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- Jan 25, 2013
Yeah it looks like just another element. I mean the bracket entry and everything. I wasn’t even holding my breath to see if he would land it or not… I was just like - oh, there it is, NBD for him!
Malinin lands first quad axel at US International Classic
- Thread starter 4everchan
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Yeah it looks like just another element. I mean the bracket entry and everything. I wasn’t even holding my breath to see if he would land it or not… I was just like - oh, there it is, NBD for him!
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- Jun 6, 2019
I think the BV is okay, although maybe need to look at GOE system a +5 4A becomes 18.75, a +5 3A is 12. that means a perfect Hanyu 3A is close to Ilias 4A but couple points behind. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing could be a huge debate. A +3 4T is very close to a BV 4A, but a 4A is clearly much much more difficult. Again, we could have a huge debate on this, but I think that comes down to views on the GOE system.
A triple Axel is only worth 8 points unless its backloaded. I think 12.5 is too low. Every other quad has a BV increase of more than 5 points from the triple version, the lowest being the quad toe at 5.3 points...yet the quad axel is only 4.5 points more than a triple axel, even though technically its a half revolution more than other quads.
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- Mar 7, 2015
fair enough but Ilia's GOE will rise on this element... not only because he probably can do it even better but because judges are judges... they were shy here.... Not saying he will get +5s tomorrow.. but the BV of the 4A is pretty potent compared to the 3A. Is there enough difference between the 4A and the 4Lz? that's more where I would orient the debate...
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- Mar 7, 2015
and the extra half-revolution is why the triple axel is 8 point, a whopping 2.1 points more than the triple lutz...
technically, the quad axel is simply one revolution more than the triple... same as any other quad being a revolution more than their respective triple.
I am guessing that the ISU is a bit stingy on purpose here... as they did for quads in pairs... if you have it, you may flaunt it... but if you are working on it to the point of injury, well, it's not worth it that much in terms of BV.
In the end, I think it should be slightly higher in BV.. but not much more
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- Dec 3, 2014
I don't like that 4Lz is only 1 point different than 4A. For the amount of risk, I would have thought they would have at least 2 points gap in base value, if not more.
I know some will raise the fear that the technical might get weighted too highly, than it already is, and that there already is a GOE possibility. But to me it just doesn't seem to reward the sharp risk. I wish the base was high, and we were nerfing it with retrospective viewing, rather than the other way around.
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- Nov 12, 2011
oops, corrected.
in this sense i also think it's too low, and it reminds me of when Simone Biles performed a new beam dismount and got incredibly low balled, so she stopped doing it.
It's probably to discourage others from trying it, either due to risk of injury or not wanting the technical side to weigh too heavy.
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- Jan 25, 2013
The base value of the 4A (so far) hasn't affected the final placements of any competitions in which skaters attempted them, so it hasn't been a huge issue. The BV should be worth way more, but since nobody has successfully landed it ratified before, perhaps it will be accordingly increased now that a skater has finally landed one. IMO it should be worth at least 15 points because of the high risk and difficulty. The BV (or lackthereof) probably won't really make a difference in skaters training/competing it or not... clearly Malinin still trained it even though it wasn't worth much more than a 4L or 4F which are easier.
Usually the men's competitions are determined by margins of several points (look at Malinin's margin of victory even after an abysmal SP), with the winner generally getting 250-325 points.... so the 4A being worth 2 points more isn't worth griping about because it hardly affects results. If Malinin fails to win a competition in spite of landing a 4A, there's lots of other elements and PCS that contribute to that - so worrying about the BV of the 4A is kind of a shrug-your-shoulders thing.
I don't think adding 3-5 points to the 4A's BV will suddenly convince skaters to start training them. You'd have to add like 10 points to the BV for skaters to start YOLOing them, and even then it's super costly if they underrotate/downgrade it, not to mention incredibly risky from an injury standpoint. Point is - ain't nobody doing a 4A for points.
Honestly I don't care how much it's worth - point is he actually landed something nobody has ever landed before.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I agree. It isn't like he could win the event with only a 4A; he still has to execute most everything else well. For me, there should be more of an advantage for those taking this kind of risk when they are successful. Having said that, judges tend to be generous on GOE with quads, where shaky landing will still earn high marks when a triple executed similarly wouldn't. I'd prefer that to be reflected in the base value but if judges want to "right the wrong" by giving a quad higher GOE that's the next best thing.
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- Jan 25, 2013
There is an unsaid advantage to the PCS.
I also think a shaky quad (but still fairly clean) should be worth more than a squeaky clean triple. But a quad with a hand down or stepout should be worth as much as the best executed triple counterpart. In that sense, it kinda makes sense then to have a 4A be worth 15 points in BV because a stepout would drop it to about 12 points, which is about as good as you can get on a 3A. Right now a +2 triple axel and a -2 quad axel are worth about the same, and given that a bunch of men can do +2 triple axels, it doesn't really benefit them from a points standpoint to go after the quad axel, only from an achievement-unlocked standpoint.
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Better quality here: https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1570224475232141312
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- Jul 13, 2014
He did look a bit stressed out before getting into the starting position. But looked relaxed once there was a slight delay.
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- Sep 14, 2008
And that's the problem. A Quad Axel should be incredibly exciting and the rotations in the air should be visible.
This Quad Axel just looks like a Triple if not watching closely, and looks less majestic than a top quality Triple Axel, where there is more distance covered in the jump, clear lift into the air and then rotation, and then descent from the air with the arms opening up when the rotation is near completion. And more flow on the landing.
Malinin turns more on the ice during the takeoff, whips his arms into the rotation, and doesn't stop rotating until landing (short of being fully backwards). Modern jump technique has made jumps look worse because it's all same-y. There aren't different phases to the jump, with pictures being created in the air.
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- Jun 6, 2019
1) If you pause, he doesn't actually turn more on the ice than most people (including kolyada and hanyu, who I model 3A after). All do about 1/4 on the ice, which is normal (vs people like javi who did 1/2)
2) to physically accomplish 4A, you need insane rotation speed. There isn't any time to be inefficient, and the technique if optimised to land it rather than insane aesthetic appearance that you get under other technique.
3) the jump did look visibly higher than a 3A to me.
4) there are different phases to his jump, again visible in slow motion (to me visible in normal speed, because I was already looking for these points specifically). To add the extra rotation, everything needs to be done faster without shortening the range of motion. Ilia still kicks up, close to his body witha very high, bent knee, then closes in pushing right foot behind left. This is the same you see for a typical double or triple axel, but done much faster as you need to initiate the rotation much quicker to have any hope of getting the required revolutions.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I disagree - he doesn’t “whip” the jump, and he clearly elevates before getting into rotation. And the takeoff doesn’t have much pre rotation, and it wouldn’t work if he excessively pre rotated it as in an edge jump that would kill the momentum and spring.
The reason he is able to execute it is that he is patient enough to maximize height before getting into the rotation which is why Hanyu and Dimitriev Jr failed to execute it (they pulled into the rotation before getting peak height) let alone come close.
His air position is good and yeah that landing position wasn’t great but it was still very clean.
Not sure what your expectation of a quad axel is - did you expect a delay going into the rotation or something? On a quad axel?
My point about it looking like another element was that it was done without hesitation or long set up (even has a bracket entry), and it wasn’t some monumental buildup.
You’re welcome to go back and watch videos of elegant delayed double jumps or watch gala programs for the artistry, but this is evolution of the competitive sport of figure skating. Delayed fassi-style jumps are been there done that, and also exceedingly difficult for most skaters to execute as you need an extremely good snap and speed of rotation (otherwise you get Karen Chen-esque URs even if the amplitude/air position is great).
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