Malinin lands first quad axel at US International Classic

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Not having the open body positions at the start and end of the jump ARE the lacking phases. Malinin does indeed lack them in the jump, his "faster rotation" is a direct removal of those qualities.

It is not "necessary" to do this to fit in the extra rotation. 4A could be done with the more open and explosive technique. Like I said, it would require more speed going in, and would be incredibly difficult to land. To the point that probably nobody would do it successfully.

But that is what should be expected in a jump. We shouldn't be clamoring to reward rotation for the sake of it, with a blind eye to everything else. The jump should first be a jump, with the expected qualities that make it look complete. If people are not able to do that, then the jump simply can not be done properly. 3A did not lack these qualities when people brought it into the sport. It had the same apparent phases as the 2A, with the rotations in the air being fully visible.

So while his 4A can technically be recognized, it should not receive bonus GOE when done like this. If anything, the one Malinin did should be -1 GOE because of lacking speed on the landing and needing to put the free foot down shortly afterward.



Samarin definitely has a better 4Lz than quite a few others, not sure why you're trying to go after that jump. His 4Lz is not one of the most renowned, Boyang Jin's is the type that gets bigger reactions, exactly because of its massive amplitude, speed, and total completeness of rotation.



They are not bogus, you're just bad at assessing these things like usual. He has not already left the ice in the second picture shown. His toepick can be clearly seen in the ice, that is the takeoff point.

Here is a very clear full shot that shows his skate in relation to the side board (which is where the takeoff started); he is past the point of perpendicular:

No, the first picture is showing where he's about to start taking off. His free foot starts swinging forward right after that point. Obviously this should be understood.

The point being, he's clearly not starting the take off at some point beyond where his skate is facing the side board. I already anticipated some people might try to claim his foot is starting past the side board, when that is not case.

Okay. Well see what you see hun. Definitely write a letter to the ISU to revoke the ratified jump, just like Sotnikova’s 3Z+3T you definitely have a case and they will definitely listen to your grievances.

I would also like to point out that his quad axel at Slate America should adhere to your guidelines and have been called <<… and -5 GOE. Also very overscored on PCS. Should be 60 maximum.

There, happy?

 

[Blades of Passion]

More strawmans and blatant misrepresentations, while ignoring you were wrong about his takeoff. Of course. The pre-rotation should be even easier to see with the Skate America broadcast:

Not that there's anything wrong, in itself, with this amount of blade turn on the ice. The issue is the way he's spinning into the jump, rather than first jumping UP and OUT and then rotating.

This 4Axel at Skate America was definitely a big improvement overall though. There was more room in the air coming down and a better landing. It looked significantly better, with more defined air rotation, and can be called a good jump. That said, it was overscored; the inherently flawed technique still needs to be accounted for. The judge who gave +2 GOE has the right idea. There definitely shouldn't be +4's happening for this.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

More strawmans and blatant misrepresentations, while ignoring you were wrong about his takeoff. Of course. The pre-rotation should be even easier to see with the Skate America broadcast:

Not that there's anything wrong, in itself, with this amount of blade turn on the ice. The issue is the way he's spinning into the jump, rather than first jumping UP and OUT and then rotating.

This 4Axel at Skate America was definitely a big improvement overall though. There was more room in the air coming down and a better landing. It looked significantly better, with more defined air rotation, and can be called a good jump. That said, it was overscored; the inherently flawed technique still needs to be accounted for. The judge who gave +2 GOE has the right idea. There definitely shouldn't be +4's happening for this.

Until this point, literally nobody has agreed with you about his takeoff being at least a quarter pre-rotated. And several people including the judges agree that it is valid and the jump has a suitable takeoff.

What really shocks me is that you actually gave him a +2 on his Skate America attempt. There’s hope for everyone it seems.

 

[solani]

Great jump and good for him!
It's true, that had quads are not that impressive. But I don't have the impression, that he's going to hurt himself, so I would say, that his technique is very smart. And yes, he shouldn't get very high GOE's for his jumps, but I would've given the axel a +3, because I'm excited and a +1 or 2 is ok.

 

[sisinka]

That is 1/4+, clearly.

Like I said before though, it's more about how the body is turning into the jump rather than kicking through. He is tightly winding in earlier, whereas with the other guys they still have an open body position in the air 1/2 rotation into the jump. They are pushing the jump outward and "exploding" into more, whereas here it's more about just getting around the circle.

What Ilia executes is great technique of axel jump.

To be able to get height in the jump = to transform horizontal energy into vertical = you need to get on toe pick.

To get full strenght take off from toe pick, you need to turn about that quarter / almost quarter.

All skaters with great axel are doing this.

On the contrary many ladies are going to the air in moment when blade is still moving forward. Their axel is small then. And men who are struggling to learn triple axel have usually this technical problem, they are not turning to get on the toe pick.

Watch the video below – compare Alexei Urmanov and Kurt Browning‘s axel – they are both turning that quarter (Browning more visibly), while Satoko Miahara is jumping forward.

mp4: YouCut_20221023_145145685.mp4

Visit this link to play the video: YouCut_20221023_145145685.mp4

files.fm

 

[sisinka]

Here is more objective progression of images from him starting to swing the free leg through until the moment of actual take off where his blade (pick) leaves the ice. Note especially in images 1-3 where his blade is pointing to the side boards (where the jump actually heads towards) compared to your first image that erroneously purports the "start" of the jump's rotation is at the moment of his t-push off.

1) https://ibb.co/7Qc2GvP
2) https://ibb.co/JQDkNwj
3) https://ibb.co/vmvm9nK
4) https://ibb.co/t82yG3m
5) https://ibb.co/rvwjCtv


Here's a fan video https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MUB5ugSDdZ4 that clearly shows the trajectory of his jump is towards the side boards (and thus where any pre-rotation should be correctly assessed in relation to) and not that vertical line at the boards.
https://ibb.co/WHfPDHs

You are absolutely right.

Going into the jump - when skaters put take off leg on the ice for the first moment, the curve is big, then you start to turn into smaller curve and then you finally get on toe pick for proper take off. So the picture taken immediately when the take off leg touches the ice for the first moment is misleading.

 

[sisinka]

LOL, the modern technique of utilizing the toepick more to takeoff is not something that shows better quality. Clean edge takeoffs are more difficult. Malinin doesn't use speed as much on a takeoff, there's more of a slowdown with the blade on the takeoff, which speaks to the overall thing I've been talking about with how it's less explosive. Dynamics are something that needs to be part of assessing jumps.

How do you mean this?

Proper technique of every jump means that you also get on toe pick before take off.

If you try to go to the air from the edge - you usually finish like Brian Joubert in 2002 - https://files.fm/u/cy8cc4afd .

 

[Skatermom91]

I was looking at the protocols... and noticed he had done it... I didn't have a live stream... those who did, how was the jump? Judges gave him positive GOE.

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!

https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2022/csusa2022/FSKMSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

 

[cheerknithanson]

Some people are harshhhhhh

 

[gsk8]

Just a note that this thread is for the quad Axel at US Classic. There is another thread for the quad at Skate America here so that the two are not confused.

Malinin's quad Axel at Skate America

https://www.goldenskate.com/2022/10/2022-skate-america-men/ Malinin, who took a fall on a quad toe in the short program (86.08), put down a new personal best (194.29) with his free skate to music from Euphoria. The 2022 World Junior Champion also took a fall on a under-rotated quad Lutz...

www.goldenskate.com

​

 

[Blades of Passion]

Until this point, literally nobody has agreed with you about his takeoff being at least a quarter pre-rotated.

That is not true at all. Populism does not equal correctness anyway. What matters is who is objectively correct, and I've given very clear factual evidence. No amount of sticking your head in the sand will change the laws of physics and basic angle measurements.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Proper technique of every jump means that you also get on toe pick before take off.

No it doesn't, that's just the easier way to do an edge jump (and thus has become standardized). You can jump directly from the edge, or at least the usage of the toepick can be merely incidental as the blade leaves the ice; jumping more from the blade rather than knowingly riding up onto the toepick and around the circle further on the takeoff.

It used to be common for the Loop jump to leave the ice more from the edge, and this technique for the Axel was literally known as doing a "clean edge" axel. If you watch the way Jeremy Abbott used to do his 3Axel, he tended towards that technique; there was very minimal turn on the ice and he would launch from the edge without try to flex the foot up to the toepick much.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That is not true at all. Populism does not equal correctness anyway. What matters is who is objectively correct, and I've given very clear factual evidence. No amount of sticking your head in the sand will change the laws of physics and basic angle measurements.

Okay well if you say it’s correct then at least in your eyes it is correct and hopefully that is sufficient for you even if literally nobody agrees with you. That isn’t populism, that is a lone opinion - and a subjective one at that. More than one person has clocked you for bogus screenshots that do not legitimately capture the takeoff points. Your bias towards his jumping and him in general precludes you from making an objective argument. There is no point even countering what you are proposing because even with tangible evidence you will still say a blue sky is green if that is what your eyes see. The only suitable opinion anyone else may have is one that agrees with you.

Meanwhile, Malinin is still killing it — and that matters more than any of our opinions… let alone lone biased subjective opinions.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I have no "bias" against him, LOL. I was arguing last season he should have been sent to the Olympics. You always do these strawmans. Can't ever have a real discussion.

There is nothing bogus about the screenshots at all. The takeoff points are very clear and have been shown multiple times now. He is factually doing 1/4+ pre-rotation and it was ridiculous for you to argue he wasn't, simply because you wanted to defend his 4A at all costs.

 

[sisinka]

No it doesn't, that's just the easier way to do an edge jump (and thus has become standardized). You can jump directly from the edge, or at least the usage of the toepick can be merely incidental as the blade leaves the ice; jumping more from the blade rather than knowingly riding up onto the toepick and around the circle further on the takeoff.

It used to be common for the Loop jump to leave the ice more from the edge, and this technique for the Axel was literally known as doing a "clean edge" axel.

I don‘t know whether you are former skater or coach. It is possible that in 50s or 60s jumps were taught / executed from edge (as well as legs were not crossed in the air in the very beginning of jumping era). Since that time technique developed a lot and I believe to better one. Today's technique allows jumps to be higher with better position in the air, more stable.

Compare triple salchow's execution from 1973 (Olympic, World and European Champ Ondrej Nepela) and 2002 (European medalist Viktoria Volchkova). Toe pick used in both cases.
https://files.fm/u/b54x2fq2m

 

[sisinka]

If you watch the way Jeremy Abbott used to do his 3Axel, he tended towards that technique; there was very minimal turn on the ice and he would launch from the edge without try to flex the foot up to the toepick much.

From slow motion I can see that Jeremy is using toe pick, but yes, much less than Browning / Urmanov / Kulik / Voronov / Malinin...or any other skater with great and high triple axel.

Jeremy's 3 axel - https://files.fm/u/6ff3ss36a .

I remember Jeremy being great in skating skills, but very inconsistent coming to jumps.

That is why I watched some protocols from some of his best years – among 2008 – 2010:
- Worlds 2009 - both SP and LP with 3A (minus GOE)
- Skate Canada 2009 - both SP and LP with 3A (minus GOE)
- NHK Trophy 2009 - LP - 1A, 3A with fall
- GP Final 2009 - SP - 3A with turn after landing
- Olympics 2010 - SP - 1A
- Worlds 2010 - LP - 2A with fall

I think this shows that his axel jump was not consistent element - it usually means that there is some technical mistake in the jump's execution. Could it be lesser use of toe pick during take off which led to more problematic execution of the jump?

But I indeed know one Olympic champion in past 25 years executing axel from edge.
BUT....do you really want to claim that Tara Lipinski executed axel jump better using better and more difficult technique than Jeremy or Kurt Browning?

mp4: YouCut_20221104_195312088.mp4

Visit this link to play the video: YouCut_20221104_195312088.mp4

files.fm