Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Alex Fedorov]

Just look at the history!!!

and where is doping in the history of Eteri?

 

[vorravorra]

they should have known, at the very least, that there was no benefit from these drugs. You can build in your imagination any scheme for taking prohibited substances, but it will inevitably turn out to be contradictory. Because, on the one hand, the creators of such a scheme turned out to be so much smarter than WADA with all the testing methods that they ensured a systematic and at the same time traceless violation of the prohibitions, and on the other hand, the same people were so stupid that they fed the athletes, although illegal, but knowingly useless drugs.

I've just looked through the long list of athletes currently disqualified by RUSADA and there are 43 matches for meldonium, including as late as 2021. They must believe it does something to risk it. There are also four cases of trimetazidine (including a soccer player who was on both meldonium and tmz, either to make extra sure or too clueless to understand they are supposed to be analogs).

https://rusada.ru/upload/iblock/70c/Список дисквалифицированных спортсменов РУС.pdf

 

[doreen95]

Yes, in Russia. By the way, meldonium is also freely sold and advertised on TV (sometimes under the name "Mildronat"). In Australia, this is probably not the case, since the clinical efficacy of meldonium and trimetazidine has not been proven. Our doctors believe, as I understand it, that such drugs are something like a placebo (I do not mean sports, but ordinary doctors).

Ангиозил ретард

Ангиозил ретард, таблетки пролонгированного действия, покрытые оболочкой, 35 мг. Показания, противопоказания, режим дозирования, побочное действие, передозировка, лекарственное взаимодействие ФармФирма Сотекс произведено REPLEK FARM Ltd. Skopje

www.vidal.ru

This is a Russian language description of a medicine which containes TMZ as the sole active ingredient (the copy of the paper-based document inserted into the package to inform patients about the usage of the medicine).
There is a clear sentence in it (just scroll down for it): "Противопоказано применение у детей и подростков в возрасте до 18 лет" that is "contraindicated for children and adolescents under 18"

Consequently 1) the statement that Russian doctors believe TMZ to be a placebo is rather hard to believe 2) giving it to children is basically child endangerment

 

[flipsydoodle]

I guess it doesn't work that way. There are two parameters here - the initial concentration and the time elapsed since the substance entered the body.

I was suggesting maybe the TMZ breaks down to component chemicals on a specific schedule. During their research tests, they may have proportions of the different components figured out at various points of process after ingestion. In that case, they wouldn't need to know the dose ingested or the time elapsed. They might be able to project from the remains.
Since there have been TMZ positives before (with suspensions), the lab likely has a fair amount of information. It's not like it's a substance they haven't had experience with.
Note: I don't know. I am suggesting.

 

[flipsydoodle]

they should have known, at the very least, that there was no benefit from these drugs. You can build in your imagination any scheme for taking prohibited substances, but it will inevitably turn out to be contradictory. Because, on the one hand, the creators of such a scheme turned out to be so much smarter than WADA with all the testing methods that they ensured a systematic and at the same time traceless violation of the prohibitions, and on the other hand, the same people were so stupid that they fed the athletes, although illegal, but knowingly useless drugs.

There is a benefit. That's why TMZ is banned.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I've just looked through the long list of athletes currently disqualified by RUSADA and there are 43 matches for meldonium, including as late as 2021. They must believe it does something to risk it. There are also four cases of trimetazidine (including a soccer player who was on both meldonium and tmz, either to make extra sure or too clueless to understand they are supposed to be analogs).

https://rusada.ru/upload/iblock/70c/Список дисквалифицированных спортсменов РУС.pdf

who are these "they"? Athletes, coaches, some doctors? Our main problem is that while people are talking about some kind of terrifying "government doping system", we actually have anarchy, not a system.

Most cases of detection of meldonium after so many years after its ban are due to the most common stupidity. There are, of course, separate mysterious cases, for example, the episode with Krushelnitsky, but basically this is the lack of professionalism of the staff, who have not got acquainted with what the athletes are given. If Eteri had something like that, everything would have been discovered long ago. I repeat - the development of sophisticated schemes for hiding traces is incompatible with ignorance of obvious things - and everything has long been known about meldonium and this TMZ.

 

[flipsydoodle]

Consequently 1) the statement that Russian doctors believe TMZ to be a placebo is rather hard to believe 2) giving it to children is basically child endangerment

Snipped for focus.

Indeed. Why would TMZ exist as a drug if it was a placebo? Of course it's not a placebo!

 

[flipsydoodle]

who are these "they"? Athletes, coaches, some doctors? Our main problem is that while people are talking about some kind of terrifying "government doping system", we actually have anarchy, not a system.

Most cases of detection of meldonium after so many years after its ban are due to the most common stupidity. There are, of course, separate mysterious cases, for example, the episode with Krushelnitsky, but basically this is the lack of professionalism of the staff, who have not got acquainted with what the athletes are given. If Eteri had something like that, everything would have been discovered long ago. I repeat - the development of sophisticated schemes for hiding traces is incompatible with ignorance of obvious things - and everything has long been known about meldonium and this TMZ.

I don't quite understand what you're saying. But it's a fact that elite athletes get tested frequently and they only rarely get caught. The reason they get caught is rarely stupidity. Elite athletes are generally not stupid about their bodies. Those who take drugs know how to evade test positives. Thus, the hundreds of clear tests Lance Armstrong survived. But he was a doper.

 

[Amei]

IOC press conference, not a lot of substance of the situation but Mark has confirmed to his knowledge the hearing will only be addressing the individual event, not the team event.

 

[flipsydoodle]

But we don't know who gave her this drug and for what reasons and we may never know because Kamilla is a minor. And it was only a trace sample. And a trace sample is not close to being PED strong.

Snipped for focus.

Ummm....a "trace amount" in your pee sample (not to mention one batch per test of many batches of pee you excrete in a day) generally means the little bit left over from the much bigger amount you put in your body.

 

[readernick]

I don't quite understand what you're saying. But it's a fact that elite athletes get tested frequently and they only rarely get caught. The reason they get caught is rarely stupidity. Elite athletes are generally not stupid about their bodies. Those who take drugs know how to evade test positives. Thus, the hundreds of clear tests Lance Armstrong survived. But he was a doper.

To be clear, I'm not sure it's always the athletes themselves who know but rather the less than ethical doctors who are willing to help them. However, your second point is why one positive is so damning.

 

[Scott512]

I think RUSADA did Kamila a disservice by overturning the suspension. Did they really think the IOC and everyone else would just go along with this? She could be home by now being supported by her family, out of the public eye. Obviously missing the Olympics is devastating but this turn of events is so much worse. There is no good outcome at this point.

You know I've been saying for days if she's going to be suspended or banned from the Olympics why haven't they sent her home yet?
They probably can't send KV back to Russia because there's been no ruling yet on competing at the Olympics because Russia ended her suspension making her active to compete in the ladies competition until CAS rules and an immediate suspension starts in Beijing. My only thing is CAS could have made and intermediate temporary ruling on the Olympics and then saying they will have an investigation for how many months and decide on the suspension.

Let's hope only being 15 and being the victim and having only a very small amount trace substance of the drug in her system that these things can help her with her penalties.

We may never know how this got into her system originally because of privacy laws.
So sad.

 

[Scott512]

Snipped for focus.

Ummm....a "trace amount" in your pee sample (not to mention one batch per test of many batches of pee you excrete in a day) generally means the little bit left over from the much bigger amount you put in your body.

Good point.

Does anyone know what the banishment from the Olympics and the competitions will do to her trainings? Will KV still be able to train and stay a world-class athlete at her facility with her coaches?

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Ангиозил ретард

Ангиозил ретард, таблетки пролонгированного действия, покрытые оболочкой, 35 мг. Показания, противопоказания, режим дозирования, побочное действие, передозировка, лекарственное взаимодействие ФармФирма Сотекс произведено REPLEK FARM Ltd. Skopje

www.vidal.ru

This is a Russian language description of a medicine which containes TMZ as the sole active ingredient (the copy of the paper-based document inserted into the package to inform patients about the usage of the medicine).
There is a clear sentence in it (just scroll down for it): "Противопоказано применение у детей и подростков в возрасте до 18 ле" that is "contraindicated for children and adolescents under 18"

Consequently 1) the statement that Russian doctors believe TMZ to be a placebo is rather hard to believe 2) giving it to children is basically child endangerment

what you quoted is basically the description of the drug that is given by its manufacturer. That is, it can be said to be something like the wishes of the author. But attending physicians rely mainly on experience of use, and not on what the manufacturer claims.

Here, however, there are disagreements between Russian and, for example, European doctors. In Europe, this drug is taken quite seriously, which apparently explains its sale by prescription (but, by the way, if someone has malicious intent, then the prescription is not an obstacle).

That's just the phrase about the use in children is better to quote in full: "The use of the drug in children and adolescents under the age of 18 years is contraindicated (efficacy and safety have not been established)." - that is, even the manufacturer himself does not know what effect the drug can have on people who are not yet 18 years old. That is, it may be a harmful drug, it may be a useless drug - no one knows.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I don't quite understand what you're saying. But it's a fact that elite athletes get tested frequently and they only rarely get caught. The reason they get caught is rarely stupidity. Elite athletes are generally not stupid about their bodies. Those who take drugs know how to evade test positives. Thus, the hundreds of clear tests Lance Armstrong survived. But he was a doper.

those found to have meldonium were mostly non-elite athletes. They cannot be placed next to Valieva. Therefore, it is quite possible to assume that the appearance of meldonium is a consequence of the lack of professionalism of the personnel who helped this conditionally "ordinary" athlete.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I don't quite understand what you're saying. But it's a fact that elite athletes get tested frequently and they only rarely get caught. The reason they get caught is rarely stupidity. Elite athletes are generally not stupid about their bodies. Those who take drugs know how to evade test positives. Thus, the hundreds of clear tests Lance Armstrong survived. But he was a doper.

By the way - Lance Armstrong took drugs that really helped him win. That is, from his point of view, he risked not in vain. Do you think he would risk taking a drug whose efficacy is at best unknown?

 

[readernick]

By the way - Lance Armstrong took drugs that really helped him win. That is, from his point of view, he risked not in vain. Do you think he would risk taking a drug whose efficacy is at best unknown?

Good you understand this. It's the same point everyone is making about Valieva testing positive for this drug. It was taken because the efficacy is believed to be high by those who gave it to her. In fact blood doping, which Armstrong ( and sadly) essentially all high-level cyclists of his era were involved in and TMZ are both taken for similar reasons to improve oxygen supply in the blood and increase cardiovascular function. I saw this quote about TMZ in an article today, "If you're in a highly exertional sport, where you're using a lot of energy and you're putting your heart under significant stress, it certainly could help your heart function better theoretically," said Dr. Kelly Johnson

 

[beachmouse]

Good point.

Does anyone know what the banishment from the Olympics and the competitions will do to her trainings? Will KV still be able to train and stay a world-class athlete at her facility with her coaches?

The rulings I have heard in swimming will say something like 'one year ban; athlete may resume training with coach and in team environment in the last three months of the ban' (not exact timeline but something like that in concept). Nothing to stop a skater from getting ice time at a shopping mall rink or such.

 

[el henry]

Forty pages later, I feel a burning need to repeat myself

If a drug is on the banned list:

1. It doesn't matter if it has absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

2. It doesn't matter if I can skip merrily out of a general store with 83 cases of whatever it is.

It's banned. I don't take it. And I don't argue it has no effect if I am found to have taken it, or that it can be plucked off the trees for free, because that is irrelevant to whether I violated the rules against taking it.

ETA: My arguments, if I do not believe it should be banned, should be made before I am found to have taken the substance, to remove whatever it is from the banned list. If they are made after, they have no weight.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Good you understand this. It's the same point everyone is making about Valieva testing positive for this drug. It was taken because the efficacy is believed to be high by those who gave it to her. In fact blood doping, which Armstrong ( and sadly) essentially all high-level cyclists of his era were involved in and TMZ are both taken for similar reasons to improve oxygen supply in the blood and increase cardiovascular function. I saw this quote about TMZ in an article today, "If you're in a highly exertional sport, where you're using a lot of energy and you're putting your heart under significant stress, it certainly could help your heart function better theoretically," said Dr. Kelly Johnson

Dr. Kelly Johnson spoke about the theoretical benefit. I repeat - theoretical. Moreover, the instructions for the drug say - "effectiveness has not been established" (for those who are under 18 years old). Lance Armstrong has been taking drugs for years that provide practical rather than theoretical benefits. Do you notice the difference here?