Malinin lands first quad axel at US International Classic | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Malinin lands first quad axel at US International Classic

And that's the problem. A Quad Axel should be incredibly exciting and the rotations in the air should be visible.

This Quad Axel just looks like a Triple if not watching closely, and looks less majestic than a top quality Triple Axel, where there is more distance covered in the jump, clear lift into the air and then rotation, and then descent from the air with the arms opening up when the rotation is near completion. And more flow on the landing.

Malinin turns more on the ice during the takeoff, whips his arms into the rotation, and doesn't stop rotating until landing (short of being fully backwards). Modern jump technique has made jumps look worse because it's all same-y. There aren't different phases to the jump, with pictures being created in the air.

I agree it would be nice if skaters focused on getting lots of height on their triple jumps, delayed rotation and also if they were able to fully rotate the jumps long before the landing comes. But cmon, we're talking about the quad axel here.
 
1) If you pause, he doesn't actually turn more on the ice than most people (including kolyada and hanyu, who I model 3A after). All do about 1/4 on the ice, which is normal (vs people like javi who did 1/2)
3) the jump did look visibly higher than a 3A to me.
4) there are different phases to his jump, again visible in slow motion

He's turning more than 1/4. It's not just about the takeoff leg though, but about the way the free leg is turning further into the circle on the takeoff, rather than powerfully kicking through.

Go look at a 3A from Browning, Petrenko, Wylie, Yagudin, etc. This 4A has less ice coverage, with less explosive quality off the ice, and doesn't complete the rotation in the air before descending (nor fully complete it at all).

I disagree - he doesn’t “whip” the jump

His arms are factually closing into his body sooner than the majestic 3A's of the past, and not unfurling before landing as they should. The technique could be even whippier, sure, but it's still flawed and a step down from what jumps are supposed to be.

Not sure what your expectation of a quad axel is - did you expect a delay going into the rotation or something? On a quad axel?

To do a quad axel with ideal technique, it would require a ton of speed going in and incredible control to convert that into huge amplitude and rotational speed, and then break out sufficiently into a landing. Hence why it's close to impossible.

People can do worse technique if they want, but the GOE should be scored appropriately.

this is evolution of the competitive sport of figure skating. Delayed fassi-style jumps are been there done that, and also exceedingly difficult for most skaters to execute

No that style of jumps is not "been there, done that", it's exactly what should be codified by the rules to get high GOE, it looks better and is the technique used in ballet for a reason.

You just admitted it's difficult to do. So then indeed it's exactly what a competitive sport should be measuring. A JUMP is not a simple measurement of rotation (although modern technique is worse in that regard too, since takeoffs are more cheated). A jump is something that's supposed to be about flight in the air.
 
It is still a quad axel, even without any quality in it. So, you get your base value for it and move on... Any other better performed quad can give you more points, it just depends on what everything you can do (in a competitive programme)...
 
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He's turning more than 1/4. It's not just about the takeoff leg though, but about the way the free leg is turning further into the circle on the takeoff, rather than powerfully kicking through.

Go look at a 3A from Browning, Petrenko, Wylie, Yagudin, etc. This 4A has less ice coverage, with less explosive quality off the ice, and doesn't complete the rotation in the air before descending (nor fully complete it at all).



His arms are factually closing into his body sooner than the majestic 3A's of the past, and not unfurling before landing as they should. The technique could be even whippier, sure, but it's still flawed and a step down from what jumps are supposed to be.

What are jumps "supposed to be"?
Who defined the "good technique" and "bad technique" in this regard.
People learnt jumps in the way that they thought would maximise their ability to land them. This has changed with technique refinements and improvement to improve technical consistency (also allowing for difficult entrances/less telegraphed jumps).

May I ask, have you ever watched Yagudins 3A in slow motion? He does exactly the same thing as Ilia, just slower. In fact, he actually prerotates past the quater with takeoff leg, and does same thing with free leg, just not as close to the body and nowhere near as efficient.
Yes Yagudins 3A was huge, but it was also wild, uncomfortable and uncontrolled. I much preferred Plushenko's neater 3A in this reguard.

That's why I argue efficient technique should be seen as good technique. It allows for more consistency rather than throwing yourself uncontrollably into a jump. It reduces risk of injury. It improves other visual aspects of a jump. It allows for more complicated jumps to be performed.
I get that some people are nostalgic for the older days where these wild jumps were constantly performed that looked out of control like Brownings 3F/3Lz, but even back then people like Boitano were starting to improve the jump efficiency, and we started to get more and more refined technique shown in skaters like Yuna Kim that many people set as the benchmark for good jump mechanics.
 
That's why I argue efficient technique should be seen as good technique.

I agree with this, as long as "efficient" doesn't mean more prerotation and underrotation. Anyway, I believe that jumps that are fully rotated long before the landing should be rewarded in GOE over those with just enough rotation to not receive the q mark.
 
He's turning more than 1/4. It's not just about the takeoff leg though, but about the way the free leg is turning further into the circle on the takeoff, rather than powerfully kicking through.

Go look at a 3A from Browning, Petrenko, Wylie, Yagudin, etc. This 4A has less ice coverage, with less explosive quality off the ice, and doesn't complete the rotation in the air before descending (nor fully complete it at all).



His arms are factually closing into his body sooner than the majestic 3A's of the past, and not unfurling before landing as they should. The technique could be even whippier, sure, but it's still flawed and a step down from what jumps are supposed to be.



To do a quad axel with ideal technique, it would require a ton of speed going in and incredible control to convert that into huge amplitude and rotational speed, and then break out sufficiently into a landing. Hence why it's close to impossible.

People can do worse technique if they want, but the GOE should be scored appropriately.



No that style of jumps is not "been there, done that", it's exactly what should be codified by the rules to get high GOE, it looks better and is the technique used in ballet for a reason.

You just admitted it's difficult to do. So then indeed it's exactly what a competitive sport should be measuring. A JUMP is not a simple measurement of rotation (although modern technique is worse in that regard too, since takeoffs are more cheated). A jump is something that's supposed to be about flight in the air.

No you’re just factually wrong - he doesn’t go over a quarter or even get to a quarter: slow it down 1:15 at this video https://youtu.be/1u_wYag9YtU

His skate leaves the ice with him still facing in the forwards direction.

Also Kurt Browning, etc could never achieve what Malinin executed. And those guys definitely don’t do a bracket entry into their jumps - they power through with a comparatively telegraphed jump (as was the norm in the 90’s/00’s when transitions into jumps weren’t prioritized and you could stroke into them to max your speed).

Here is Kurt’s - the prerotation is equivalent to Malinin’s and Malinin actually does a better job pressing off the pick whereas Browning has a bit of a skid/push off the blade. Still a beautiful jump though. https://youtu.be/mhos446bwzQ

It’s even more interesting that you try to claim Malinin has egregious pre rotation and then say to go look at Yagudin when he has much more prerotation that very obviously goes past a quarter prior to his skate leaving the ice (see the :26 mark): https://youtu.be/FSwM7oj1_WY
 
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i think the big thing some are forgetting here is that this is a QUAD axel. not a triple. this jump has never, ever been landed in competition before and it is the closest to a quint we have gotten humanly possible to so far (and IMO, likely will ever be). this has another full rotation versus a triple, and it's not going to have the same technique or efficiency it as a triple. again, this is close to a freaking QUINT.

how absurdly casually Malinin goes into it is mind blowing. he's not stalking the jump or telegraphing, he literally just whips it off no problem from a difficult entrance- which many of those doing 3A's can't even do. and yes, it is factually correct his takeoff foot does not rotate more than 1/4 on the ice before lifting off. he might not have the completely straight up and down lift of someone like Kostornaia (not many do), but again we are talking about almost a quintuple jump. the amount of lift he gets is impressive for having to complete 4.5 rotations before his blade hits the ice- he's not trying to whip the jump around just for rotation's sake. and if i took a wild guess, i'd assume one would have to have some degree of rotation simultaneously with the lift to pull that many rotations off.

is it 100% perfect? no. is it incredibly impressive he's doing it as efficiently as he is? hell yes.
 
According to the practice reports from Japan Open right now, Ilia just did a runthrough of his FS with this layout:



I want to see this happen. A 7-quad free skate... with all the combinations backloaded... whew! Those at Japan Open are in for a treat!

Me too :) Where can I watch?
 
According to the practice reports from Japan Open right now, Ilia just did a runthrough of his FS with this layout:



I want to see this happen. A 7-quad free skate... with all the combinations backloaded... whew! Those at Japan Open are in for a treat!

And that's the full set of quads in one program!
 
What are jumps "supposed to be"?
Who defined the "good technique" and "bad technique" in this regard.

Sport and dance across many decades has pretty clearly defined it. Amplitude, explosiveness, timing, positioning, ballon, full rotation, flow - these are obviously good qualities to have. It's strange you feign ignorance on the subject when there are millions of gymnasts, dancers, athletes, and informed spectators who understand this already.

Just because certain bad rules or customs exist in figure skating at the given moment, that doesn't mean it's what the sport should be striving for. The laziness and narrow-mindedness of the scoring system and the officials does not define figure skating itself. It's merely one demented version of skating and sport that we are forced to deal with right now.

May I ask, have you ever watched Yagudins 3A in slow motion? He does exactly the same thing as Ilia

That is not true whatsoever. Yagudin's arms are still in an open position a 1/2 rotation into the jump and his free leg stretched behind. His legs don't totally pull in until a full rotation into the jump. And then his arms open up in the air FAR above the ice as he descends into a perfectly backwards landing.

Yes Yagudins 3A was huge, but it was also wild,
That's why I argue efficient technique should be seen as good technique. It allows for more consistency

Jumping huge is more difficult, more fun to do, and more exciting to watch. It needs to be worth more, or else the risk-reward of the sport is not being ascertained properly (not to mention the audience appeal). "Allowing for more consistency" does not make something better peak quality. If you hunch your back and flex your feet in dance or gymnastics it's going to make moves easier, and thus more consistent, but that doesn't mean it's good. The same goes for all the other qualities of jumps. Again, risk-reward. People jumping smaller and with less dynamics and cheated rotations will certainly increase consistency, but that doesn't mean it should be idealized. There needs to be a worthwhile separation in the points for doing all these things correctly, so the people who want to risk the better quality are being rewarded when they execute.

It's sad this is even a discussion that needs to be had. It used to simply be standard. All the top competitors strived for these qualities, because it was understood that's how you do it properly and that's what is going to make you able to win. We currently exist in a nightmare branch of reality, where so many of the great aspects of the sport, and general common sense, has been replaced with random rules on paper that don't even reflect the intent of why the rules were created in the first place. It's like taking a film or any great book or artwork, and giving a synopsis or superficial description, and then acting like that synopsis is the same thing as the artwork itself. Or something being mistranslated and the populace just going through life thinking the mistranslation is the real thing.

i think the big thing some are forgetting here is that this is a QUAD axel. not a triple. this jump has never, ever been landed in competition before

It's never been landed before, because the people in this sport for DECADES who attempted it or thought about it doing it, were trying to do it with a more proper technique, and thus found it to be far too difficult. If people in the past grew up trying to do lower quality jumps with current techniques, then they too could have achieved what current skaters are doing. There's nothing inherently more talented about the current skaters. Only a reframing of how things are being done.

he doesn’t go over a quarter or even get to a quarter: slow it down 1:15 at this video https://youtu.be/1u_wYag9YtU

His skate leaves the ice with him still facing in the forwards direction.

Your eyes seem to have an issue. Here are actual screencaps, look at the skate:

KmhklrV.png
PrjttZB.png


That is 1/4+, clearly.

Like I said before though, it's more about how the body is turning into the jump rather than kicking through. He is tightly winding in earlier, whereas with the other guys they still have an open body position in the air 1/2 rotation into the jump. They are pushing the jump outward and "exploding" into more, whereas here it's more about just getting around the circle.

Malinin actually does a better job pressing off the pick whereas Browning has a bit of a skid/push off the blade.

LOL, the modern technique of utilizing the toepick more to takeoff is not something that shows better quality. Clean edge takeoffs are more difficult. Malinin doesn't use speed as much on a takeoff, there's more of a slowdown with the blade on the takeoff, which speaks to the overall thing I've been talking about with how it's less explosive. Dynamics are something that needs to be part of assessing jumps.
 
Sport and dance across many decades has pretty clearly defined it. Amplitude, explosiveness, timing, positioning, ballon, full rotation, flow - these are obviously good qualities to have. It's strange you feign ignorance on the subject when there are millions of gymnasts, dancers, athletes, and informed spectators who understand this already.
By good technique, I'm talking about takeoff mechanics. Although, By what you have defined Ilia has Amplitude (It's a very high jump, I don't know why people are saying it's not) , explosiveness (launches himself high as well as his knee), timing, positioning down to a T just to be able to land this jump. Rotation is maybe a tiny bit chipped but still classed as a rotated jump.
That is not true whatsoever. Yagudin's arms are still in an open position a 1/2 rotation into the jump and his free leg stretched behind. His legs don't totally pull in until a full rotation into the jump. And then his arms open up in the air FAR above the ice as he descends into a perfectly backwards landing.


Yagudins 3A takeoff ^


Ilias 4A takeoff ^

And here is the jump after half a revolution in the air:

Yagudin ^

Ilia ^

From there, both pull into rotation position. Ilia has faster rotation as is jumping 4A, and he also exits later- again, due to requiring extra revolution. I stand by both of them having similar takeoff mechanics. I don't understand what videos you are watching, but you can't say Yagudin does phases and Ilia doesn't, Ilia just does them faster - as you'd expect with 4A... The range of motion is pretty similar, Ilia just is quicker - which is a necessity to fit in the extra revolution.

Jumping huge is more difficult, more fun to do, and more exciting to watch. It needs to be worth more, or else the risk-reward of the sport is not being ascertained properly (not to mention the audience appeal). "Allowing for more consistency" does not make something better peak quality. If you hunch your back and flex your feet in dance or gymnastics it's going to make moves easier, and thus more consistent, but that doesn't mean it's good. The same goes for all the other qualities of jumps. Again, risk-reward. People jumping smaller and with less dynamics and cheated rotations will certainly increase consistency, but that doesn't mean it should be idealized. There needs to be a worthwhile separation in the points for doing all these things correctly, so the people who want to risk the better quality are being rewarded when they execute.

It's sad this is even a discussion that needs to be had. It used to simply be standard. All the top competitors strived for these qualities, because it was understood that's how you do it properly and that's what is going to make you able to win. We currently exist in a nightmare branch of reality, where so many of the great aspects of the sport, and general common sense, has been replaced with random rules on paper that don't even reflect the intent of why the rules were created in the first place. It's like taking a film or any great book or artwork, and giving a synopsis or superficial description, and then acting like that synopsis is the same thing as the artwork itself. Or something being mistranslated and the populace just going through life thinking the mistranslation is the real thing.
If we are going by audience appeal, then we can class Alexander Samarin's 4Lz as textbook, as it has huge audience appeal. Here's a hint: It's not good technique.

And again, I want to point out that Ilia's 4A is huge. It's just not wild, like the old jumpers. If you measure the distance off the ice, I bet It'd be bigger than Yagudins (especially judging from the screenshots - Ilia fully extends his takeoff leg maximising takeoff height whereas Yagudin remains on a soft knee). If somebody executes a high, neat jump this is much better in quality than a high, whacky jump even if it doesn't put the audience on the edge of their seats.

I'm not going to comment on the other point's quoting other commenters, but I do think a lot of what I have shown, particularly in the screenshots is applicable to those comments as well.
 
Sport and dance across many decades has pretty clearly defined it. Amplitude, explosiveness, timing, positioning, ballon, full rotation, flow - these are obviously good qualities to have. It's strange you feign ignorance on the subject when there are millions of gymnasts, dancers, athletes, and informed spectators who understand this already.

Just because certain bad rules or customs exist in figure skating at the given moment, that doesn't mean it's what the sport should be striving for. The laziness and narrow-mindedness of the scoring system and the officials does not define figure skating itself. It's merely one demented version of skating and sport that we are forced to deal with right now.



That is not true whatsoever. Yagudin's arms are still in an open position a 1/2 rotation into the jump and his free leg stretched behind. His legs don't totally pull in until a full rotation into the jump. And then his arms open up in the air FAR above the ice as he descends into a perfectly backwards landing.



Jumping huge is more difficult, more fun to do, and more exciting to watch. It needs to be worth more, or else the risk-reward of the sport is not being ascertained properly (not to mention the audience appeal). "Allowing for more consistency" does not make something better peak quality. If you hunch your back and flex your feet in dance or gymnastics it's going to make moves easier, and thus more consistent, but that doesn't mean it's good. The same goes for all the other qualities of jumps. Again, risk-reward. People jumping smaller and with less dynamics and cheated rotations will certainly increase consistency, but that doesn't mean it should be idealized. There needs to be a worthwhile separation in the points for doing all these things correctly, so the people who want to risk the better quality are being rewarded when they execute.

It's sad this is even a discussion that needs to be had. It used to simply be standard. All the top competitors strived for these qualities, because it was understood that's how you do it properly and that's what is going to make you able to win. We currently exist in a nightmare branch of reality, where so many of the great aspects of the sport, and general common sense, has been replaced with random rules on paper that don't even reflect the intent of why the rules were created in the first place. It's like taking a film or any great book or artwork, and giving a synopsis or superficial description, and then acting like that synopsis is the same thing as the artwork itself. Or something being mistranslated and the populace just going through life thinking the mistranslation is the real thing.



It's never been landed before, because the people in this sport for DECADES who attempted it or thought about it doing it, were trying to do it with a more proper technique, and thus found it to be far too difficult. If people in the past grew up trying to do lower quality jumps with current techniques, then they too could have achieved what current skaters are doing. There's nothing inherently more talented about the current skaters. Only a reframing of how things are being done.



Your eyes seem to have an issue. Here are actual screencaps, look at the skate:

KmhklrV.png
PrjttZB.png


That is 1/4+, clearly.

Like I said before though, it's more about how the body is turning into the jump rather than kicking through. He is tightly winding in earlier, whereas with the other guys they still have an open body position in the air 1/2 rotation into the jump. They are pushing the jump outward and "exploding" into more, whereas here it's more about just getting around the circle.



LOL, the modern technique of utilizing the toepick more to takeoff is not something that shows better quality. Clean edge takeoffs are more difficult. Malinin doesn't use speed as much on a takeoff, there's more of a slowdown with the blade on the takeoff, which speaks to the overall thing I've been talking about with how it's less explosive. Dynamics are something that needs to be part of assessing jumps.

The screen caps you provided are bogus - the first one implies that the trajectory of the jump should start at where his blade is pointing in that picture at the start of his t-push off, which is towards the vertical line on the boards — you merely screencapped earlier on to attempt to prove your point. Moreover, you picked a second frame that is actually after he has already left the ice. 🙈

An axel is done on a forward outside edge, and a skater rides that curve before taking off… the moment a skater does their t-push off (which you've screencapped) doesn’t define the takeoff/start of the jump's rotation - I mean, you chose a moment when his right foot is still on the ice and hasn't even started to bend/raise up behind him yet to start the swing through in that first picture! Given that his blade in that screencap is pointing at the vertical line on the boards, you’re essentially suggesting that, with zero prerotation, the trajectory of the jump should be towards that vertical line… when we all know that the trajectory of the jump is towards the side boards and thus the prerotation is under a quarter. 💁‍♀️

Here is more objective progression of images from him starting to swing the free leg through until the moment of actual take off where his blade (pick) leaves the ice. Note especially in images 1-3 where his blade is pointing to the side boards (where the jump actually heads towards) compared to your first image that erroneously purports the "start" of the jump's rotation is at the moment of his t-push off.

1) https://ibb.co/7Qc2GvP
2) https://ibb.co/JQDkNwj
3) https://ibb.co/vmvm9nK
4) https://ibb.co/t82yG3m
5) https://ibb.co/rvwjCtv


Here's a fan video https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MUB5ugSDdZ4 that clearly shows the trajectory of his jump is towards the side boards (and thus where any pre-rotation should be correctly assessed in relation to) and not that vertical line at the boards.
https://ibb.co/WHfPDHs
 
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Just because certain bad rules or customs exist in figure skating at the given moment, that doesn't mean it's what the sport should be striving for. The laziness and narrow-mindedness of the scoring system and the officials does not define figure skating itself. It's merely one demented version of skating and sport that we are forced to deal with right now.

Jumping huge is more difficult, more fun to do, and more exciting to watch. It needs to be worth more, or else the risk-reward of the sport is not being ascertained properly (not to mention the audience appeal). "Allowing for more consistency" does not make something better peak quality. If you hunch your back and flex your feet in dance or gymnastics it's going to make moves easier, and thus more consistent, but that doesn't mean it's good. The same goes for all the other qualities of jumps. Again, risk-reward. People jumping smaller and with less dynamics and cheated rotations will certainly increase consistency, but that doesn't mean it should be idealized. There needs to be a worthwhile separation in the points for doing all these things correctly, so the people who want to risk the better quality are being rewarded when they execute.

We currently exist in a nightmare branch of reality, where so many of the great aspects of the sport, and general common sense, has been replaced with random rules on paper that don't even reflect the intent of why the rules were created in the first place. It's like taking a film or any great book or artwork, and giving a synopsis or superficial description, and then acting like that synopsis is the same thing as the artwork itself. Or something being mistranslated and the populace just going through life thinking the mistranslation is the real thing.

I generally agree with these statements, but not in relation to Malinin's 4A. I mean, it's evident that his 4A is huge and he doesn't prerotate more than 1/4 (the first picture doesn't actually show the direction of the jump). The landing was far from ideal though and that's why he didn't get high GOE.
 
Ilia has faster rotation as is jumping 4A, and he also exits later- again, due to requiring extra revolution. You can't say Yagudin does phases and Ilia doesn't, Ilia just does them faster - as you'd expect with 4A... The range of motion is pretty similar, Ilia just is quicker - which is a necessity to fit in the extra revolution.

Not having the open body positions at the start and end of the jump ARE the lacking phases. Malinin does indeed lack them in the jump, his "faster rotation" is a direct removal of those qualities.

It is not "necessary" to do this to fit in the extra rotation. 4A could be done with the more open and explosive technique. Like I said, it would require more speed going in, and would be incredibly difficult to land. To the point that probably nobody would do it successfully.

But that is what should be expected in a jump. We shouldn't be clamoring to reward rotation for the sake of it, with a blind eye to everything else. The jump should first be a jump, with the expected qualities that make it look complete. If people are not able to do that, then the jump simply can not be done properly. 3A did not lack these qualities when people brought it into the sport. It had the same apparent phases as the 2A, with the rotations in the air being fully visible.

So while his 4A can technically be recognized, it should not receive bonus GOE when done like this. If anything, the one Malinin did should be -1 GOE because of lacking speed on the landing and needing to put the free foot down shortly afterward.

If we are going by audience appeal, then we can class Alexander Samarin's 4Lz as textbook, as it has huge audience appeal. Here's a hint: It's not good technique.

Samarin definitely has a better 4Lz than quite a few others, not sure why you're trying to go after that jump. His 4Lz is not one of the most renowned, Boyang Jin's is the type that gets bigger reactions, exactly because of its massive amplitude, speed, and total completeness of rotation.

The screen caps you provided are bogus. Moreover, you picked a second frame that is actually after he has already left the ice. 🙈

They are not bogus, you're just bad at assessing these things like usual. He has not already left the ice in the second picture shown. His toepick can be clearly seen in the ice, that is the takeoff point.

Here is a very clear full shot that shows his skate in relation to the side board (which is where the takeoff started); he is past the point of perpendicular:

tHtx5aQ.png



the first one implies that the trajectory of the jump should start at where his blade is pointing in that picture at the start of his t-push off

No, the first picture is showing where he's about to start taking off. His free foot starts swinging forward right after that point. Obviously this should be understood.

The point being, he's clearly not starting the take off at some point beyond where his skate is facing the side board. I already anticipated some people might try to claim his foot is starting past the side board, when that is not case.
 
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