2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 278 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

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Kamila's quote after the short: " Richter (the composer) said that this music is to remember the ones who left us. I dedicate this program to my grandmother who passed away in 2019."

nowhere did she say the program is portraying or telling a story of grief, only that she dedicates it to her grandmother.
Yep, I'm the one who took it a step further and chose to analyse the programme on two separate levels. So it's not Kamila saying that it's about grief; that was my interpretation of a possible development of the meaning of the programme, based on her saying it was dedicated to her grandmother. Nobody else has to agree with my analysis! Kamila herself might be astonished that I've gone all English major on her SP and tried to add more to it than she intends.
 
But judging Valieva's interpretation on the ice by something she said in an interview is a standard no other skater is held to, and frankly wrong. I don't think she's skating at all in contrast to the feel of the music so I see no problems. Not to mention it ignores the massive component of interpretation which is moving to the notes of the music. Because of her ballet training and flexibility she has a huge advantage in this.
Well I think I hold other skaters to it, personally. And many other people do as well. This is why Sasha was considered weakest in performance in her junior season, because she was always on beat but didn’t really emote. Take Kill Bill, for example.

I also don’t think kicking your leg out on beat where it is choreographed is necessarily an advantage interpretively— anyone can do that, the only difference is how far up the leg goes. You wouldn’t say Sasha has inferior quads because her landing position doesn’t have her foot over her head when everything else is superior.

She does have nice arms but I think I’m general she just benefits from her body shape being so lanky so it highlights it more so than with other girls. It’s especially a disadvantage for Aliona because she has such a long torso compared to her legs where as Kamila is built the opposite. So even if you compare their positions during choreographic moments they both look equally even in terms of “balletic” position, but Kamila just appears like she’s extending more because she’s longer.
 
Well I think I hold other skaters to it, personally. And many other people do as well. This is why Sasha was considered weakest in performance in her junior season, because she was always on beat but didn’t really emote. Take Kill Bill, for example.

I also don’t think kicking your leg out on beat where it is choreographed is necessarily an advantage interpretively— anyone can do that, the only difference is how far up the leg goes. You wouldn’t say Sasha has inferior quads because her landing position doesn’t have her foot over her head when everything else is superior.

She does have nice arms but I think I’m general she just benefits from her body shape being so lanky so it highlights it more so than with other girls. It’s especially a disadvantage for Aliona because she has such a long torso compared to her legs where as Kamila is built the opposite. So even if you compare their positions during choreographic moments they both look equally even in terms of “balletic” position, but Kamila just appears like she’s extending more because she’s longer.
A lot of people also thought Kill Bill was one of her best, including me. And at the time she was getting some of the highest junior PCS so the judges credited it. The criticism of Sasha has always been the FS predominantly. Talking about quads I mean Sasha often has messy landings with much less flow and longer set-ups. But do you? Sasha said she was Daenerys in her 2019 FS, in that case her musicality would be zero, but there weren't arguments based on the "story" back then.

Given most skaters don't say stories behind their programs it's already an unfair judging concept. Maybe if we made all skaters write essays about the story behind each program we could judge based on that.

I think Aliona has great control too! And she has some balletic training as well I remember. With Valieva it isn't about limbs, but the flexibility and control. One example she has a better spiral than all the current Russian skaters and can also emote with her arms during the spiral too because of her control.
 
I did mention them— I said 82 for short, and 155 for FS. I think her performance, composition, and interpretation marks are much too high, and her jump combos are almost always overscored.

I think Anna’s SP is worth maybe 83 and was underscored, and Sasha’s is worth about what she received at Skate America (77 I think?) assuming she repeats the performance aspect. Aliona with a 3A I’d put at roughly an 80 based on what we’ve seen now because she just doesn’t quite have the polished elements or skating skills we’ve seen in the past but the 3A gives her the tech boost. I think Liza was overscored in the short as well— I’d put her roughly with Sasha.

The FS is dependent on a lot of factors, but when Kamila gets off beat, and falls its like the Game of Thrones program for me. I would give it much lower PCS in performance and interpretation, as before. I don’t know how someone can be getting 9.5-10 for those marks when every program is completely different. If Sasha repeats her five quads she SHOULD win. The program she presented at test skates for me is the best of any this season. 175 roughly would be appropriate given its base value. If I were her I’d pull the 3A out of the short and focus on the quads and performance. Anna with 2 quads and Valieva would be perhaps be the hardest to judge because I think Anna’s PCS should be so much higher than anyone else’s but her base value is lower. Liza I get is good but with the 3A I don’t think she should be in the convo. Though I think she definitely deserves higher marks than Kamila for performance/interpretation/compositioneven if that program isn’t my cup of tea. As for Aliona well, she is my favorite and she can compete in the short but without quads and not having shown us a really complete FS even without a 3A, I don’t see how she can match their scores at all.
In what world does sasha without 3A deserve to match Liza in the short with 3A? Liza’s base value is 37.23 and Trusova’s is 33.01. Trusova has a small advantage in spin GOE worth maybe 1 point total across 3 spins. I can’t say Trusova has a jump GOE advantage over Liza with those ugly bent leg landings she does in the short compared to Liza’s beautiful and controlled jump landings. Neither of them have a great flip but Liza’s is more often (!) while Trusova’s is usually (e) which essentially negates Trusova’s spin GOE advantage. As for PCS, Trusova has a small (small!) advantage in skating skills and a decent sized one in transitions - she’s not Valieva or Usacheva here. The other three are subjective but in my opinion Liza’s program is much more unique and suited to her strengths.

All in all I’m seeing nothing that suggests Trusova should be able to make up the 4 points in base value.
 
with Zinina in, the JGPF is even more exciting although even if clean it will be hard for Zinina to surpass the other 4 Russians with the scores they’ve been getting. I’m more upset now at Davydov than ever since Samodelkina was so close to surpassing Zinina’s score at both JGP events. Going for the 3A+3T combo in the short when it was so unstable that she wasn’t even trying a solo 3A in the free was a terrible coaching decision and may well cost Samodelkina the chance for Grand Prix events next year. I understand at the first JGP she was trying to match Akatieva but at her second JGP she should have played it safe.

With the rest of the Super Six Juniors now going to the JGPF it will be hard for Sofia S to make the Junior worlds team especially considering her previous struggles at Junior nationals. Davydov better hope she places highly at senior nationals so she might be able to get the host spot next season as a backup
 
with Zinina in, the JGPF is even more exciting although even if clean it will be hard for Zinina to surpass the other 4 Russians with the scores they’ve been getting. I’m more upset now at Davydov than ever since Samodelkina was so close to surpassing Zinina’s score at both JGP events. Going for the 3A+3T combo in the short when it was so unstable that she wasn’t even trying a solo 3A in the free was a terrible coaching decision and may well cost Samodelkina the chance for Grand Prix events next year. I understand at the first JGP she was trying to match Akatieva but at her second JGP she should have played it safe.

With the rest of the Super Six Juniors now going to the JGPF it will be hard for Sofia S to make the Junior worlds team especially considering her previous struggles at Junior nationals. Davydov better hope she places highly at senior nationals so she might be able to get the host spot next season as a backup
Totally agree. Bad coaching indeed. Still, there is still junior RusNats for Sofia, but as you said, her Nationals hasn't been great before.

And Wikipedia has already changed the entries for senior RusNats. Zinina is now in, and Gulyakova is out. But Gulyakova is probably in anyway as I see it highly unlikely that Usacheva will be there.
 
In what world does sasha without 3A deserve to match Liza in the short with 3A? Liza’s base value is 37.23 and Trusova’s is 33.01. Trusova has a small advantage in spin GOE worth maybe 1 point total across 3 spins. I can’t say Trusova has a jump GOE advantage over Liza with those ugly bent leg landings she does in the short compared to Liza’s beautiful and controlled jump landings. Neither of them have a great flip but Liza’s is more often (!) while Trusova’s is usually (e) which essentially negates Trusova’s spin GOE advantage. As for PCS, Trusova has a small (small!) advantage in skating skills and a decent sized one in transitions - she’s not Valieva or Usacheva here. The other three are subjective but in my opinion Liza’s program is much more unique and suited to her strengths.

All in all I’m seeing nothing that suggests Trusova should be able to make up the 4 points in base value.
Trusova’s jumps are near effortless when she isn’t jumping on a broken foot and even at Skate America, you could barely tell, except maybe on the quad. You could make comments about edges but that’s competition dependent. Liza’s spins should have been downgraded at Rostelecom for example (I think nussnacker pointed it out here) and Trusova has much better transitions/skating skills. This program isn’t as “sensitive” as Liza’s but it is much more complex choreographically and deserves good marks for composition and interpretation still. I don’t think it’s an 80 program without a 3A for sure but I also don’t think Liza’s technical elements are only a 1 point difference.
 
In what world does sasha without 3A deserve to match Liza in the short with 3A? Liza’s base value is 37.23 and Trusova’s is 33.01. Trusova has a small advantage in spin GOE worth maybe 1 point total across 3 spins. I can’t say Trusova has a jump GOE advantage over Liza with those ugly bent leg landings she does in the short compared to Liza’s beautiful and controlled jump landings. Neither of them have a great flip but Liza’s is more often (!) while Trusova’s is usually (e) which essentially negates Trusova’s spin GOE advantage. As for PCS, Trusova has a small (small!) advantage in skating skills and a decent sized one in transitions - she’s not Valieva or Usacheva here. The other three are subjective but in my opinion Liza’s program is much more unique and suited to her strengths.

All in all I’m seeing nothing that suggests Trusova should be able to make up the 4 points in base value.
100%. And Valieva with the 3 clean quads and a 3A only at 155? Kostornaia could get that score with 1 3A alone, Alina has scored higher with no 3A or quads. Heavy bias towards Sasha and heavy bias against Kamila. Just my view but I think this is a symptom of being upset that Sasha isn't the one that can "always win when she's at her best" anymore.
 
A lot of people also thought Kill Bill was one of her best, including me. And at the time she was getting some of the highest junior PCS so the judges credited it. The criticism of Sasha has always been the FS predominantly. Talking about quads I mean Sasha often has messy landings with much less flow and longer set-ups. But do you? Sasha said she was Daenerys in her 2019 FS, in that case her musicality would be zero, but there weren't arguments based on the "story" back then.

Given most skaters don't say stories behind their programs it's already an unfair judging concept. Maybe if we made all skaters write essays about the story behind each program we could judge based on that.

I think Aliona has great control too! And she has some balletic training as well I remember. With Valieva it isn't about limbs, but the flexibility and control. One example she has a better spiral than all the current Russian skaters and can also emote with her arms during the spiral too because of her control.
Well I watched Game of Thrones after 2019 so going back and rewatching those programs now makes them more disappointing because it turns out Daenerys is a very sly and complex character, perhaps something Aliona could pull off but not Sasha when she performed it then. I didn’t think her GoT performances were all that brilliant anyways because she was so focused on the quads. I think going to Plushenko a season really benefited her because he was a *PERFORMER* and she grew a lot for me last season in regards to engaging with and connecting to the music more.

It is not necessarily an “unfair”‘concept because no one is explicitly required to share what the program is about. For some of the skaters explaining what they’re portraying on ice is done as a means to enhance the viewers understanding. In this way, if there is not a solid image I think the explanation should be withheld.

As for the flexibility and control, I agree there is some flexibility that enhances the body lines but in some instances to me it looks unnatural, or in others I think that we do not need acrobatics to say an element is good or complex. The arms in simple 1-5th position require no enhanced flexibility but the image is better if one can control the transition between each line. Anna can be sort of sloppy with this, especially in and out of jumps, but I would say in spirals she definitely does emote as well as Kamila, especially with her arms.

As for control I don’t know if Kamila really looks super controlled all the time explicitly because of her flexibility, especially on jump landings with her hips. I remember showing my sister one of her performances and she is totally clueless to all of the complexities but she said something about how she looked like this skating doll I had when I was five with all of the joints made to articulate and everything looked like it was going to fall apart. Which is just to say that while her extensions are lovely, especially when she spins, sometimes I think that flexibility can be negative if every component you have is extended to your limit instead of some controlled point.
 
100%. And Valieva with the 3 clean quads and a 3A only at 155? Kostornaia could get that score with 1 3A alone, Alina has scored higher with no 3A or quads. Heavy bias towards Sasha and heavy bias against Kamila. Just my view but I think this is a symptom of being upset that Sasha isn't the one that can "always win when she's at her best" anymore.
Not really. I have always favored Aliona. If there is anyone I have expressed favoritism for it was for her, not really anyone else. It was never important to me between the rest who wins. I simply have a large distaste for the judging system.
 
100%. And Valieva with the 3 clean quads and a 3A only at 155? Kostornaia could get that score with 1 3A alone, Alina has scored higher with no 3A or quads. Heavy bias towards Sasha and heavy bias against Kamila. Just my view but I think this is a symptom of being upset that Sasha isn't the one that can "always win when she's at her best" anymore.
As always, people overestimate Sasha's scoring potential just because she does many quads. That clean 5 quad skate from Test Skates were scored by many and it ranged from 180-185. Kamila just scored 185 with 3 quads and a 3A.
Doing 3 quads + 3A (Kamila) in the free is optimal, because you can take out all double jumps and it raises the BV a lot.
But quad #4 and #5 (Sasha), you need to take out triples, and the BV don't go up as much. And Sasha still needs to do the 2A, she can never take that out.
 
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Well I watched Game of Thrones after 2019 so going back and rewatching those programs now makes them more disappointing because it turns out Daenerys is a very sly and complex character, perhaps something Aliona could pull off but not Sasha when she performed it then. I didn’t think her GoT performances were all that brilliant anyways because she was so focused on the quads. I think going to Plushenko a season really benefited her because he was a *PERFORMER* and she grew a lot for me last season in regards to engaging with and connecting to the music more.

It is not necessarily an “unfair”‘concept because no one is explicitly required to share what the program is about. For some of the skaters explaining what they’re portraying on ice is done as a means to enhance the viewers understanding. In this way, if there is not a solid image I think the explanation should be withheld.

As for the flexibility and control, I agree there is some flexibility that enhances the body lines but in some instances to me it looks unnatural, or in others I think that we do not need acrobatics to say an element is good or complex. The arms in simple 1-5th position require no enhanced flexibility but the image is better if one can control the transition between each line. Anna can be sort of sloppy with this, especially in and out of jumps, but I would say in spirals she definitely does emote as well as Kamila, especially with her arms.

As for control I don’t know if Kamila really looks super controlled all the time explicitly because of her flexibility, especially on jump landings with her hips. I remember showing my sister one of her performances and she is totally clueless to all of the complexities but she said something about how she looked like this skating doll I had when I was five with all of the joints made to articulate and everything looked like it was going to fall apart. Which is just to say that while her extensions are lovely, especially when she spins, sometimes I think that flexibility can be negative if every component you have is extended to your limit instead of some controlled point.
I don't think Sasha was great with GoT. Not bad either. But I wouldn't judge her based on the show or what she said. You concede that your score would change from before you watched GoT and after. Judging should not be based on that. Like Aliona and Kamila, and frankly almost any other skater, I think Sasha performs better when she doesn't have to worry about the jumps. But even with GoT, the number of quads and elements to get through, it's a tough job, not to mention Daenerys doesn't even feature in the Night King or the other song. I have massive respect for her. Then I think they "said" she's a dragon and it suited more with the energy she was giving. But really I would just look at all the performances and think of Sasha giving a fierce performance to some dramatic GoT music. There doesn't need to be a story, or a dragon or Daenerys. Anyways it's all for nothing since Valieva was just tributing her performance to her grandma. :)
 
I did mention them— I said 82 for short, and 155 for FS. I think her performance, composition, and interpretation marks are much too high, and her jump combos are almost always overscored.

I think Anna’s SP is worth maybe 83 and was underscored, and Sasha’s is worth about what she received at Skate America (77 I think?) assuming she repeats the performance aspect. Aliona with a 3A I’d put at roughly an 80 based on what we’ve seen now because she just doesn’t quite have the polished elements or skating skills we’ve seen in the past but the 3A gives her the tech boost. I think Liza was overscored in the short as well— I’d put her roughly with Sasha.

The FS is dependent on a lot of factors, but when Kamila gets off beat, and falls its like the Game of Thrones program for me. I would give it much lower PCS in performance and interpretation, as before. I don’t know how someone can be getting 9.5-10 for those marks when every program is completely different. If Sasha repeats her five quads she SHOULD win. The program she presented at test skates for me is the best of any this season. 175 roughly would be appropriate given its base value. If I were her I’d pull the 3A out of the short and focus on the quads and performance. Anna with 2 quads and Valieva would be perhaps be the hardest to judge because I think Anna’s PCS should be so much higher than anyone else’s but her base value is lower. Liza I get is good but with the 3A I don’t think she should be in the convo. Though I think she definitely deserves higher marks than Kamila for performance/interpretation/compositioneven if that program isn’t my cup of tea. As for Aliona well, she is my favorite and she can compete in the short but without quads and not having shown us a really complete FS even without a 3A, I don’t see how she can match their scores at all.
I think 80 for Aliona with a 3A vs 83 for Anna without a 3A is pretty harsh on Aliona. Or perhaps 83 for Anna with no 3A is too high 😜
 
I honestly can’t think of anyone who deserved over 80 internationally without a 3A. Zagitova and Shcherbakova are probably the closest with backloaded 3Lz-3Lo but whenever I’ve tried to score their best short programs myself (Zagitova Olympics or GPF 2019, Shcherbakova GPF 2019 or worlds 2011) I have them at 78-79. IMO the only ones who should have ever been above 80 are Kihira, Tuktamysheva, Kostornaia, Valieva, and Higuchi
 
I honestly can’t think of anyone who deserved over 80 internationally without a 3A. Zagitova and Shcherbakova are probably the closest with backloaded 3Lz-3Lo but whenever I’ve tried to score their best short programs myself (Zagitova Olympics or GPF 2019, Shcherbakova GPF 2019 or worlds 2011) I have them at 78-79. IMO the only ones who should have ever been above 80 are Kihira, Tuktamysheva, Kostornaia, Valieva, and Higuchi
Hands down!
 
I honestly can’t think of anyone who deserved over 80 internationally without a 3A. Zagitova and Shcherbakova are probably the closest with backloaded 3Lz-3Lo but whenever I’ve tried to score their best short programs myself (Zagitova Olympics or GPF 2019, Shcherbakova GPF 2019 or worlds 2011) I have them at 78-79. IMO the only ones who should have ever been above 80 are Kihira, Tuktamysheva, Kostornaia, Valieva, and Higuchi
If we think of Yuna Kim at 78.5, there's the extra sequence but her PCS was 33.8 so we could move the 4 points to that. Everything else balances out. With better GOE spins she would have been 80+. There's a pathway to 80+ without a 3A IMO but you need 42+ TES. I'm assuming 38 is the max PCS we'll likely ever see.

What was the TES you gave when you scored Alina's Olympics SP? And were you giving 1.1x for all the jumps or just the last one?
 
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