as the Russians did.

Not true... I actually compared her to Zhenya and talked about the calf vaulting technique which I do not like... many others replied in agreement...
So it's not true that it was a fan fest about Isabeau. Her talent and potential was recognized but also were her weaknesses.

 

[[email protected]]

Not true... I actually compared her to Zhenya and talked about the calf vaulting technique which I do not like... many others replied in agreement...
So it's not true that it was a fan fest about Isabeau. Her talent and potential was recognized but also were her weaknesses.

Why not true? I did not say that there was no criticism. There was some although the fanfares of praising were much louder including some comments that she is "better than current junior Russians". What I said is that the criticism was quite tame. And although her axel technique is quite similar to Medvedeva's the ubiquitous in 2015-2018 term "muscled" was never used.

 

[chuckm]

Yes, the EU has mentioned making US a hot zone when it comes to entries into the EU---but it has also said that US citizens would be permitted to travel to EU countries if fully vaccinated and could pass the COVID test. The US vaccines (JJ, Moderna and AZ) are fully validated by the WHO.

Sputnik, OTOH, has never been validated by the WHO because full documentation about its testing procedures has not been released.

 

[el henry]

It's also a very theoretical thing to talk about judging inconsistency (having in mind that the Russians "as usual" will be overscored) now that Isabeau Levito scored above 200.

No doubt she is good. She reminded me of Medvedeva in her junior 2014-15 season. But is she that good? Medvedeva scored 179 in the very same Courchavel. I read comments here. With very few exceptions it was an on-going praising - a "fan fest" in supposedly analytical section. Not a single use of the word "muscled" that accompanied Evgenija for as long as I can remember. But Isabeau's axel is at least as "muscled" as Medvedeva's one. And many of her other jumps show a vast potential for improvement.

So much for the notion of special treatment of the Russians. The sum of 2 scores is the only relevant indicator now. And if Isabeau can repeat or exceed her 200+ score facing Russian skaters I am quite sure that she will get the JGPF.

And one more thing. Euronews said that starting yesterday the USA is in the EU's "red list". I wonder how the rhetoric of some people here changed should the US skaters face the same quarantine requirement as the Russians did.

But the American vaccines are recognized. Got the Pfizer jabs and I can go anywhere in the EU, I think. Well, first I need to get there. No quarantine for American skaters, most of whom I believe are vaxxed. (I *think" Pfizer is approved for 12 to 17 years old, but I don't know for sure I will admit)

I wasn't even thinking of Isabeau (or Lindsay for that matter) but of the men. The only discipline in the world is not the women. Although I will say I am amazed how much I liked Isabeau's skate. Or that I even finished watching it, which never happens for me with junior women. If there are other junior women who hold spirals and Ina Bauers for as long as she does, and hold extensions as long as as she does, let me know.

Back on topic, for me, any system must be fair *both* to those who have already won medals and to those who didn't go. For all disciplines.

 

[dorispulaski]

Pfizer is ok'd for age 12 and up in the US, and now has full FDA approval. Emergency OK for 5 to 11 is expected near year end/early new year.

I am also not concerned that 6 Russian women will get huge marks, and will likely be all 6 JGPF competitors. Isabeau will likely not make it, but I am not gutted about that. She has next season. The Russian women have higher technical content and will likely deserve very high marks. If we had 8 spots, Isabeau might have a shot, but that's life.

It's the men and dancers that worry me. The Russians are not clearly better than the US dancers at the Courchevel events.

 

[NaVi]

I am also not concerned that 6 Russian women will get huge marks, and will likely be all 6 JGPF competitors. Isabeau will likely not make it, but I am not gutted about that. She has next season. The Russian women have higher technical content and will likely deserve very high marks. If we had 8 spots, Isabeau might have a shot, but that's life.

Disagree, Isabeau will almost certainly make it. I really only see about 4 of the Russians getting higher scores than Isabeau and I have doubts about their consistency plus many are doing risky things like going for the 3A combination in the SP.

 

[dorispulaski]

Disagree, Isabeau will almost certainly make it. I really only see about 4 of the Russians getting higher scores than Isabeau and I have doubts about their consistency plus many are doing risky things like going for the 3A combination in the SP.

@NaVi I hope you are right;

 

[ladyjane]

The pairs are my big worry (and it's got nothing to do with quarantines, skaters not being in France or anything). I realise the level is high in Russia, but what about the juniors from other countries? I don't like the sweeps in pairs at the JGPFs, because it gives the impression only Russia is working on developing the discipline. I like it when it's a bit more even, especially in pairs which is only popular it seems in Russia and China and the Chinese aren't showing any development in juniors as yet. Well, as far as I can see, please correct me if I'm wrong (Please do, I wish to be wrong). I would love to see good junior pairs from the US, Canada, China, Australia, Italy, anywhere. In seniors the field seems to be more evenly distributed among countries (which I prefer for an Olympic sport) but it feels as if the juniors are lacking. Just to be honest: I am pleased with the high level in one country, Russia, I just wish to see more countries stepping up the game. I sincerely wish pairs to not be a mini Russian nationals as it has been for a few years. Not because I don't like the Russian pairs (I do!) but because remaining an Olympic sport demands a more even distribution among countries, even if it's just the big federations. But, as far as scoring is concerned, there are no impediments to stick to the original placements in pairs, as they won't be hampered by the Covid-19 measures in one country as far as I know for now.

 

[Mawwerg]

I think this issue has the same root - Russia has HUGE flow of girls doing figure skating.

 

[Weathergal]

With COVID involved, it is hard for things not to get emotional – and as we all know, posters here can be very passionate, which can sometimes spill over into contentiousness even in the best of times.

But the intention of many posts here is not to discriminate but merely discuss some ideas for what the ISU could do to handle the JGPF in a way that would try to accommodate the needs of the different groups of skaters. The skaters I follow most closely are the US and Russian men, US and Russian ice dancers, and skaters from small feds so I don't have some sort of hidden agenda here. I don't take it lightly that some skaters couldn't participate, no matter where they're from. And having US or other skaters not being able to skate in later events doesn't change this. In fact, when I first saw the US was being put on the red list, I feared them not being able to compete was a real possibility.

I was relieved though that if skaters were vaccinated, they would still be able to proceed. At least for now. But who knows what the future will bring?

I don't want to turn this in a COVID post – we already have a thread for that. But here's the thing: As Tonto and others have pointed out, much as we all love skating, that isn't the most important thing here.

And as far as fairness goes, there is so much more that isn't fair about COVID than its affects on skating competitions. I hope that's something we can all agree on.