ISU announces Selection Criteria for JGPF

[lariko]

If you can figure out a way to get Alex K. 2.0 (Will Annis) into the final, I would sign up for that

In Ted’s words, a gentle reminder that no skater is anyone’s doppelgänger, and it’s not a compliment to say they are the second of someone. He is the first of Annis and Levito is the first of Levito, despite of how long someone had been watching figure skating and any passing resemblances.

Annis’s only fighting chance is a time machine for him to skate in Courchevel 2 and beat Chiu to gold. There is zero other options with his 3 and 5, and there is no way both Chiu and Annis would have ended up in the final with current criteria. Broussard with his silver is closer than Annis, though he is behind other silver medalists, Rukhin, Shaidorov, Levandi and whoever comes second in Linz if his name is not Ilya or Kirill.

Total combined puts Chiu in (I think and subject to Linz scoring) and gives Annis a close S spot.

So, basically, it’s better luck next year for Annis as far as JGP is concerned.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Samodelkina competed in Ljubljana and she scored higher on PCS there than in Krasnoyarsk (without a fall, but her combo was with a mistake too). And she scored more than 10 points higher than Thorngern overall. Even Minchae Kim could easily beat Thorngern (if there were not some unfortunate calls and unfortunate mistake on a spin/no spin)... The point is - some of the people commenting here actually watched all those skaters from JGP during the actual performances, compared those skaters neck to neck in a live time, so they don't complain about it for no reason ...

Since folks are pointing out how poor Thorngren's score is that's getting her into the GPF that got her a gold over Russians, let's do a bit of a throwback to the SENIOR grand prix in 2013-2014. Where a Russian, Anna Pogorilaya, got a gold at Cup of China 2013 with a score of 178.62 and bronze at Bompard with 184.69 and was thus 4th qualifier for the GPF. Pogorilaya's gold winning score at COC would have only been good enough for 4th at Skate America, 4th at Skate Canada, 4th at NHK, 4th at TEB, and 3rd at Rostelecom.

If we want to talk total scores - 2 Russians made the GPF in 2013-2014 because of placements and the GPs they happened to go to, when some non-Russian skaters had higher total scores than them. Pogorilaya was outscored by everyone ranked 5th-9th but still made the final. Suzuki had the 4th highest total score of everyone and was only 1st alternate. (And let's not forget how Lipnitskaia was gifted Rostelecom gold, to stay ahead of Kostner and box her out of the final over Radionova.)

Asada (1st ranked) - 412.14
Lipnitskaya (2nd ranked) - 389.03
Wagner (3rd ranked) - 388.18
Anna (4th ranked) - 363.31 [outscored by Sotnikova/Radionova & alternates Suzuki/Kostner/Gold]
Sotnikova (5th ranked) - 364.51 [outscored by Radionova & alternate Suzuki]
Radionova (6th ranked) - 375.76
Suzuki (7th ranked, 1st alt) - 373.07
Kostner (8th ranked, 2nd alt) - 363.52
Gold (9th ranked, 3rd alt) - 364.46

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It was a single error.

Two errors actually — a fall, and neglecting to do a jump in combination.

 

[el henry]

whole post

Thank you for the scoring description, I understand now.

Well, this wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with Ted It is high praise indeed from me to say that Will reminds of my wild jumper Alexei K., that Isabeau looks like Sasha, that Jacob embodies the best of Jason Brown ETA: and Donovan Carrillo too.

So if the skaters themselves tell me they don't like the comparisons, I'll stop, but otherwise I will continue to use my own voice and my own descriptors. Yours, of course, will vary and be those best suited to you. That's why we have figure skating fora

 

[Mawwerg]

Since folks are pointing out how poor Thorngren's score is that's getting her into the GPF that got her a gold over Russians, let's do a bit of a throwback to the SENIOR grand prix in 2013-2014. Where a Russian, Anna Pogorilaya, got a gold at Cup of China 2013 with a score of 178.62 and bronze at Bompard with 184.69 and was thus 4th qualifier for the GPF. Pogorilaya's gold winning score at COC would have only been good enough for 4th at Skate America, 4th at Skate Canada, 4th at NHK, 4th at TEB, and 3rd at Rostelecom.

If we want to talk total scores - 2 Russians made the GPF in 2013-2014 because of placements and the GPs they happened to go to, when some non-Russian skaters had higher total scores than them. Pogorilaya was outscored by everyone ranked 5th-9th but still made the final. Suzuki had the 4th highest total score of everyone and was only 1st alternate. (And let's not forget how Lipnitskaia was gifted Rostelecom gold, to stay ahead of Kostner and box her out of the final over Radionova.)

Asada (1st ranked) - 412.14
Lipnitskaya (2nd ranked) - 389.03
Wagner (3rd ranked) - 388.18
Anna (4th ranked) - 363.31 [outscored by Sotnikova/Radionova & alternates Suzuki/Kostner/Gold]
Sotnikova (5th ranked) - 364.51 [outscored by Radionova & alternate Suzuki]
Radionova (6th ranked) - 375.76
Suzuki (7th ranked, 1st alt) - 373.07
Kostner (8th ranked, 2nd alt) - 363.52
Gold (9th ranked, 3rd alt) - 364.46

It's not only about being outscored but being outscored with a HUGE margin. 33 points is about a half of SP . I do not complain ISU made a wrong choice between equal skaters.

 

[lariko]

Thank you for the scoring description, I understand now.

Well, this wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with Ted It is high praise indeed from me to say that Will reminds of my wild jumper Alexei K., that Isabeau looks like Sasha, that Jacob embodies the best of Jason Brown ETA: and Donovan Carrillo too.

So if the skaters themselves tell me they don't like the comparisons, I'll stop, but otherwise I will continue to use my own voice and my own descriptors. Yours, of course, will vary and be those best suited to you. That's why we have figure skating fora

Well, I am 100% with Barton, for me respecting individuals and artistic signature is extremely important and I would never call anyone a copy-cat.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Since folks are pointing out how poor Thorngren's score is that's getting her into the GPF that got her a gold over Russians, let's do a bit of a throwback to the SENIOR grand prix in 2013-2014. Where a Russian, Anna Pogorilaya, got a gold at Cup of China 2013 with a score of 178.62 and bronze at Bompard with 184.69 and was thus 4th qualifier for the GPF. Pogorilaya's gold winning score at COC would have only been good enough for 4th at Skate America, 4th at Skate Canada, 4th at NHK, 4th at TEB, and 3rd at Rostelecom.

If we want to talk total scores - 2 Russians made the GPF in 2013-2014 because of placements and the GPs they happened to go to, when some non-Russian skaters had higher total scores than them. Pogorilaya was outscored by everyone ranked 5th-9th but still made the final. Suzuki had the 4th highest total score of everyone and was only 1st alternate. (And let's not forget how Lipnitskaia was gifted Rostelecom gold, to stay ahead of Kostner and box her out of the final over Radionova.)

Asada (1st ranked) - 412.14
Lipnitskaya (2nd ranked) - 389.03
Wagner (3rd ranked) - 388.18
Anna (4th ranked) - 363.31 [outscored by Sotnikova/Radionova & alternates Suzuki/Kostner/Gold]
Sotnikova (5th ranked) - 364.51 [outscored by Radionova & alternate Suzuki]
Radionova (6th ranked) - 375.76
Suzuki (7th ranked, 1st alt) - 373.07
Kostner (8th ranked, 2nd alt) - 363.52
Gold (9th ranked, 3rd alt) - 364.46

But i didn't watch that GP in order to complain about it. If i did probably i would (and replace Akiko with Anna based on the numbers i see there, because that seems fair to me). But i watched this JGP, almost step by step, so i'm complaining only about things i literally witnessed. And that was my point - people who watched have every right to complain. And you who didn't can look into the past numbers. People are not talking about less than 10 points margin here (in your example, if you want to make a comparison with what is the topic here, it would be like Anna, Caro or Gracey taking Ashley and Julia place, not as Anna taking Akiko place). And you can watch JGP Ljubljana to see the point (and find me an example where skater who lost head to head to a skater with 10 points plus margin, qualified for the final instead of that skater)

 

[el henry]

How exactly they can be disavantaged by scores comparisons? They can't beat Russians scores? What prevent them to get higher scores in Courchavel? Ah, their own ability? What the problem then? They would lost to Russians in Courchavel anyway - if the Russians were allowed to participate there - and everyone knows it. Yet so many people are pretending that there are some disadvantages to assessment of Courchavel skaters level - that it requires some bonuses to compensate it. It's ridiculous.

Scores are not the factor for selection for JGP and they have never been the factor for selection to JGP.

So it would be unfair to make scores the end-all and be-all now.

ETA: And I'm not talking about the junior women, the discipline that for me, is the least interesting (For me, I realize they are very interesting to others ). I am looking at how this affects the junior men.

 

[ice coverage]

In Ted’s words, a gentle reminder that no skater is anyone’s doppelgänger, and it’s not a compliment to say they are the second of someone. He is the first of Annis and Levito is the first of Levito, despite of how long someone had been watching figure skating and any passing resemblances. ...

My two cents:

For me, it is one thing to use wording such as, Skater X is "reminiscent" of Skater Y -- usually with the positive intention of noting a favorable resemblance of Skater X's skating to Skater Y's skating.

But it is another thing -- which I do not like -- to refer to X as "Y, Jr." or "mini-Y" or "Y 2.0."
For me, that kind of wording goes too far, as if overlooking that X is an individual worth noticing/remembering in her/his own right.
For me, appreciating X only in the context of Y does seem disrespectful to X.

It is my ignorance that I have not heard exactly what Ted has said in this regard, but I agree that Annis should be valued as the first of Annis, Levito as the first of Levito, etc. ​

 

[LiamForeman]

In Ted’s words, a gentle reminder that no skater is anyone’s doppelgänger, and it’s not a compliment to say they are the second of someone. He is the first of Annis and Levito is the first of Levito, despite of how long someone had been watching figure skating and any passing resemblances.

What surprises me is that Levito skates nothing like Sasha. Sasha wasn't balletic. She obviously had the instruction and developed good turnout and line. Levito is not a second Sasha. I can't even think of another skater who she reminds me of.

 

[readernick]

What surprises me is that Levito skates nothing like Sasha. Sasha wasn't balletic. She obviously had the instruction and developed good turnout and line. Levito is not a second Sasha. I can't even think of another skater who she reminds me of.

Actually, she reminds me of Satoko Miyahara more than Sasha Cohen. Of course, her jumps have more height and more better rotation than Satoko, but they both show incredible attention to detail in every movement.

But, still there are differences. She is herself as Ted said.

 

[chuckm]

IIRC, Sasha Cohen had a gymnastics background prior to focusing on figure skating. That enhanced her flexibility, but it also was a detriment to maintaining good edges. She always looked good when she did her spiral, but she couldn't travel very far in that position because it forced her onto the flat of her blades.

 

[chasingneverland]

Which sport announces how their playoff works 85% into the season? Still can’t figure that part out.

In the pandemic, several. The AHL for instance cancelled the Calder Cup playoffs two/three weeks before they were supposed to happen. They also got each division to decide for themselves how they wanted to name a division champion. So several divisions just decided to go by points at the end (most of the way through the season) and one division decided to hold an extra tournament.

 

[yume]

Two errors actually — a fall, and neglecting to do a jump in combination.

One error. Her fall and inability to do a combo was on the same element. She couldn't do a combo on the 3F which is the solo jump this season (junior rules). It isn't like seniors who can put the 3T/3lo after their 2nd triple if they have a mistake on the first.

 

[alexocfp]

In the pandemic, several. The AHL for instance cancelled the Calder Cup playoffs two/three weeks before they were supposed to happen. They also got each division to decide for themselves how they wanted to name a division champion. So several divisions just decided to go by points at the end (most of the way through the season) and one division decided to hold an extra tournament.

Don’t think the 2 situations are analogous.

In hockey, you go into the season knowing that points are how teams get ranked and what the playoff format is. The pandemic halted the season, but had the pandemic not happened, the format was clearly known before the season began.

In this farce, the skaters started competing in events and didn’t know what the playoff criteria was until one game left.

A more analogous situation would be if nobody knows how the AHL playoff format works until 10 games remaining in the season, and then the league announces that the teams will be ranked, not by points, but by goals scored in the third period, or by average attendance.

 

[GretchenG]

Russian fed should buy approved vaccines for their skaters assigned to GP France asap to avoid losing GPF spots, still time.

No, wins where strongest skaters were segregated and blocked from participation should not count. Thorngren or Levito would never win 1st places in the presence of Russian Ladies. This gold is fake.

I thought it would be most fair if the skaters with the highest combined scores qualified for the final. I've been keeping track, and for the record, Isabeau Levito is the 6th finalist counting scores alone. She wouldn't have been, but Zhilina is injured. I was really shocked to see how the ISU handled this. I've no idea what possessed them do what they did.

This whole thing made me think that maybe they should always go by scores alone, but then I thought that it would take the fun out of it. A lot of us fans really look forward to the release of the.GP assignment sheets. It's fun to see who be competing against who, and to make predictions. If you're just going to look at everyone's score, then it doesn't really matter who goes up against who. And that would be really boring. To me, anyway.

Samodelkina is pretty much out of the final.. Muravieva has the best chance because she has the highest score and is a competitor in Austria, if she or Isabeau wins either way she gets the spot, she is against Zinina directly for the spot (or maybe some other surprise)

Samodelkina is out because she has a second and a third place. My best guess is that Zinina and Muravieva are going to be first and second in Austria, in no particular order. Whoever wins gets to be in the final. I'm basing this on Zhilina not skating in the final. I don't know if she's healthy, and my personal opinion is that anybody in the final should have had to skate 2 assignments.

 

[GretchenG]

No, wins where strongest skaters were segregated and blocked from participation should not count. Thorngren or Levito would never win 1st places in the presence of Russian Ladies. This gold is fake.

I think that the fairest way to choose the finalists would have been to add everyone's combined score and make the top six the finalists. I have no idea why the ISU did what they did. I can't imagine what they were thinking. For the record, though, Isabeau Levito would have made the final with her combined scores, but only because Zhilina is injured. I've been tracking everyone's numbers because I thought, for sure the ISU would do the logical thing. Silly me.

 

[GretchenG]

I thought it would be most fair if the skaters with the highest combined scores qualified for the final. I've been keeping track, and for the record, Isabeau Levito is the 6th finalist counting scores alone. She wouldn't have been, but Zhilina is injured. I was really shocked to see how the ISU handled this. I've no idea what possessed them do what they did.

This whole thing made me think that maybe they should always go by scores alone, but then I thought that it would take the fun out of it. A lot of us fans really look forward to the release of the.GP assignment sheets. It's fun to see who be competing against who, and to make predictions. If you're just going to look at everyone's score, then it doesn't really matter who goes up against who. And that would be really boring. To me, anyway.

Samodelkina is out because she has a second and a third place. My best guess is that Zinina and Muravieva are going to be first and second in Austria, in no particular order. Whoever wins gets to be in the final. I'm basing this on Zhilina not skating in the final. I don't know if she's healthy, and my personal opinion is that anybody in the final should have had to skate 2 assignments.

CORRECTION : Going by the new rules that confuse the hell out of me, if Zinina and Muravieva are first and second, they will both be in the final. Who knows, if one of them gets 3rd, they still might be in the final.

 

[GretchenG]

In Ted’s words, a gentle reminder that no skater is anyone’s doppelgänger, and it’s not a compliment to say they are the second of someone. He is the first of Annis and Levito is the first of Levito, despite of how long someone had been watching figure skating and any passing resemblances.

Annis’s only fighting chance is a time machine for him to skate in Courchevel 2 and beat Chiu to gold. There is zero other options with his 3 and 5, and there is no way both Chiu and Annis would have ended up in the final with current criteria. Broussard with his silver is closer than Annis, though he is behind other silver medalists, Rukhin, Shaidorov, Levandi and whoever comes second in Linz if his name is not Ilya or Kirill.

Total combined puts Chiu in (I think and subject to Linz scoring) and gives Annis a close S spot.

So, basically, it’s better luck next year for Annis as far as JGP is concerned.

The list of men who are likely to be in the final is the most screwed-up of any group of skaters if you compare it to what it would have been had scores been added together to choose the top six. With the women, there's only one Russian girl who is being replaced by an American who shouldn't be there. In ice dance, there's one American team who shouldn't be there, but they are taking the place of another American team. I don't follow junior pairs, but I'm guessing that all of them are Russian anyway.

 

[chasingneverland]

Don’t think the 2 situations are analogous.

In hockey, you go into the season knowing that points are how teams get ranked and what the playoff format is. The pandemic halted the season, but had the pandemic not happened, the format was clearly known before the season began.

In this farce, the skaters started competing in events and didn’t know what the playoff criteria was until one game left.

A more analogous situation would be if nobody knows how the AHL playoff format works until 10 games remaining in the season, and then the league announces that the teams will be ranked, not by points, but by goals scored in the third period, or by average attendance.

Actually no. First of all, the start date was moved back twice. Second of all, they didn't even know how many teams would be able to compete so not all the divisions had the same number of teams. This affects rankings. The pandemic didn't halt the season - the pandemic delayed the season and some teams didn't even join the season. Some teams moved due to the pandemic/travel reasons/changing affiliates before the season began. Some teams changed divisions for the season (the Canadian teams). Three teams decided not to compete/participate in the season at all.

And they didn't know how the AHL playoff format would work. They were told scheduling and the format would be determined later. What they determined was that they would cancel it with two weeks left in the season but that divisions were free to have their own playoffs if they wanted or whatever method they wanted to determine the winner of their division. Usually the first two rounds of the playoffs would determine division titles. Most divisions decided to go by points at end of the season (which they didn't know until two weeks before) and one division decided to hold their own playoffs. So no, they didn't know the playoff format. The season started middle of Feb and it wasn't until end of April that the AHL announced what they would do with the playoff/division titles - which was cancel calder cup and let divisions decide for themselves division titles.