2021-22 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating | Page 39 | Golden Skate

2021-22 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating

A couple of thoughts...

I was thinking that same thing as BlissfulSynergy, that Alexa/Brandon's World gold doesn't necessarily make them them the GOAT of US pairs, but rather puts them in really good company with some other some great US pairs such as Jenni/Todd who had several worlds medals even if not gold. But while I could have named some of them, I didn't have all the details, so thanks Bliss for that great analysis.

And... 3 spots next year ??? !!! I hadn't thought about it too much, couldn't really think too much with the combination of emotions, delighted for Alexa/Brandon, devastated for Ash/Tim especially Ash... But was vaguely thinking of it being just 1 spot... But as I think about it, even if Ash/Tim hadn't made it to the free or finished last in the event (neither of which is the case of course) with Alexa/Brandon's 1st that still would have at least been 2 spots not just 1... So how did we get to 3 spots? Is it that since Ash/Tim were officially a WD rather than a low placement, it is basically like Alexa/Brandon were the only entry, and therefore able to get 3 spots by finishing in top 2 ? Is that right???
 
BlissfulSynergy said:
Maybe that is not the case, but perhaps they had no plans to continue after this season?
Click to expand...

Timothy said in interviews before Worlds that they and Ashley had decided not to decide anything about continuing to compete in upcoming seasons, until after Worlds and for a few weeks. I imagine that may still the plan ... to allow their emotions to settle, to gain equilibrium about what all they've accomplished and been challenged by. They're wise people.
 
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skylark said:
Timothy said in interviews before Worlds that he and Ashley had decided not to decide anything about continuing to compete in upcoming seasons, until after Worlds and for a few weeks. I imagine that may still the plan ... to allow their emotions to settle, to gain equilibrium about what all they've accomplished and been challenged by. They're wise people.
Click to expand...
I'm glad to hear this news. :)

Please note that Timothy's pronouns are they/them.
 
corinthia said:
And... 3 spots next year ??? !!! I hadn't thought about it too much, couldn't really think too much with the combination of emotions, delighted for Alexa/Brandon, devastated for Ash/Tim especially Ash... But was vaguely thinking of it being just 1 spot... But as I think about it, even if Ash/Tim hadn't made it to the free or finished last in the event (neither of which is the case of course) with Alexa/Brandon's 1st that still would have at least been 2 spots not just 1... So how did we get to 3 spots? Is it that since Ash/Tim were officially a WD rather than a low placement, it is basically like Alexa/Brandon were the only entry, and therefore able to get 3 spots by finishing in top 2 ? Is that right???
Click to expand...
Yes. I was confused too. Ash and Tim are a WD. If a pair is the sole entry and finishes 1st or 2nd that country gets 3 spots the next year (Japan is also getting 3 spots).
 
BlissfulSynergy said:
Sadly, it sounded to me like Ashley, in her update, was placing her and Timothy's career in a 'past' context, which is likely another reason why she is so broken up over what happened. Maybe that is not the case, but perhaps they had no plans to continue after this season? Now, with the concussion she suffered, that might be what adds to their decision. I hope otherwise, but I'm not feeling very optimistic that they plan to return.

I do hope that Alexa/Brandon will stay on for at least another year, because they may be able to bag medals and monetary rewards on the GP in the fall. Of course, I will respect whatever choice they end up making.
Click to expand...
I thought she was saying the season was past. But she’s concussed. I would not rely too much on what she said.
 
Moxiejan said:
As far as i know, because Ash/Tim were Top 10 after the short & her WD was due to injury, the placement of Alexa/Brandon earned 3 spots.
Click to expand...
In a different thread, it has been explained that the official rules state: If one entry from a country in a particular discipline places first or second overall, then 3 spots in that discipline are gained for the athletes' country.

Due to the WD, nothing Ash/Timothy did in the sp counts toward the number of entries earned in the coming season. It is treated as if the U.S. only had one entry. Fortunately, K/F placed first. Had Ash/Timothy WD and K/F placed third, only two spots would have been allowed.

Miura/Kihara placing second as a single entry (when they should have placed third or lower), means that Japan has three spots for pairs. I doubt Japan fed will adequately be able to field a third pair, but we'll see. Certainly, every effort will be made to ensure Japan can get at least a second pair team ready to obtain the necessary minimums to compete at Worlds. It is definitely a huge opportunity for Japan to build their pairs discipline (crucial for them continuing to be competitive for Olympic team medals going forward).

corinthia said:
it is basically like Alexa/Brandon were the only entry, and therefore able to get 3 spots by finishing in top 2 ? Is that right???
Click to expand...

^^ Yes, exactly. As someone indicated in a separate thread, citing the official rules.
 
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BlissfulSynergy said:
Well, K/F join an exclusive club, as Tai mentioned when she tweeted K/F her congratulations! Tai & Randy obviously were in the hunt for Olympic gold, which may have ended up Olympic silver, if not for Randy's leg or groin injury. So, I think of Tai/Randy as being at the top of the ladder, because in their era, under John Nicks' tutelage, they were also innovators. Tai gave a shout out to John Nicks too; he coached Meno/Sand, among many other champion skaters. So, clearly an important legacy has been and is being passed down.

In addition, the first U.S. and North American pair team to ever medal at a World championship are Karol & Peter Kennedy.* They accomplished this record first in 1950, post WW-II. While Europe was rebuilding, the U.S. began to dominate in figure skating disciplines throughout the 1950s, especially in singles.

*In 1952, Karol & Peter Kennedy won Olympic silver. So the Kennedys were the pioneering originals, as the first U.S. pairs team to win World gold and Olympic silver, in a very different era. The Kennedys also won four World silver medals, beginning in 1947! IMO, that would place Alexa/Brandon third on this exclusive list because their anticipated Olympic silver was achieved in the team event, taking nothing away from how well they performed as part of a team. IMO, Tai/Randy are first on the list due to their longevity, their major contributions, and their hardware: two-time U.S. silver medalists; five-time U.S. National champions; two-time World bronze medalists; 1979 World champions; favored to win silver or gold at the 1980 Winter Olympics prior to Randy's unfortunate injury. In 1976, they also placed 5th at both Olympics and Worlds. Early in their career, Tai/ Randy won medals at Nebelhorn Trophy and at Coup des Alpes. However, those were not the kind of events we see today. We should also keep in mind, there was no GP/GPF; no senior Bs, no Challenge Cups. There were very few competitions held annually. Had the international competitive framework existed then that we have today, Tai/ Randy would surely have won a ton of other medals.

Not to forget other great U.S. pairs champions, I think JoJo Starbuck/ Ken Shelley should be on this list. In addition to being mentors to Tai & Randy, JoJo/Ken are two-time World bronze medalists; three-time U.S. National pairs champions, and they won bronze and silver at U.S. Nationals; in 1969 and 1971, they won silver and gold respectively at the former North American championships (4CCs was later created as perhaps a replacement for this event); plus JoJo/Ken were U.S. National junior pairs champions in 1967, and they placed 4th at the 1972 Olympics -- nothing to sneeze at, especially during a time when the Russians were dominating. Keep in mind too, that the Knierims won a slew of medals during their partnership, and Haven/Brandon also won numerous medals nationally and internationally, including their 2013 junior World championship. The Carruthers are another decorated U.S. pairs team, and there are other U.S. teams who won major medals.

There's no way we can leave out Jenni Meno/Todd Sand, who were great champions in their era. They won numerous international medals, including World silver in 1998, and World bronze back-to-back in 1995-96. That's just the tip of the iceberg, as Meno/Sand won bronze, silver and gold medals at Champions Series events, the precursor to Grand Prix Series (including Skate America, NHK Trophy, et al); they are two-time U.S. silver medalists; and three-time U.S. National champions; combined with placing 5th at the 1994 Olympics, and 8th at the 1998 Olympics. Toward the mid-to-latter years of their career, Jenni/Todd had a fierce domestic rivalry with Ina/Dungjen (Ina later partnered with John Zimmerman, and they were the last U.S. pairs team to medal at Worlds, in 2002).

It is very possible that Jenni/Todd are the most decorated U.S. pairs team in history, because they won numerous medals together and with other partners (especially Todd -- who had great success with Natasha Kuchiki, nationally and internationally: 6th at the Olympics in 1992, and World bronze medalists in 1991). As I mentioned in the 'partnerships split thread,' while checking these stats, I discovered that Todd Sand started his career in men's singles representing Denmark! (Todd's father is Danish). Todd is a two-time national men's champion of Denmark. He also competed for Denmark at Europeans, twice! I also remember that Todd & Jenni (in the mid-1990s) appeared on a cover of Dance Magazine -- they were celebrated as 'dance artists on ice'! As Alexa, and many of their other students have said, Todd & Jenni are great coaches as well as very kind people, who truly care about the lives of the young people they train.

Being married, and knowing what it is like to be partnered with each other while dating and being married, made Jenni/Todd perfect as coaches of the Knierims. Since Jenni/Todd know what it is like to skate with different partners, that also made them ideal to guide Chris, Alexa & Brandon through the process of splitting and coming together on ice to form a new partnership. Chris seems very happy now too in his role as a coach at the Irvine rink!
Click to expand...
I did correct myself in one of these threads that the Kennedys were actually more decorated. I expect there are few people alive today who ever saw them skate. That does not diminish their accomplishments, but no young skaters today are going to say “wow that looks like a cool discipline let me try it” as a result of the Kennedys accomplishments.

Tai and Randy will probably always be my favorite US pairs team. It doesn’t hurt that Tai responds to my tweets❤️😂. And they stayed together for something like 40 years! Incredible!
 
I’m now going to haunt this thread daily for some news of Danny. I’m guessing all try outs do not work out?


It doesn’t help that he never posts to his IG. Once a month if I’m lucky.
 
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moonvine said:
no young skaters today are going to say “wow that looks like a cool discipline let me try it” as a result of the Kennedys accomplishments.
Click to expand...
LOL! Of course not. But that isn't really the point. For me, the point of doing the research is to understand the broad spectrum of our amazing U.S. pairs legacy. It is appalling to see the casual mistakes and guessing that happened in Montpelier when Knierim/Frazier won. It demonstrates and solidifies the fact that the sport of figure skating is only grounded in what happens every five minutes, or just over the past five to ten years, if that much. Or, knowledge is limited to the little that's available on YouTube which allows fans to gain only a modicum of understanding of the sport's important history.

As with many things in our culture today, figure skating history is thrown out and forgotten with everyday trash. It was entirely possible for someone on the Montpelier organizing committee to contact the U.S. figure Skating Hall of Fame, or simply check Wikipedia stats like I do, instead of randomly guessing based on bits and pieces of erroneous recall. The information is right there. They definitely had access to talk with someone in the know. As well, authorities in-the-know could have informed them in advance. Even NBC researchers should have been on-the-ball with obtaining historical stats and data, especially after K/F were first in the sp. There's no excuse whatsoever.

More importantly, Tai & Randy are still alive!!! SMH!!! So is John Nicks for that matter! :bang: Also, for everyone's information, John Nicks competed against Karol & Peter Kennedy. When the Kennedys won gold at the 1950 World championships, John Nicks won silver for Great Britain, with his sister, Jennifer.

Karol Kennedy Kucher died at the age of 72, in 2004, at a Seattle, Washington hospital.
www.nytimes.com

Karol Kennedy Kucher, U.S. Skating Champion, Dies at 72 (Published 2004)

Karol Kennedy Kucher, who teamed up with her brother Peter Kennedy to win gold medal in pairs at 1950 world figure-skating championships and silver medal at 1952 Winter Olympics, dies at age 72; photo (M)
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

According to Wikipedia, Peter Kennedy is still alive! He was born in 1927, so he's 94. But I bet not many people in U.S. figure skating know this, much less care. Sad. As far as I'm concerned, it would be wonderful if a special tribute and gathering was put together this summer to honor some of the greats of U.S. pairs figure skating, and have them meet Knierim/Frazier and current top teams. A gathering could be held at the Irvine rink. If some people can't travel, arrange for them to be there via Zoom.

An in-person photo-op with Peter Kennedy, John Nicks, Jenni & Todd, Knierim/Frazier, Chris Knierim, Ash/Timothy, Tai & Randy, JoJo & Ken, The Carruthers, Calalang/Johnson, Yamaguchi & Galindo, and others perhaps, such as Rockne Brubaker & Keauna McLaughlin, Caydee & Haven Denney, Jeremy Barrett, et al, would be great! It might be difficult to arrange, but an important piece of U.S. figure skating history will be lost when Peter Kennedy passes. At age 94, he may or may not be in good health. I didn't even realize he was still alive. I had no idea when his sister Karol died, until I checked.

Peter Kennedy (figure skater) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Wow, I found an article dated Feb 5, 2022, in The Wenatchee World, where Peter Kennedy is interviewed, and is shown holding an old skating photo of him and his sister, Karol. Peter tells the reporter that he will watch the Beijing Olympics pairs final with a great deal of interest. He also indicates that he feels he and his sister, Karol, should have won gold at the 1952 Olympics, except for skating early, and except for political scoring. LOL! Some things never change.

I hope someone makes a small or large gathering possible, so these important pairs generations can meet before Peter Kennedy passes away. I bet if someone further looks into this and puts together a gathering in honor of Karol & Peter, and other greats of U.S. pairs figure skating, it will provide inspiration. Publicizing the fact that at least Peter is still alive, will be informative and enlightening for current pairs skaters and for younger skaters, who may be motivated to pursue pairs skating for the U.S. ❤️

Peter Kennedy's remembrances should also be captured on audio/ video and preserved at the U.S. Figure Skating Museum & Hall of Fame.
 
Last edited:
BlissfulSynergy said:
In a different thread, it has been explained that the official rules state: If one entry from a country in a particular discipline places first or second overall, then 3 spots in that discipline are gained for the athletes' country.

Due to the WD, nothing Ash/Timothy did in the sp counts toward the number of entries earned in the coming season. It is treated as if the U.S. only had one entry. Fortunately, K/F placed first. Had Ash/Timothy WD and K/F placed third, only two spots would have been allowed.
Click to expand...
This is not correct. Rule 378 (2.b) says this about a WD during competition:

“However the Competitors who withdrew because of:
- illness or injury, (provided this illness or injury is certified by the ISU Medical Advisor) or
- unexpected damage to the equipment during the warm up or the performance (provided this damage of the equipment is certified by the Referee), are not considered as entered for the purpose of this Rule if they did not start or finish the Free Skating/Free Dance, but were among the top ten in the Short Program/Rhythm Dance.”

Thus, if Ash/Tim had been lower than 10th in the short, they would have been given the points for their actual post-WD placement: 13. A 1st by Alexa/Brandon would have resulted in 2 spots: 1 + 13 = 14.
 
^^ Thanks for the further clarification @Moxiejan, but all I said was that after Ash/Timothy WD, what they did in the sp didn't count, because they weren't considered as entered 'for the purposes of the rule.' And that's true, because they placed second in the sp. There was no way Ash/Timothy were gonna place 10th in this field.

But it is good to know the actual crazy convoluted wording/ application of that confusing rule.
 
BlissfulSynergy said:
^^ Thanks for the further clarification @Moxiejan, but all I said was that after Ash/Timothy WD, what they did in the sp didn't count, because they weren't considered as entered 'for the purposes of the rule.' And that's true, because they placed second in the sp. There was no way Ash/Timothy were gonna place 10th in this field.

But it is good to know the actual crazy convoluted wording/ application of that confusing rule.
Click to expand...
Their placement did indeed matter, because the rule required a top 10 in the short. Had Ashley had a similar medical issue in the short & been forced to WD, it would have caused a lower place than 10th & resulted in 2 spots instead of 3.
 
moonvine said:
I’m now going to haunt this thread daily for some news of Danny. I’m guessing all try outs do not work out?


It doesn’t help that he never posts to his IG. Once a month if I’m lucky.
Click to expand...
So what happened to Dany and Chelsea? I know she had a concussion a few months ago but i would think she would be recovered enough by fall to compete.
 
dorispulaski said:
Sometimes, people never quite recover from a concussion.

www.espn.com

Skater Farris, 21, retires because of concussion

Joshua Farris, the 2015 U.S. bronze medalist who has been sidelined while recovering from a concussion, has retired.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Click to expand...
Yes. Sometimes people think a concussion is a "bump to the head" that causes no real long term damage. And sometimes, that's all it is, if it's mild.

But often, the consequences are long term, and the multiple concussions carry much greater risk.

In my mind, it's similar to the time I got heat stroke almost 30 years ago. Even today, I have to REALLY watch myself when I'm working outside in the summer or during exercise. I had another incident years after the first one, and I think it was worse than the first time.

The point of that side story is: Prevention is critical. Skating again after a concussion carries increased risk.
 
BlissfulSynergy said:
LOL! Of course not. But that isn't really the point. For me, the point of doing the research is to understand the broad spectrum of our amazing U.S. pairs legacy. It is appalling to see the casual mistakes and guessing that happened in Montpelier when Knierim/Frazier won. It demonstrates and solidifies the fact that the sport of figure skating is only grounded in what happens every five minutes, or just over the past five to ten years, if that much. Or, knowledge is limited to the little that's available on YouTube which allows fans to gain only a modicum of understanding of the sport's important history.

As with many things in our culture today, figure skating history is thrown out and forgotten with everyday trash. It was entirely possible for someone on the Montpelier organizing committee to contact the U.S. figure Skating Hall of Fame, or simply check Wikipedia stats like I do, instead of randomly guessing based on bits and pieces of erroneous recall. The information is right there. They definitely had access to talk with someone in the know. As well, authorities in-the-know could have informed them in advance. Even NBC researchers should have been on-the-ball with obtaining historical stats and data, especially after K/F were first in the sp. There's no excuse whatsoever.

More importantly, Tai & Randy are still alive!!! SMH!!! So is John Nicks for that matter! :bang: Also, for everyone's information, John Nicks competed against Karol & Peter Kennedy. When the Kennedys won gold at the 1950 World championships, John Nicks won silver for Great Britain, with his sister, Jennifer.

Karol Kennedy Kucher died at the age of 72, in 2004, at a Seattle, Washington hospital.
www.nytimes.com

Karol Kennedy Kucher, U.S. Skating Champion, Dies at 72 (Published 2004)

Karol Kennedy Kucher, who teamed up with her brother Peter Kennedy to win gold medal in pairs at 1950 world figure-skating championships and silver medal at 1952 Winter Olympics, dies at age 72; photo (M)
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

According to Wikipedia, Peter Kennedy is still alive! He was born in 1927, so he's 94. But I bet not many people in U.S. figure skating know this, much less care. Sad. As far as I'm concerned, it would be wonderful if a special tribute and gathering was put together this summer to honor some of the greats of U.S. pairs figure skating, and have them meet Knierim/Frazier and current top teams. A gathering could be held at the Irvine rink. If some people can't travel, arrange for them to be there via Zoom.

An in-person photo-op with Peter Kennedy, John Nicks, Jenni & Todd, Knierim/Frazier, Chris Knierim, Ash/Timothy, Tai & Randy, JoJo & Ken, The Carruthers, Calalang/Johnson, Yamaguchi & Galindo, and others perhaps, such as Rockne Brubaker & Keauna McLaughlin, Caydee & Haven Denney, Jeremy Barrett, et al, would be great! It might be difficult to arrange, but an important piece of U.S. figure skating history will be lost when Peter Kennedy passes. At age 94, he may or may not be in good health. I didn't even realize he was still alive. I had no idea when his sister Karol died, until I checked.

Peter Kennedy (figure skater) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Wow, I found an article dated Feb 5, 2022, in The Wenatchee World, where Peter Kennedy is interviewed, and is shown holding an old skating photo of him and his sister, Karol. Peter tells the reporter that he will watch the Beijing Olympics pairs final with a great deal of interest. He also indicates that he feels he and his sister, Karol, should have won gold at the 1952 Olympics, except for skating early, and except for political scoring. LOL! Some things never change.

I hope someone makes a small or large gathering possible, so these important pairs generations can meet before Peter Kennedy passes away. I bet if someone further looks into this and puts together a gathering in honor of Karol & Peter, and other greats of U.S. pairs figure skating, it will provide inspiration. Publicizing the fact that at least Peter is still alive, will be informative and enlightening for current pairs skaters and for younger skaters, who may be motivated to pursue pairs skating for the U.S. ❤️

Peter Kennedy's remembrances should also be captured on audio/ video and preserved at the U.S. Figure Skating Museum & Hall of Fame.
Click to expand...
I actually did some of the same research you did and also discovered Peter Kennedy was still alive. I did not go as far down the rabbit hole as you did😀

I agree that USFS has fallen down on the job here. And that’s kind of unusual because they’ve done such a good job with keeping the memory of the 1961 plane crash alive. All of your suggestions are good. You should submit them to USFS.

Where I was trying to go with my comment was that I think K/F could spark an interest in pairs skating similar to the one Tanith and Ben sparked for ice dance. I continue to believe they could be very valuable to USFS and that USFS should do whatever they possibly can to ensure that they don’t retire.

Also, Tai and Randy are not in the World Figure Skating hall of fame which I think is ridiculous.
 
Jammers said:
So what happened to Dany and Chelsea? I know she had a concussion a few months ago but i would think she would be recovered enough by fall to compete.
Click to expand...
Word on the street is that he had a tryout with Olivia Serafini and Chelsea is returning to school. Whether it is related to the concussion or not who knows. So I haunt the pairs thread waiting for word of something official.
 
TontoK said:
Yes. Sometimes people think a concussion is a "bump to the head" that causes no real long term damage. And sometimes, that's all it is, if it's mild.

But often, the consequences are long term, and the multiple concussions carry much greater risk.

In my mind, it's similar to the time I got heat stroke almost 30 years ago. Even today, I have to REALLY watch myself when I'm working outside in the summer or during exercise. I had another incident years after the first one, and I think it was worse than the first time.

The point of that side story is: Prevention is critical. Skating again after a concussion carries increased risk.
Click to expand...
I had a similar experience with heat stroke. But have had multiple concussions and no damage that I can tell.
 
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