Skate Canada to allow any 2 athletes to compete together in ice dance, pairs

[mrrice]

While I think this will take some time, I certainly don't think it's unattainable. In Dance we have an "All Male" Division that is quite popular. I'd like to know if they plan on having "Divisions" such as all male pair, and all Ladies Pairs. Same with dance. These are the "All Male" Champions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCxywdEfX6Y

 

[4everchan]

Skate Canada is not about to create new divisions in pairs and dance.. quite the opposite. This is about inclusion of all teams into the same group for domestic events.

 

[mrrice]

Skate Canada is not about to create new divisions in pairs and dance.. quite the opposite. This is about inclusion of all teams into the same group for domestic events.

Then I can see this becoming a problem. An all male Pair Team where BOTH skaters were capable of 3A's would have a HUGE advantage. How many Co-Ed Pairs have done SBS 3 A's in Competition? An all male pair team could pull that off with no problem. If they keep them in the same divisions, I think you'll see some backlash. Co-Ed Pairs, and Same Sex pairs in separate divisions. I don't see a problem with that.
I just had a thought......Patrick Chan and Jeffrey Buttle.......If this would get you two back on the ice, I promise to go to every event.

 

[TontoK]

Then I can see this becoming a problem. An all male Pair Team where BOTH skaters were capable of 3A's would have a HUGE advantage. How many Co-Ed Pairs have done SBS 3 A's in Competition? An all male pair team could pull that off with no problem. If they keep them in the same divisions, I think you'll see some backlash. Co-Ed Pairs, and Same Sex pairs. I don't see a problem with that.

Now we're getting to the heart of the matter.

In a combined discipline, and if you don't want a situation in which a traditional man/woman couple will not be competitive, you'll have to limit the moves that pairs can do (limiting growth in the discipline) or weight the skills differently depending on the makeup of the pair (making things "equal" by making things "not equal.").

 

[4everchan]

@TontoK and @mrrice

The new framework is not about changing the discipline and/or giving an advantage à la Blades of Glory type of deal.

It's about inclusion of all gender identities. It's mostly semantics but very meaningful for those concerned. It's not about creating a distortion of the sport.

In Canada, as mentioned earlier by @CanadianSkaterGuy , a man with a triple axel will most likely compete in singles. As a matter of fact, there are quite a few men without a 3a nor quads who qualified for Nationals.

Also, it is important again to mention that 2 men skating together would have a lot of issues with flexibility and line. Don't forget the not so elegant and extremely difficult positions women have to take when lifted, with blade grabs and so on. The Code of points for pairs has been modeled to reflect the elements performed by traditional pairs. Lifts being the highest scoring elements, as long of the code of points remain the same, the best teams will remain the "traditional" man and wowan partnership. Again, some teams even do double jumps and manage to earn big points as their lifts and twist are dominant.

IF ever, and I put IF in capital letters because redefining the discipline is NOT the aim of this new inclusion, there were a will to modify the pairs event and allowing different types of pairing in international competitions, there would most likely be a different code of points. For instance, as mentioned again earlier, women may not be able to do overhead lifts : the code of points would have to take that into account. I suspect that some elements would be common to all 3 types of teams, while others would be optional.

We have seen how ice dance has used the Choreo moves with a fixed base value for all teams, but with very diverse GOE applied to it. I suspect that the discipline could go in that direction.... I also suspect that most of us will never witness this. And I also suspect that it would be quite confusing for fans and that the ISU will never do that

Again, this is about inclusion of all gender identities in the definition of what a team is. It doubt it will ever affect elite skating other than giving the opportunity to young skaters to develop partner skills and to non-binary skaters like Leduc for instance to compete without being called the "Man or Male partner".

 

[kenboy123]

It's just a start. For change to happen, it has to begin somewhere. One small step by Skate Canada, one giant leap for progressive change in figure skating!

I suppose, I don’t see it happening internationally yet anyways, but…let’s say in a few years, an ice dance team that is two guys for example is good enough to skate internationally…it won’t work even then until all figure skating powerhouses allowed this…can you imagine China or Russia allowing this ever???

 

[TontoK]

@TontoK and @mrrice

The new framework is not about changing the discipline and/or giving an advantage à la Blades of Glory type of deal.

It's about inclusion of all gender identities. It's mostly semantics but very meaningful for those concerned. It's not about creating a distortion of the sport.


Again, this is about inclusion of all gender identities in the definition of what a team is. It doubt it will ever affect elite skating other than giving the opportunity to young skaters to develop partner skills and to non-binary skaters like Leduc for instance to compete without being called the "Man or Male partner".

I'm not sure where you're getting your interpretation.

The plain language of the policy announcment, at least as reported in the OP article: Canada's governing body of figure skating announced Tuesday that its definition of "team" for athletes training in the Podium Pathway will be revised to consisting of "two skaters."

Further: Skate Canada said in a tweet that there are no new event categories, and any team can enter the pair or ice dance disciplines at any Skate Canada domestic event.

"Two skaters" and "any team" do not sound like they're discussing semantic issues relating to non-binary athletes.

 

[el henry]

I’m starting to get befuddled and bemused. Let’s talk just pairs, since it should be obvious that an all women ice dance team could do it all.

1. Who cares if two men can do 4Lzs side by side? that’s not what pair skating is, and I hope to heaven never will be.

2. I’m old enough to remember when pairs were *not* “big giant lifting partner“ throws “little tiny non lifting partner.” Protopopovs anyone? Those pairs were a joy to watch.

3. maybe this will lead to inclusion of women who are great skaters but “too tall” or “too muscular” to skate singles as currently constituted. If you think there are no women who can throw or lift, really? I mean really?

and sometimes people tell me I need to get with the program and accept skating “progress”.

 

[4everchan]

I'm not sure where you're getting your interpretation.

The plain language of the policy announcment, at least as reported in the OP article: Canada's governing body of figure skating announced Tuesday that its definition of "team" for athletes training in the Podium Pathway will be revised to consisting of "two skaters."

Further: Skate Canada said in a tweet that there are no new event categories, and any team can enter the pair or ice dance disciplines at any Skate Canada domestic event.

"Two skaters" and "any team" do not sound like they're discussing semantic issues relating to non-binary athletes.

They are discussing inclusion and diversity. It's clear from the article included in the OP where Skate Canada's president Karen Butcher describes the change. This opens up all sorts of discussion but I believe the main objective is to make the sport equally accessible to all.

"By updating the definition of team, many individuals in the figure skating community in Canada will have new opportunities to embrace the sport," Karen Butcher, president of Skate Canada, said in a statement. "This change is about removing barriers to participation in skating, and we believe it will have a significant impact in ensuring all gender identities are recognised and accepted equally and without prejudice.

"This change has been collectively endorsed by Skate Canada and will allow for new and exciting partnerships in the pair and ice dance disciplines to compete at the national level. Skate Canada is privileged to continue the advancement of skating in Canada by making rule and policy change that allows everyone to experience the joy of skating."

And from Weaver's words.

"Ice dance is my passion, and although beautifully steeped in tradition, the future of our sport depends on looking critically and assertively at who and who is not represented," said Kaitlyn Weaver, a two-time Olympian and a member of Skate Canada's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion and Accessibility Operating Committee.

 

[TontoK]

But @4everchan it's one thing to interpret something and a different thing to read the policy.

Your interpretation is not what the policy says.

Two skaters. Any team.

And I'm not the only one reading the policy in a straightforward manner... or why would other contributors be discussing two-female ice dance teams?

And for the record, I'd watch Madison and Gabby do an ice dance exhibition. That would be great. But how do you think they'd fare if they were competing against the team of Guillaume and Zack? Would the two teams be equally matched in speed, power, ice coverage, etc?

 

[4everchan]

But @4everchan it's one thing to interpret something and a different thing to read the policy.

Your interpretation is not what the policy says.

Two skaters. Any team.

And I'm not the only one reading the policy in a straightforward manner... or why would other contributors be discussing two-female ice dance teams?

And for the record, I'd watch Madison and Gabby do an ice dance exhibition. That would be great. But how do you think they'd fare if they were competing against the team of Guillaume and Zack? Would the two teams be equally matched in speed, power, ice coverage, etc?

I am reading the article as it is. I am not the one bringing visionary quad sbs jumping in this thread Policy comes with context. It is part of a whole movement in Canada to make sport more inclusive and less toxic. I believe the words of Butcher and Weaver provide this context which feeds my understanding . There is a policy and then, there is how it translates in reality.

 

[TontoK]

I am reading the article as it is. I am not the one bringing visionary quad sbs jumping in this thread Policy comes with context. It is part of a whole movement in Canada to make sport more inclusive and less toxic. I believe the words of Butcher and Weaver provide this context which feeds my understanding . There is a policy and then, there is how it translates in reality.

We will see soon enough.

There are probably two little Canadian girls who can't find two little boys, and they're planning to pair up right now. They'll be applying to enter an obscure beginner competition in just a bit.

If they're in, then I'm right. If they're denied, then you are.

 

[4everchan]

We will see soon enough.

There are probably two little Canadian girls who can't find two little boys, and they're planning to pair up right now. They'll be applying to enter an obscure beginner competition in just a bit.

If they're in, then I'm right. If they're denied, then you are.

Why would i be wrong... it is an option that i even mentioned in the thread to develop partnering skills at younger ages, without the hassle of finding a male parter ... i have mentioned this as well in the thread. The nuance i am making is about elite sport.

 

[TontoK]

Why would i be wrong... it is an option that i even mentioned in the thread to develop partnering skills at younger ages, without the hassle of finding a male parter ... i have mentioned this as well in the thread. The nuance i am making is about elite sport.

Why would you have a nuanced difference about about whether the competition is at an elite level? Skate Canada doesn't make any distinction.

Skate Canada said in a tweet that there are no new event categories, and any team can enter the pair or ice dance disciplines at any Skate Canada domestic event.

 

[TontoK]

By the way, for benefit of the board in general, since we've been having this back-and-forth:

I have no personal beef with @4everchan whom I have long admired for knowledge and insight into the sport we both love.

We simply have a disagreement about what the policy actually means, and also about whether it will be a benefit to the sport in the long term.

Friends can disagree. In this case, we do. On most other things, we don't.

 

[4everchan]

Why would you have a nuanced difference about about whether the competition is at an elite level? Skate Canada doesn't make any distinction.

Skate Canada said in a tweet that there are no new event categories, and any team can enter the pair or ice dance disciplines at any Skate Canada domestic event.

Because skate canada mentions domestic events and it is clear to me that athletes who wish to compete internationally, or what would be elite skaters, will most likely find a traditional pairing...

Adding to clarify.

I think Leduc's case is an example of what this policy achieves : allowing a competitive elite athlete in what looks like a "traditional" team to compete as a non-binary athlete, thus getting recognized as such. So in this case, it's semantics mostly to promote inclusion and diversity. Nothing changes on the ice but the skater doesn't have to go under a specific gender label they do not feel comfortable with.

The other options are :

1)Young girls (and boys but as we know, chances are that the boys would find a girl partner) wishing to pick up partnering skills in either dance or pairs. The difference here, is that they will be allowed to compete in domestic events. Will they place well or high enough to make it to nationals? I think it's possible up to a certain point in pairs... and possible in dance perhaps even with senior skaters. However, what I believe may happen is that the best athletes may evolve to new "traditional" partnerships when they are identified as being able to get further within the sport. The athletes that are driven to compete internationally, and that happens fairly young will have to find a "traditional" partner. So I would see this as a developmental opportunity. There may be some non-trad teams that decide to stick together because they truly enjoy working together, but they will plateau eventually in terms of what is possible to achieve, simply because the code of points is not designed to favour them and the ISU is most likely not going to go that route.

The objective here is developing skills and allowing for more participation throughout the country. In smaller areas, it may be more difficult to find a partner, so that opens up a variety of possibilities.

2) Some skaters exploring their gender identity may want to be part of a non-gender based team. The proportion of non-binary or transgender people in Canada is 1/ 300. ( 0,33 %) This number is for 15 years and older (Census 2022). This will allow them to form unconventional teams they feel comfortable with and still be able to compete domestically, whether that team is made of one or two non-binary members. Again, a question of equity, diversity and inclusion. It is more about the people than the sport itself, which goes with the culture change seen throughout sport in Canada... people first, sport second.

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I believe that what has been mentioned in this thread, focusing on same sex partnerships and their respective pros and cons, is not the reason why Skate Canada has updated its policy, and if it may happen for various reason, it will not produce elite teams due to the current code of points.

At one point, a talented skater with potential may want to get international assignments and get funded. In order to do so, they will evolve to a traditional partnership if they were not in one... just like some skaters opt to do pairs or ice dance because they have more affinity and/or potential doing so than competing in singles, or just like some skaters switch partners because their current partnership is stalling.

What Scott Moir mentioned is interesting though. These new options will provide different "artistic" possibilities. It may fuel some more creativity into the discipline and that may also have a positive effect on "traditional" partnerships.

I apologize for the wall of text. I thought it may be a good idea to clarify what I think this really means in my humble opinion.

 

[4everchan]

And for the record, I'd watch Madison and Gabby do an ice dance exhibition. That would be great. But how do you think they'd fare if they were competing against the team of Guillaume and Zack? Would the two teams be equally matched in speed, power, ice coverage, etc?

But that's exactly the point none of these would be competing... as a matter of fact, none of these athletes are Canadian nor active at this moment. They could do exhibitions... and that would be great to watch and it already happens...

Since @mrrice mentioned Patrick and Jeff... well this is not ice dance, just single skaters next to one another... but it goes into what Scott was mentioning about more artistic possibilities... In this case, Jeff is Patrick's choreographer... they skate part of Patrick's program together... it is lovely


Time stamped here.. but if you want to watch Esqualo before, truly worth it.

 

[moonvine]

Actually I think it's the other way round? Unless the male non-lifting partner was reeeally small and light, the lifting partner would have to lift more weight than if his partner was a woman. Aren't most pair women really tiny?

In the end I don't think this is going to affect many people in practice, but it's great for those who for some reason or another don't fit the traditional categories.

Yes, most pair women are exceedingly tiny.

 

[mrrice]

I'm not sure where you're getting your interpretation.

The plain language of the policy announcment, at least as reported in the OP article: Canada's governing body of figure skating announced Tuesday that its definition of "team" for athletes training in the Podium Pathway will be revised to consisting of "two skaters."

Further: Skate Canada said in a tweet that there are no new event categories, and any team can enter the pair or ice dance disciplines at any Skate Canada domestic event.

"Two skaters" and "any team" do not sound like they're discussing semantic issues relating to non-binary athletes.

I think I'm going to wait until I see how this all plays out. I can't imagine how this will go over outside of Canada. I can imagine Coaches, Parents, and possibly sponsors will react.

But that's exactly the point none of these would be competing... as a matter of fact, none of these athletes are Canadian nor active at this moment. The could do exhibitions... and that would be great to watch and it already happens...

Since @mrrice mentioned Patrick and Jeff... well this is not ice dance, just single skaters next to one another... but it goes into what Scott was mentioning about more artistic possibilities... In this case, Jeff is Patrick's choreographer... they skate part of Patrick's program together... it is lovely


Time stamped here.. but if you want to watch Esqualo before, truly worth it.

My Heart!!!!!! Thank you so much for posting this. 2 World Champions having fun together.....

 

[4everchan]

I think I'm going to wait until I see how this all plays out. I can't imagine how this will go over outside of Canada. I can imagine Coaches, Parents, and possibly sponsors will react.

My Heart!!!!!! Thank you so much for posting this. 2 World Champions having fun together.....

I think sponsors may be quite happy about this as in Canada, equality, diversity and inclusion receive favourable public opinion and support... and that's what sponsors look for. As a matter of fact, the organizations touched by abuse in sport are losing their sponsors. Hockey Canada is one of them.... Coaches ? Some will be positive and proactive about it.. and some will probably not care much and not promote it... Parents : parents love their children and just want them to be happy... so whatever the needs are, they will be happy... And of course, anything that makes the training environment less toxic will be welcomed.

You are welcome... Jeff and Patrick are just special