Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[el henry]

I did not mean to "like" this post but cannot delete it.

If you go the post and hit "Like" again, it should delete the "Like".

 

[Draculus]

Are you for real? she's an Eteri student,
and she's not ordinary.

She is not. Her grandparents are.

 

[Novalis]

From a much longer article, not concentrating on Alysa or her father, just quoting them:

“If that's their choice, I guess that's the right one,” 16-year-old Alysa Liu, who will perform just before Valieva on Tuesday night and is the best hope for an American medal in the women's competition, said upon learning of the CAS decision.

Her father, Arthur Liu, was not as diplomatic.
“She tested positive for a banned drug. What's not clear about it?” he said to The Associated Press. "She should be out. That is as simple as that. What kind of message are they sending to millions of young boys and girls in sports — particularly figure skaters? That cheaters are allowed to compete in the Olympics, the holiest competition on the planet.
“It totally destroys the Olympic spirit.”

i

He didn't stop there:

Arthur Liu took particular aim at Tutberidze, who has earned a reputation for pushing skaters to the extreme, then discarding them when they are no longer of use to her. Several of her athletes, including 2014 Olympic gold medalist Yulia Lipnitskaya, have been forced to retire before the age of 20 because of injuries their young, developing bodies incurred in training.

“They are the ones who are most at fault,” Arthur Liu said. “I’m not trying to blame it all on Valieva. Her coaches, doctors, whoever gave her the drugs need to be prosecuted — criminally prosecuted, to be honest. They should be banned forever.”

 

[silveruskate]

It is completely common sense. There is NO right to an entire hearing before a suspension. It might but easier, but simply not true and actually boring to keep repeating that an athlete is somehow entitled to a full blown hearing, either legally or "morally".

Unless of course the concerns of the athletes competing with one who has ingested banned substances do not factor into the moral or legal equation.

They factor into mine.

Actually Jessica could definitely have applied for a provisional suspension being lifted due to contaminated product. The only sad situation I would say is not having access to great lawyers which indeed is unfair. Even Djokovic got out of the first situation he was in which I thought was impossible but it happened. We often have police having to throw out evidence because of mishandling too. WADA fell from their own standards of lab testing and ambiguity in the documents and they were punished.

In my opinion people are too upset to see this yet.

 

[matin calin]

it's more likely this substance was administered on an ad hoc basis

My question still stands, why would they do it, if the medication is more or less useless with an ad hoc administration? The risks outweigh benefits by a mile. If TeamTut were so reckless, Shvetsky so incompetent etc - surely they would have get caught earlier?

 

[Ducky]

I know someone else commented on half-lives on this same page, but it seems that some of you don't understand what they are...

It's not that half the substance is gone after one half-life and then the other half is gone after another half-life as you are implying here with 10 hours. One half-life is the time it takes for the concentration of the substance (TMZ) to decrease in the body by half. This is an exponential equation here, its not so simple as divide by 2. So after 5 hours in this case, half of the starting concentration of TMZ would remain, then in the next five hours (the second half-life), the existing concentration is once again reduced in half. Many more half-lives will continue to take place with the whatever the current concentration in the body continuously reducing by half every 5 hours. We don't know her starting concentration of TMZ, therefore we cannot say how many half-lives occurred to bring it to the concentration detected in the test, and we also cannot say when she took it based off of the information we have.

Well, we can hazard a guess based on knowing the usual testing thresholds and the half-life equation and whatever time line they were giving us.

 

[cisum88note]

Historical question: have there been other minors prosecuted for doping violations, and what exactly were their sentences, if there were any?

Yes, Yelim Kim, 13 year old figure skater. Missed a drug test because she didn't know she had to take one. Returned immediately to take the test. There was no positive test even involved but she was still officially reprimanded. I guess being a "protected person" didn't apply then.

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/legal/disciplinary-decisions/538-case-2016-03-ms-yelim-kim/file


The Alleged Offender being a minor of the age of 13, the Panel, with no representation from the Alleged Offender, voluntarily exanimated whether Anti-Doping Rules are applicable to minors in general and to this case in particular. The Panel observes that the rules contained in the ISU Anti-Doping Rules do not specifically deal with the issue of age.


The Panel is nevertheless of the view that, in order for an athlete to be bound to anti-doping rules, the issue of age is in principle of no relevance. Accordingly, the fact that the Alleged Offender was very young at the time of the anti-doping control (13 years old) is in this respect irrelevant. If a young athlete enrolls to compete in organized sport she must do it in accordance with the rules of the game, including the rules whose violation entails disciplinary consequences. This is especially appropriate in figure skating, where athletes tend to emerge onto the international scene at ever younger ages. After all, subjection to rules and to sanctions is not unknown to minors. For instance, when minors are in school, they must comply with school rules and be prepared to undergo disciplinary consequences – even harsh ones, such as the expulsion from the school or the repetition of the same school year – if they don’t. If a young athlete is deemed by his parents mature enough to participate in an international event, she must be deemed mature enough to understand the applicable anti-doping rules. In addition, the Panel remarks that anti-doping rules are aimed at protecting the vested interest of all participants in a fair competition. The principle of a level playing field is a cornerstone of sports law in general and of anti-doping law in particular. This principle notably aims at protecting the Athletes’ fundamental right to participate in doping-free sport and thus promote health, fairness and equality for Athletes. In order to protect this fundamental right, it is indispensable that all athletes be subjected to the same rules, particularly those aiming at protecting equality of arms and, thus, at avoiding that some competitors may benefit from an unfair advantage over other competitors. The qualification of an athlete as a minor is, therefore, not a circumstance that could exempt him from being submitted to the anti-doping regulations in the same way as all the other participants to the competitions. A different approach would lead to intolerable consequences. One of the consequences would be that while some of the participants in a competition (i.e. those who have attained the majority) would be subjected to a certain set of rules, minors would have to obey to less stringent rules or to no rules at all. This would result, in particular, in young athletes being allowed to use doping substances and doping methods, as they could rely on a substantial immunity from the imposition of sanctions. This is incompatible with the idea of a level playing field and would be contrary to the protection of the health of minors, as the awareness of impunity would have the inevitable consequence of encouraging the use of doping. All of this cannot be accepted. Therefore, the Alleged Offender is responsible for a violation of the ISU Anti-Doping Rules.

 

[el henry]

Actually Jessica could definitely have applied for a provisional suspension being lifted due to contaminated product. The only sad situation I would say is not having access to great lawyers which indeed is unfair. Even Djokovic got out of the first situation he was in which I thought was impossible but it happened. We often have police having to throw out evidence because of mishandling too. WADA fell from their own standards of lab testing and ambiguity in the documents and they were punished.

In my opinion people are too upset to see this yet.

I'm not "upset". I think telling me Kamila is accidentally drinking a glass of water with a pill dissolved inside of it beggars belief, (now that would be an interesting cross examination) and I think the panel felt sorry for Kamila and "backed into" the decision they wanted. I feel sorry for the athletes who did not test positive.

I am always for great lawyers. But there are two sides that are at risk of suffering damages here, not just one.

 

[invisiblespiral]

Yes, Yelim Kim, 13 year old figure skater. Missed a drug test because she didn't know she had to take one. Returned immediately to take the test. There was no positive test even involved but she was still officially reprimanded. I guess being a "protected person" didn't apply then.

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/legal/disciplinary-decisions/538-case-2016-03-ms-yelim-kim/file


The Alleged Offender being a minor of the age of 13, the Panel, with no representation from the Alleged Offender, voluntarily exanimated whether Anti-Doping Rules are applicable to minors in general and to this case in particular. The Panel observes that the rules contained in the ISU Anti-Doping Rules do not specifically deal with the issue of age.


The Panel is nevertheless of the view that, in order for an athlete to be bound to anti-doping rules, the issue of age is in principle of no relevance. Accordingly, the fact that the Alleged Offender was very young at the time of the anti-doping control (13 years old) is in this respect irrelevant. If a young athlete enrolls to compete in organized sport she must do it in accordance with the rules of the game, including the rules whose violation entails disciplinary consequences. This is especially appropriate in figure skating, where athletes tend to emerge onto the international scene at ever younger ages. After all, subjection to rules and to sanctions is not unknown to minors. For instance, when minors are in school, they must comply with school rules and be prepared to undergo disciplinary consequences – even harsh ones, such as the expulsion from the school or the repetition of the same school year – if they don’t. If a young athlete is deemed by his parents mature enough to participate in an international event, she must be deemed mature enough to understand the applicable anti-doping rules. In addition, the Panel remarks that anti-doping rules are aimed at protecting the vested interest of all participants in a fair competition. The principle of a level playing field is a cornerstone of sports law in general and of anti-doping law in particular. This principle notably aims at protecting the Athletes’ fundamental right to participate in doping-free sport and thus promote health, fairness and equality for Athletes. In order to protect this fundamental right, it is indispensable that all athletes be subjected to the same rules, particularly those aiming at protecting equality of arms and, thus, at avoiding that some competitors may benefit from an unfair advantage over other competitors. The qualification of an athlete as a minor is, therefore, not a circumstance that could exempt him from being submitted to the anti-doping regulations in the same way as all the other participants to the competitions. A different approach would lead to intolerable consequences. One of the consequences would be that while some of the participants in a competition (i.e. those who have attained the majority) would be subjected to a certain set of rules, minors would have to obey to less stringent rules or to no rules at all. This would result, in particular, in young athletes being allowed to use doping substances and doping methods, as they could rely on a substantial immunity from the imposition of sanctions. This is incompatible with the idea of a level playing field and would be contrary to the protection of the health of minors, as the awareness of impunity would have the inevitable consequence of encouraging the use of doping. All of this cannot be accepted. Therefore, the Alleged Offender is responsible for a violation of the ISU Anti-Doping Rules.

Does official reprimand imply a ban? (sorry, not familiar with this terminology)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yes, Yelim Kim, 13 year old figure skater. Missed a drug test because she didn't know she had to take one. Returned immediately to take the test. There was no positive test even involved but she was still officially reprimanded. I guess being a "protected person" didn't apply then.

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/legal/disciplinary-decisions/538-case-2016-03-ms-yelim-kim/file

She was reprimanded, she was not suspended from competing or nobody was going to take her medal, so there was no reason from her side to do anything against it. Again, common logic. And 'protected person' actually exists in the whole verdict about her.

 

[anonymoose_au]

What is everyone's feelings about Kamila deciding, on her own will, to pull out of the competition

I truly wish she would.

This is where her youth really shows, she can't see ahead years or even months from now. What will she feel when her medals are (in all likelihood) taken away? What will she feel a decade from now when it's the 10th anniversary of this mess and her name is brought up? What will she feel tomorrow when skaters who were friendly with her avoid her or can't think of anything to say because of the elephant in the room?

If her team truly had her best interests at heart, if they truly believed in her talent and ability like they should they would advise her to look towards 2026, I see no reason she couldn't make it there, her skating can only get better with maturity.

Instead they're throwing the rest of her life under the bus for their own selfish reasons.

 

[cisum88note]

And this is the same person writing...

Yes, I didn't actually revert to scientific academic writing on a figure skating commenting forum but used general tolerance levels because an ADE would be unlikely for a medication used at PDE levels immediately before major competition. We also don't know the exact pH of her metabolic system to calculate exact metabolic rates. And provided clarifying remarks on the half life question. But congrats, I guess, for connecting two non mutually exclusive statements.

 

[skatefan17]

I truly wish she would.

This is where her youth really shows, she can't see ahead years or even months from now. What will she feel when her medals are (in all likelihood) taken away? What will she feel a decade from now when it's the 10th anniversary of this mess and her name is brought up? What will she feel tomorrow when skaters who were friendly with her avoid her or can't think of anything to say because of the elephant in the room?

If her team truly had her best interests at heart, if they truly believed in her talent and ability like they should they would advise her to look towards 2026, I see no reason she couldn't make it there, her skating can only get better with maturity.

Instead they're throwing the rest of her life under the bus for their own selfish reasons.

You are spot-on with this assessment. I wish she had the foresight (almost impossible for a 15 yo) to see how damaging this will be for her regardless if she wins.

 

[yelyoh]

If you go the post and hit "Like" again, it should delete the "Like".

Thanks. Done.

 

[cisum88note]

She was reprimanded, she was not suspended from competing or nobody was going to take her medal, so there was no reason from her side to do anything against it. Again, common logic. And 'protected person' actually exist in the whole verdict about her.

I specifically said she was reprimanded, not suspended.

"protected person" is discussed and dismissed because

"The Panel is nevertheless of the view that, in order for an athlete to be bound to anti-doping rules, the issue of age is in principle of no relevance."

 

[Piett]

The grandfather story would be the worst excuse since Dieter Baumann's "toothpaste conspiracy". I would expect something much more refined that doesn' t sound so much like openly laughing into everybody's faces.

 

[flotsam]

The grandfather story would be the worst excuse since Dieter Baumann's "toothpaste conspiracy". I would expect something much more refined that doesn' t sound so much like openly laughing into everybody's faces.

Interestingly, according to an article linked earlier (https://dossier-center.appspot.com/kamila/), the head of the Results Management Department at RUSADA, Valeriya German, also found the grandfather's-glass excuse unconvincing and tried to keep the suspension in place. They ruled against her.

 

[McBibus]

From a much longer article, not concentrating on Alysa or her father, just quoting them:

“If that's their choice, I guess that's the right one,” 16-year-old Alysa Liu, who will perform just before Valieva on Tuesday night and is the best hope for an American medal in the women's competition, said upon learning of the CAS decision.

Her father, Arthur Liu, was not as diplomatic.
“She tested positive for a banned drug. What's not clear about it?” he said to The Associated Press. "She should be out. That is as simple as that. What kind of message are they sending to millions of young boys and girls in sports — particularly figure skaters? That cheaters are allowed to compete in the Olympics, the holiest competition on the planet.
“It totally destroys the Olympic spirit.”

i

I understand going to Alisa but who cares about her father honestly.
If she was my daughter I would be as much biased as possible (in good faith too).
It's good and right he takea his daughter's part but is totally not relevant to the discussion.
This is poor journalism.

oh... kudos to ALisa for concentrating on herself

 

[Ktriplelutz]

I think it's ridiculous to let a skater compete at the Olympic games if they're not going to be held responsible for controlling what their body intakes. Figure skaters are constantly tested, so she definitely has awareness to think about what she's taking/being given, and if she isn't mature enough to do this, why is she at the Olympic games? Her year-older competitors would likely have been banned for a situation like this, but the CAS sights her mental wellbeing and protected person status for allowing her to compete. This destroys the even playing field for all other skaters, which is something they have a right to. Also, I've seen some reference to Kamila's mother, her lawyer, and herself claiming that she ingested the drug (Trimetazidine) through a cup of water that she shared with her elderly grandfather, which is scientifically impossible. I think that the decisions of the IOC/ISU/WADA/CAS/RUSADA will scar the sport forever, and send a message to other young Russian athletes that this is perfectly okay and they will get out of it clean (no pun intended). Hopefully some rule change will come out of this and we can have a scandal-free 2026 games. And they need to hold some deep investigations, or not much will change!!!

 

[KaliM]

I truly wish she would.

This is where her youth really shows, she can't see ahead years or even months from now. What will she feel when her medals are (in all likelihood) taken away? What will she feel a decade from now when it's the 10th anniversary of this mess and her name is brought up? What will she feel tomorrow when skaters who were friendly with her avoid her or can't think of anything to say because of the elephant in the room?

If her team truly had her best interests at heart, if they truly believed in her talent and ability like they should they would advise her to look towards 2026, I see no reason she couldn't make it there, her skating can only get better with maturity.

Instead they're throwing the rest of her life under the bus for their own selfish reasons.

Not if Eteri's other skaters are any indicator...

[Most likely she'll also retire by 17 (i sincerely hope NOT), either of injury or for the next 14-15 year old prodigy. It's not visible now, but there are already strong indicators that quads and Sambo training are unforgiving to a growing body. There were reports of Evgenia's spine growing wrong if I'm not mistaken.

But if she gets ahead of this early and adjust, Kamila can skate well into her twenties She's too good not to