Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[doreen95]

what you quoted is basically the description of the drug that is given by its manufacturer. That is, it can be said to be something like the wishes of the author. But attending physicians rely mainly on experience of use, and not on what the manufacturer claims.

Here, however, there are disagreements between Russian and, for example, European doctors. In Europe, this drug is taken quite seriously, which apparently explains its sale by prescription (but, by the way, if someone has malicious intent, then the prescription is not an obstacle).

That's just the phrase about the use in children is better to quote in full: "The use of the drug in children and adolescents under the age of 18 years is contraindicated (efficacy and safety have not been established)." - that is, even the manufacturer himself does not know what effect the drug can have on people who are not yet 18 years old. That is, it may be a harmful drug, it may be a useless drug - no one knows.

No. What you claim to be there is simply not there.
I quote the description in full (and everyone can check it https://www.vidal.ru/drugs/angiozil_retard__13214#hepato ):
"С осторожностью следует применять у пациентов с почечной недостаточностью умеренной степени тяжести (КК 30-60 мл/мин).
Применение у детей
Противопоказано применение у детей и подростков в возрасте до 18 лет.
Применение у пожилых пациентов
С осторожностью следует применять у пациентов в возрасте старше 75 лет."
The previous sentence (ending with "30-60 мл/мин.") refers to patiens with kidney problems.
The next sentence after "18 лет" (starting with "Применение") refers to elderly people over 75.
No sentence like "efficacy and safety have not been established" is there. Not at all.

Plus there is an icon on the top of the description depiting a young girl with 2 ponytails. This icon is in red and crossed out - indicating even to those who cannot understand the text that this medicine is not intended for children.

Moreover, descipitions given by manufacturers are based on previous experiments with the drug, so warnings are there not for nothing.
It is a discription of a serious heart medicine (which has to meet certain rules), not poetry.

 

[moonkat]

Dr. Kelly Johnson spoke about the theoretical benefit. I repeat - theoretical. Moreover, the instructions for the drug say - "effectiveness has not been established" (for those who are under 18 years old). Lance Armstrong has been taking drugs for years that provide practical rather than theoretical benefits. Do you notice the difference here?

As if the coaches could reveal the results of the drug's improvement.
It doesn't matter. If it is banned, it is banned.

 

[readernick]

Dr. Kelly Johnson spoke about the theoretical benefit. I repeat - theoretical. Moreover, the instructions for the drug say - "effectiveness has not been established" (for those who are under 18 years old). Lance Armstrong has been taking drugs for years that provide practical rather than theoretical benefits. Do you notice the difference here?

In terms of a person's/ team's willingness to take a drug there is no difference. They only need to believe it will benefit them. They don't need conclusive proof. Establishing conclusive proof is in fact very difficult because running such studies would not be ethical.

 

[doreen95]

If a drug is on the banned list:

1. It doesn't matter if it has absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

2. It doesn't matter if I can skip merrily out of a general store with 83 cases of whatever it is.

It's banned. I don't take it. And I don't argue it has no effect if I am found to have taken it, or that it can be plucked off the trees for free, because that is irrelevant to whether I violated the rules against taking it.

Indeed. If, for some reason, pizza was on the banned list, eating it would be clear violation of the rules.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Forty pages later, I feel a burning need to repeat myself

If a drug is on the banned list:

1. It doesn't matter if it has absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

2. It doesn't matter if I can skip merrily out of a general store with 83 cases of whatever it is.

It's banned. I don't take it. And I don't argue it has no effect if I am found to have taken it, or that it can be plucked off the trees for free, because that is irrelevant to whether I violated the rules against taking it.

ETA: My arguments, if I do not believe it should be banned, should be made before I am found to have taken the substance, to remove whatever it is from the banned list. If they are made after, they have no weight.

It's not about that. I'm not saying anything about the fact that using illegal drugs is normal. I'm talking about the fact that there were actually no motives for their use. Therefore, the speculation about the system of hiding traces and that coaches imposed these drugs on all athletes does not look convincing.

 

[moonkat]

Top athletes wouldn't want to be volunteers in an report to show you the drugs benefits. If they use it, they would not tell. At the highest level every small advantage counts, whether it be faster recovery, endurance, or strength.

 

[vorravorra]

who are these "they"? Athletes, coaches, some doctors? Our main problem is that while people are talking about some kind of terrifying "government doping system", we actually have anarchy, not a system.

Most cases of detection of meldonium after so many years after its ban are due to the most common stupidity. There are, of course, separate mysterious cases, for example, the episode with Krushelnitsky, but basically this is the lack of professionalism of the staff, who have not got acquainted with what the athletes are given. If Eteri had something like that, everything would have been discovered long ago. I repeat - the development of sophisticated schemes for hiding traces is incompatible with ignorance of obvious things - and everything has long been known about meldonium and this TMZ.

I have doubts all the athletes on the list or their support staff were simply not aware, although there may be some clueless idiots like that soccer player or whoever gave him the drugs, or the Russian figure skater (who luckily for her never made it to any testing pool) who thought that meldonium and Mildronate were two completely different medications. There are no proper clinical trials on the effect of meldonium in athletes but if you go purely by personal accounts of regular people who have taken it it does something (I know this is not a reliable standard but there isn't one for this drug). With TMZ it's harder because regular people don't take it without actually having a heart condition. But as the clinical pharmacologist who gave an interview on this subject suggested, a creatively minded sports physician could have designed a regimen including it with an expectation of its effectiveness (and that was clearly not his first encounter with creatively minded sports physicians). That said, I am not claiming anything wrt Eteri's camp and the specific extent of use of TMZ or other banned substances, this needs to be investigated more closely.

 

[el henry]

It's not about that. I'm not saying anything about the fact that using illegal drugs is normal. I'm talking about the fact that there were actually no motives for their use. Therefore, the speculation about the system of hiding traces and that coaches imposed these drugs on all athletes does not look convincing.

I think I understand the difference, thank you for the explanation.

I am not taking a position on what did or did not happen, or who was involved, until more is known. But, sadly for me, I do "geek out" on legal procedure. And I am learning more about a drug I did not even know existed four days ago than I ever thought I would.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

No. What you claim to be there is simply not there.
.

I already wanted to reproach you for inattention, but then I realized that you were looking at a slightly different description. What you are referring to is the instructions for the medicine Angiozil Retard, which contain trimetadizine. But on the same site there is an instruction directly to trimetadizine:

Триметазидин

Триметазидин, таблетки, покрытые пленочной оболочкой, 20 мг. Показания, противопоказания, режим дозирования, побочное действие, передозировка, лекарственное взаимодействие КАНОНФАРМА ПРОДАКШН

www.vidal.ru

scrolling down a bit, you will definitely see this:

"Применение у детей

Применение препарата у детей и подростков в возрасте до 18 лет противопоказано (эффективность и безопасность не установлены)."

translate:

"Use in children

The use of the drug in children and adolescents under the age of 18 years is contraindicated (efficacy and safety have not been established)."

 

[Scott512]

The rulings I have heard in swimming will say something like 'one year ban; athlete may resume training with coach and in team environment in the last three months of the ban' (not exact timeline but something like that in concept). Nothing to stop a skater from getting ice time at a shopping mall rink or such.

What is your example of that banning for one year and not it's not working with the coach for most of that year for a senior athlete is athlete or a minor Ashley like KV? Remember the IOC is supposed to be more lenient on a minor athlete who tests positive.

 

[maofan]

Other than Adam Rippon, Katarina Witt, Romain H (P/C coach) ... who else from the figure skating community have spoken about the doping controversy?

https://twitter.com/mhjd_85/status/1492209735935922176?s=20&t=_ujktPiY2bDn3_jt62qm0g

 

[readernick]

https://twitter.com/mhjd_85/status/1492209735935922176?s=20&t=_ujktPiY2bDn3_jt62qm0g

Also, Ashley Wagner who was very compassionate about Valieva but harsh in her judgment about doping minors.

 

[Scott512]

Has the length of a suspension been discussed here for the underage athlete Valieva? By that I think we've all heard that the punishments are supposed to be significantly less for a minor age athlete than an adult athlete who tests positive for doping. Does the IOC have a rule book stating how underage athletes must be disciplined and how long they can be banned for?

Any news on the B sample?

Also when CAS puts the suspension back in effect on Monday can Russia appeal that right away enabling her to skate in the ladies competition?

 

[vorravorra]

Has the length of a suspension been discussed here for the underage athlete Valieva? By that I think we've all heard that the punishments are supposed to be significantly less for a minor age athlete than an adult athlete who tests positive for doping. Does the IOC have a rule book stating how underage athletes must be disciplined and how long they can be banned for?

Any news on the B sample?

Also when CAS puts the suspension back in effect on Monday can Russia appeal that right away enabling her to skate in the ladies competition?

If they have admitted to the substance being in the urine there is no point in opening the B sample.

 

[Scott512]

I appreciate Brennan is a ig star

And this is why in part I think Valieva should be allowed to skate. She is villainized by the media and public opinion. We have convicted her and the Russians before all the facts. But it seems really hard to believe that Valieva is responsible for the drug i her system. And moreover, regardless to treat another olympian with such disrespect. Even wording that her mother had done something wrong - which has yet to be proven at least on this doping allegation is irresponsible. Though much is made of Diana having poor skating skills and being Eteri's daugther she did not deserve to be treated like that. Can you imagine if Diana was suicidal. Freedom of speech and things done in the name of journalism may not mean much if we have a hurt or dead soul or body.

I agree with this whole post about her possibly skating and why and this outrageous journalism from this bully Brennan. I thought we were supposed to care about mental health of females? certainly from women in the media right? And Christine asks Diana about her doper mother.

 

[doreen95]

I already wanted to reproach you for inattention, but then I realized that you were looking at a slightly different description. What you are referring to is the instructions for the medicine Angiozil Retard, which contain trimetadizine. But on the same site there is an instruction directly to trimetadizine:

Триметазидин

Триметазидин, таблетки, покрытые пленочной оболочкой, 20 мг. Показания, противопоказания, режим дозирования, побочное действие, передозировка, лекарственное взаимодействие КАНОНФАРМА ПРОДАКШН

www.vidal.ru

scrolling down a bit, you will definitely see this:

"Применение у детей

Применение препарата у детей и подростков в возрасте до 18 лет противопоказано (эффективность и безопасность не установлены)."

translate:

"Use in children

The use of the drug in children and adolescents under the age of 18 years is contraindicated (efficacy and safety have not been established)."

Yes, it was referring to the medicine Angiozil Retard (which has TMZ as the sole active ingredient).

And yes, in the description of trimetadizine there is the clause in brackets you mentioned, you are right.
(though the red icon is still there)

 

[msteach3]

Reading through all these many pages of posts is time consuming and I'm not quite sure why I'm doing it. I guess I'm trying to wrap my brain around how this could happen to a 15 year old girl who was on the verge of the most significant moment in her young life, as well as a significant moment in the sport I love. I truly believe she is an innocent victim here, not of the testing agencies or the IOC or American journalists, but of her coaches, her federation and her country who seems to believe rules don't apply and can be in some way circumvented. Debating the merits of the medication is pointless. It was on the banned substance list. Period.

 

[beachmouse]

What is your example of that banning for one year and not it's not working with the coach for most of that year for a senior athlete is athlete or a minor Ashley like KV? Remember the IOC is supposed to be more lenient on a minor athlete who tests positive.

Sun Yang case (sigh) again, where he was photographed training in a 'state-run facility' last year that may have violated the terms of his suspension. Found an article that talks a little about the usual process for an adult athlete under suspension-

Sun Yang's training on his own in an open-to-public facility likely legit, says lawyer

A sports lawyer's analysis on The Times of London exclusive

pekingnology.substack.com

which contains the relevant part of the WADA code, found here-

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2021_wada_code.pdf

(side note, the WADA code book will make you drowsy if you try to read it before bedtime and is probably great for insomniacs)

10.14 Status during Ineligibility or Provisional Suspension

10.14.1 Prohibition against Participation during Ineligibility or Provisional Suspension No Athlete or other Person who has been declared Ineligible or is subject to a Provisional Suspension may, during a period of Ineligibility or Provisional Suspension, participate in any capacity in a Competition or activity (other than authorized anti-doping Education or rehabilitation programs) authorized or organized by any Signatory, Signatory’s member organization, or a club or other member organization of a Signatory’s member organization, or in Competitions authorized or organized by any professional league or any international- or national-level Event organization or any elite or national-level sporting activity funded by a governmental agency.77 An Athlete or other Person subject to a period of Ineligibility longer than four (4) years may

after completing four (4) years of the period of Ineligibility, participate as an Athlete in local sport events not sanctioned or otherwise under the authority of a Code Signatory or member of a Code Signatory, but only so long as the local sport event is not at a level that could otherwise qualify such Athlete or other Person directly or indirectly to compete in (or accumulate points toward) a national championship or International Event, and does not involve the Athlete or other Person working in any capacity with Protected Persons. An Athlete or other Person subject to a period of Ineligibility shall remain subject to Testing and any requirement by an Anti-Doping Organization to provide whereabouts information.

10.14.2 Return to Training As an exception to Article 10.14.1, an Athlete may return to train with a team or to use the facilities of a club or other member organization of a Signatory’s member organization during the shorter of: (1) the last two (2) months of the Athlete’s period of Ineligibility, or (2) the last onequarter of the period of Ineligibility imposed.78

 

[zanadude]

There is a benefit. That's why TMZ is banned.

Not everything that is beneficial is banned. For example, nobody has ever been convicted of taking melatonin.

 

[plushyfan]

Probably my last message here: I really want to see Kamila in the competition at OG and after for years!!!! The other things are the judges' business on the court.

I want to hug her!!

https://twitter.com/MagiaGelada/status/1492587812318851074