Ways to improve SC's selection of junior skaters for competitions

[blue dog]

(I stole the idea from Sylvia, who suggested it in the JW thread--thanks Sylvia!)

From what I've read, Skate Canada has a different way of selecting junior ladies skaters for competitions like Junior Worlds, JGP, and B-level competitions. Some have said that the alternates for JW can land the 3Z 1% of the time, but bomb 99% of the time not only on that jump but easier jumps as well. Can Skate Canada improve its selection criteria? Should it copy the USFS method of using summer competitions to select which skaters should go to JGP?

 

[chuckm]

The USFS bases JGP selection for the first half of the JGP on placement at US Nationals, both Juniors and age-eligible Seniors. Other assignments are awarded based in part on performance in summer competitions. However, the types of jumps landed doesn't enter into the selection criteria.

It boggles my mind that Skate Canada selects skaters (mostly Seniors) based on whether they 'have' the big jumps (where they've been landed---in practice or in competition---doesn't seem to be an issue). The problem is that most of these skaters can't and don't land lutz and/or flip consistently in competition. As a result, when they compete in the JGP, for the most part their results aren't good. Skate Canada won no Ladies medals at all last season, and the closest anyone came was three 4th places by Myriane Samson and Charlotte Belair, both of whom turned 19 in September. Belair didn't even qualify to skate at Canadian Nationals 2008.

 

[fumie_fumie]

After watching novice and pre-novice competitions, it is more obvious to me that Skate Canada's selection process doesn't really make sense.

We have a new crop of promising novice/pre-novice ladies with the jump arsenals that will match those of most seniors at Nationals. Skate Canada needs to keep an eye on the development of novice-level ladies and then decide over the summer. We don't want to/can't afford to make the same mistake of sending the national senior/international junior ladies who consistently implode in international competitions and lose more berths.

 

[nadster]

Can Skate Canada improve its selection criteria? Should it copy the USFS method of using summer competitions to select which skaters should go to JGP?

Well actually SC does use summer sectional competitions as a criteria for the last few slots.

The problem is the quality of those competitions is sadly lacking.

In the bigger sections, the skaters are separated into groups, with no final skate where the best skaters face off against each other. Because we don't have a situation where the best skaters face each other, we have what I call these "diluted fields" where maybe only 1 or 2 skaters can even land a triple jump and the rest of the field would struggle to land a double axel ( and sometimes miss easier doubles as well). A potential JGP - bound skater does not get the test of the pressure of being surrounded by skaters that can beat them in competition, hence an inflated score at these competitions does not show how well they compete under the pressure of being in a quality field. A great example of a skater who scores well in a weak quality field is Diane Szmiiett. She often scores 127 and change in the Western Ontario summer competition. Most Western Ontario skaters usually prefer to compete in Thornhill so Diane faces very little and poor competition. She struggles to crack 100 in international competition though and bombed at nationals this year so that is an indication that she struggles once she is surrounded by better skaters.

Now Thornhill used to have finals where the best faced off against each other in a free-skate final but dropped it a few years ago. The result is that Thornhill is now a 4 day competition instead of a 5 day one so there is reason to believe ice rental costs were an issue for the COS section. The other reason is that I think COS thinks ( wrongly in my opinion) that with the new judging system the raw scores from each group is enough data for assessing skaters and therefore there is no need for finals. I think you must have finals so that the top skaters can be assessed under the same judging panel and more importantly so that our top skaters get more experience of competing under pressure.

In Canada , our dance teams tend to go to Lake Placid in droves. Our best men tend to concentrate in Thornhill and our best pairs tend to concentrate in Quebec. Therefore you have far more strength vs strength competitions for the most part in other disciplines.

There is no similar concentration of our ladies. And we don't send any potential JGP-bound ladies to competitions like Detroit or LIberty where they would experience a far more competitive atmosphere ( and hence a far better place for assessing our skaters in a summer competition).

 

[nadster]

After watching novice and pre-novice competitions, it is more obvious to me that Skate Canada's selection process doesn't really make sense.

We have a new crop of promising novice/pre-novice ladies with the jump arsenals that will match those of most seniors at Nationals. Skate Canada needs to keep an eye on the development of novice-level ladies and then decide over the summer. We don't want to/can't afford to make the same mistake of sending the national senior/international junior ladies who consistently implode in international competitions and lose more berths.

fumie_fumie.

You make a lot of sense. Actually a lot of our seniors would struggle to beat our top pre-novice skaters.

We don't only have to select the right ladies but we have to prepare them properly so they are less likely to be spooked at a competition. They must be exposed to much tougher summer competitions than they get at the present.

Also sad to say, we do have to look at our training methods as well. Far too often we see novice ( or in some cases pre-novice ) medalists with consistent triple toe a salchow who don't gain any more jumps after 2 years of competing at the junior level. Even worse is that during their junior stint, they tend to lose consistency on the toe and salchow as well. They usually come out as seniors who would struggle to make it through challenges.

 

[fumie_fumie]

I guess Samson is out there to prove our point at Junior Worlds. As much as I like her, I think she just peaked. Honestly, I've seen better skates from our pre-novice ladies at our junior nationals than her SP at Junior worlds. Yes, she landed her 3 lutz, but she always hesitates on the take-off and landing is not necessary clean either. So, after all this negative GOE, what's left?

Samson is the best of all our mature junior ladies, though.

 

[nadster]

I will use chuckm's quote from another thread. This is in response to the JW short program results.

What good is getting an extra slot if all it is used for is to send to the JGP Seniors who can't land jumps and will age out quickly?

Skate Canada MUST develop its younger skaters, and that means sending them to the international events. No, they won't bring home medals at first (and anyway, the Seniors haven't brought home any medals either). But they need the experience and they need to be developed as skaters.

Totally agree, but knowing Skate Canada the first skaters to get JGP slots next season will be Kang, Tisluk and Szmiett. All 3 have had ample opportunities to prove themselves and have gone on to implode regularly. In fact our top 2 in junior ladies at nationals, Kelsey McNeil and Vanessa Grenier, outscored all those three at nationals but sadly will be put lower on the JGP totem poll. Scarier is the fact that our top 7 junior ladies all outscored Kang at nationals.

I agree an extra slot is of use only if SC uses them correctly. That means looking at our top novice, junior ( and in some cases pre-novice ) skaters for selection and not continuing with the same old tired and tested failures. It is not like our young ones would do any worse than the likes of Kang, Tisluk and Szmiett anyway given that those 3 are just as likely to just implode.

Some other notes wrt the short program.

The cutoff to make it to the free skate was 39.82. Samson's score was 44.73

It is interesting to see how the short program scores compared to each other.
Using the results at Canadians here are some SP scores of various senior , junior and novice ladies.

Senior

Samson - 54.88 - she was perfectly clean in the short at nationals compared to her lutz problem at JW.

Szmiett ( our first alternate ) - 42.35 - popped the lutz combo to 2Z + 2T and scratchy 3T landing. Given that she can't do a triple loop ( she did not try any loop jump in her long so you can't say she popped it ) , she would have to do a double loop instead of the 3T in the short. Given nationals inflation and her inconsistency in shorts ( she was 18th in the short at challenges and only a semi-decent long ensured she could get to Canadians), there was a high chance that had she represented Canada at JW this year, she wouldn't qualify for the long.

Tisluk ( our second alternate) - 49.06 - landed a nice 3F combo and had scratchy landings on 2A and 3R. Usually a decent short program skater but normally implodes in the long ( often with at least 3 falls) based on nationals and previous JGP outings. Most likely would have made it to the long but also likely to finish 24th overall with a disastorous free skate.

Junior

Our junior ladies winner Kelsey McNeil scored 43.33 . She had 3T+2T , 2A and 2R all with near 0 GOE. She certainly would do better than Szmiett in the short and her 3T and 3S are reasonably consistent. Except for her level 2 layback , all her elements are level 3 and 4. A much better choice than either Szmiett or Tisluk as alternate to Samson.

I won't go on about all our other top junior ladies because for the most part , you can say the same thing. Some prefer the 3S to the 3T in the short and that is the only difference.

Novice

Alexandra Najarro - ( winner of novice ladies ) scored 40.86 in the short program. She also has a consistent toe and salchow . In fact she had these in pre-novice last year ( she won pre-novice ladies the year before). Given the lower multipliers for PCS at novice level, she certainly also looks better than the likes of Szmiett , Kang and Tisluk. Her total national score is 103.04. The fact that she has won both pre-novice and novice ladies in back to back years also shows consistency, something sadly lacking among the ladies SC has given JGPS to.

I'll post again when the JW ladies long is completed.

 

[fumie_fumie]

I think I was a way too harsh on Myriane.

She earned 2 spots for Canadian ladies. Best ever showing of all the Canadian junior ladies in many years. Thank you Myriane.

 

[nadster]

I think I was a way too harsh on Myriane.

She earned 2 spots for Canadian ladies. Best ever showing of all the Canadian junior ladies in many years. Thank you Myriane.

Agreed , and personally I had no problems sending Samson to JW because clearly was our best hope. Had she skated a better short she might even have given us the 16 JGP slots. As it is we got 8 slots which is an increase from 7 this year but a far cry from 16.

Hopefully Samson will do well enough at Nebelhorn so that SC will want to give her a Skate Canada slot next season.

Most of my beefs were with SC was that the 2 alternate slots were given to Szmiett and Tisluk despite the fact that both bombed at nationals and they can't say they've had good results in the past on the JGP even though they've both had chances over the last few years. Both of them scored less than our top 2 junior ladies at nationals ( and the junior ladies can't do the extra spin).

SC's choice of alternates sends the wrong message that consistency is not a concern. Based on the alternate choice , I fear that 3 slots will be wasted again on Szmiett, Kang and Tisluk. :banging: Those 3 have bombed both at the national level and internationally quite consistently.

Anyway , here is my wishlist for giving JGP assignments.

1. Consistency being preferred over landing a big jump 1% of the time. People who consistently implode at competitions (especially national or international ones) should not be chosen.

2. Assignments based on summer competition should be based on competitions with quality fields, not fields where the rest of the skaters would struggle to land a double axel on a good day. That of course means we need our skaters to skate tougher competitions in the summer. That means event finals in our local competitions and/or sending our skaters to the US .

3. Nationals and quality summer competition should be the ONLY methods of getting JGP slots.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Good news is Kang is no longer junior eligible.

I am thinking of compiling our suggestions and forward it to SC high performance director Mike. US figure skating association produces top-tier junior ladies like an assembly line. Skate Canada should be able to learn from our neighbour's expertise and experience. If men, pairs and dance teams are on par with US counterparts, why can't the ladies be?

I'll come back to you, once my coursework is done. .

 

[nadster]

Good news is Kang is no longer junior eligible.

Unfortunately you are wrong. As of July 1, 2008 , Kang will be 18 years old. She doesn't turn 19 until October 20. Because of the late birthday , she still has one JGP season left. Hopefully SC doesn't pick her but I am afraid they will.

 

[Mathman]

Whew! I've never heard of Kang, Szmiet or Tisluk, but it sounds like they are well on their way to challenging Mira Leung as the most dispised person in Canada.

 

[Winnipeg]

Whew! I've never heard of Kang, Szmiet or Tisluk, but it sounds like they are well on their way to challenging Mira Leung as the most dispised person in Canada.

Mira despised? I wasn't aware of that..............maybe her mom but not Mira......after all, i'm hoping she will place high enough in combo with Joannie to earn 3 spots for 03.....:yes::yes:


BTW, Sandu was a skater who disppointed many Canadian fans way too many times................

 

[laceup]

Whew! I've never heard of Kang, Szmiet or Tisluk, but it sounds like they are well on their way to challenging Mira Leung as the most dispised person in Canada.

I think dispise is a harsh word. Mira is not well liked by the people in my skating circle. She does not do this beautiful sport any favours with her horrible jumping technique, her sloppy skating and unwillingness to find a nice dress (that fits), put on some pretty makeup and do up her messy hair. However, we don't dispise her. As for the rest of the above mentioned skaters ... disappointment in the fact that they can't put two good programs together in one competition is the issue here. They have all shown moments of great talent (such as Szmiet at Senior Challenge - 18th in short - 1st in long). But these moments are just that, moments, there is no consistency, which is what Canada needs to find in their ladies !!!!

 

[redhotcoach]

Whew! I've never heard of Kang, Szmiet or Tisluk, but it sounds like they are well on their way to challenging Mira Leung as the most dispised person in Canada.

Not at all, mathman. It's just that Kathryn Kang has received far more than her share of international assignments over the past five years -- even when she didn't even make the top ten at Canadians in Junior - she was given internationals ahead of those skaters who placed in the top 5. She's had NACS, JGP's and other internationals - and still is not consistent at national competitions. Certainly she has had her turn. Erika Tisluk, on the other hand, was injured last season and is still young - only 16 - so give her a chance to get some experience internationally and see what happens. As for Diane Szmiett - I agree that she is really overscored at home at times. However, when she is hot she is great!

There are a few other choices SC has made for assignments in the past, that have taken skaters who couldn't qualify for nationals and given them choice JGP substitute roles or in the days of NACS - given them a spot where they did poorly - instead of using the spots to reward skaters who brought it to nationals.

 

[nadster]

Here are some competitive histories of Kang , Tisluk and Szmiett.

Tisluk finished 15th at 2007 Canadian senior nationals and 12th this year. . She got a substitute slot for a JGP this year. The nationals she missed was the 2006 nationals. She was novice champion in 2005. What really scared me was her deer in the headlights look before the long at nationals this year. Even my mother ( who had never seen Tisluk before ) said she was going to bomb. She did however get a JGP in 2005 where she finished 22nd with a total score ( SP +FS) of 81.20. She also had a JGP in 2006 where she finished 8th with a total score of 96.15.

The situation with Szmiett is that when she is competing in a weak field she really shines ( like Western Ontario summer competitions). When she won juniors in 2006, she won in a relatively weak field and skated brilliantly . Stefani Marotta, finished 2nd in that junior competition and she failed to make it out of the qualifying skate at 2007 nationals and looks like she quit this year. The problem is that Szmiett always struggles when competing in a strong field like a JGP or even nationals. Considering Szmiett lives only a 2 hour drive from Detroit, it is too bad that she never chose to compete there in the summer where she would get the experience of competing against quality competition. Those experiences could have been valuable in the JW assignment in 2006 where she finished 21st and 3 JGP assignments she has had since where she finished 6th and 15th in 2006 and 9th in 2008. Her highest score at any junior international is 102.71 which is lower than the 24th place skater at JW this year.

The only reasons that Kang got a JGP is because she landed a lutz in the short in the 2007 junior ladies nationals and also because she scored around 118 in the BC summer competition ( one of the higher scores among JGP-age skaters in the summer). Yes she finished 11th in that 2007 junior competition simply because she popped oodles of jumps into singles in the long after skating a very good short. She has had 4 JGP assignments thus far and her results were a 5th and 19th in 2005, an 18th in 2006 and a 7th place this season. Her highest total has been 114.93 but she has had scores of 79.00 and 79.65 as well.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Kang

I think Kang got more than her fair share of international assignments for her baby ballerina quality, as Skate Canada seems to prefer ballerinas (i.e. Kang, Amanda Billings) over athletic jumpers.

However, they just don't realize world-class female skaters from Canada have been so far athletic types who started off as solid technicians and later evolved into total packages. By looking at the profiles of top notch ladies from Canada - the Great Karen Magnussen, Liz Manley, Josée Chouinard and Joannie Rochette, Skate Canada should get the idea what quality we should look for in our future champions.

 

[chuckm]

One thing I do not understand: Canada didn't send any entries to the Aegon Challenge Cup, in progress this week.

There are several categories: Debs (Pre-Novice), Novice, Junior and Senior. The US sent skaters in every category except Debs and Senior Men.

This would have been an excellent opportunity for Canada's Novice and Junior skaters to gain some international experience, but where are they? We know most of the Juniors won't get any JGP assignments, but why not send them to these end-of-season International "B" events? If any of them do well in their categories, then give them a JGP slot.

 

[Sylvia]

I just checked the Skate Canada website, and the last time Skate Canada sent out skaters to a spring developmental event was Triglav Trophy in April 2006. In the spring of 2005, Skate Canada sent skaters to 3 spring competitions -- 2 junior pairs were sent to Triglav, and singles skaters to Copenhagen Trophy and Mladost Trophy. This season, four novice/junior singles skaters were sent to Merano Cup in October 2007: http://www.skatecanada.ca/en/news_views/press_room/news_releases/2007/oct9_2.cfm
Are budget cuts one (the main?) reason that Skate Canada has reduced their assignments to these international developmental events?

 

[nadster]

Unfortunately, budget cuts do have to do with why Canada hasn't been sending anyone to these spring B events. I know that even finals in summer competitions have been cut due to budget

It seems that the only junior/novice B international we send people to is Merano cup in the fall which has a much weaker field than theAegon Challenge Cup.

Also SC also has a placement goal for these types of competitions that 80% of Canadian skaters sent there should finish in the top 5. SC makes these goals by often sending skaters to the weaker-field internationals.

Our ladies need exposure to strong fields.

Why can't SC learn from the ice dance program , where so many ice dancers compete in Lake Placid in droves. Crone/Poirier , Asher/Hill , Lenko/Islam and McCurdy/Coreno ( as well as countless others ) all competed in Lake Placid this year. They get that exposure to strong fields . When a couple does well there, the USFSA writes up about them ( like they did Crone/Poirier this year). Certainly a positive USFSA writeup about a non-American dance team would raise the eyebrows of the judging community internationally which certainly will help them internationally.

Similarly Patrick Chan got a similar writeup when he competed in Liberty this year.

Even with the budget cuts, we certainly could send skaters to Liberty and/or Detroit. There is no reason why the skaters who train in Western Ontario especially can't go to Detroit.