2023 World Figure Skating Championships Men's Free Skate

[Jumping_Bean]

Reducing layout difficulty from what a skater can do with the usual statistical probability of failure on each jump reliably leads to only one thing: lower TES. There is simply no correlation between lower technical component and better PCS. Each jumping pass--be it quad, triple or double--has a probability of failure. Where Malinin sits, it looks like he is almost as likely to fail a triple as he does a quad. So, reducing his content for sure will drop his TES, will have unknown and unpredictable impact on his PCS, because even with 5 or 4 quads he will still be seen as a technician, not PCS-skater. And if he falls on a triple, he gets even lower score and probably a knee-jerk higher penalty in GoE for failure on triples.

I don't think most people are suggesting skaters reduce their technical content unless they consistently struggle with it (like Deniss with his 4S or Sasha Trusova with her 5 quad skates).

However, if other aspects lag behind your jumps, it's only right that scoring reflects that (including not just PCS, but also spins in some skaters' cases), and that might then mean losing against skaters who are a bit behind in TES but ahead in PCS. In Ilia's case, he doesn't have bad basics and he might have the chance at a long career (like a lot of the men) as long as he stays healthy, and as long as he and his coaches continue working on and devoting time to improving his PCS, he's not going to continue being in a situation like this, because the gap of his TES to the other skaters' TES will eventually outweigh the reverse PCS gap.

 

[skatedreamer]

omg that first picture...

Right? The 3rd one, too!

Aside from that, those stills are amazing. Kudos to the photographer!

 

[Arriba627]

I thought so because he looked almost gaunt compared to last year. I know that one of her biggest known attributes is that she wants her skaters to be painfully thin. While I do not approve it for either gender with men you need the extra weight because it in the muscles that allow you to jump high enough to get all the way around four times. When she makes a man lose so much weight it saps the strength that he needs. He needs to leave Eteri gain 15-20;pounds back and he feel the need to find another coach if he feels that is best for him because the results are not there to justify what he is doing to his long term health and career.

Agree, when I saw him in the 6minute warm up for the short, I barely recognized him. His coach probably has him overtraining which wouldn't come as a big surprise! Go back to Boston, Daniel.

 

[lariko]

I don't think most people are suggesting skaters reduce their technical content unless they consistently struggle with it (like Deniss with his 4S or Sasha Trusova with her 5 quad skates).

However, if other aspects lag behind your jumps, it's only right that scoring reflects that (including not just PCS, but also spins in some skaters' cases), and that might then mean losing against skaters who are a bit behind in TES but ahead in PCS. In Ilia's case, he doesn't have bad basics and he might have the chance at a long career (like a lot of the men) as long as he stays healthy, and as long as he and his coaches continue working on and devoting time to improving his PCS, he's not going to continue being in a situation like this, because the gap of his TES to the other skaters' TES will eventually outweigh the reverse PCS gap.

But there is zero guarantee that 'putting work' into PCS will increase PCS. No amount of work can increase what’s already there significantly, just like no amount of work can make Brown jump quads.

However, it will guarantee drop in technical part. Because to jump quads, one must train quads. I dunno why people keep treating jumps as easy or lazy or something. But stability Ilya has is drilled in by hours and huge effort.

Ilya with 6 quads and 4A is a marvel. Ilya with 4 quads and tiny but better PCS will be indistinguishable from that to the panels like we had in Japan. If he goes to 3 quads, he will be like 6th this year, because of the incomparable Mr. Brown and the guys with 1 or 2 quads who already score so high in PCS--and will continue to do so no matter what Ilya does. And he will then also face challenges from other 2 quad guys too if they manage to go clean (even Vasiljevs did on that one occasion). All the Japanese, both present and absent, will be in this category.

With this crazy layout, Ilya is special and has far better chance to medal. That same Cha has under-rotations and falls most of his skates. Ilya will never beat Uno, because one has to be born into it to skate like Uno. Yes, Ilya is American, so it helps, but if his number of quads is too close to average, he will be a top 10 skater, not a podium contender

 

[Fluture]

What a great finish to probably my favorite competition in a long time! So many clean performances and the podium (as is a theme for this Worlds, apparently) is just incredibly wholesome. Before going into the performances, I'd just like to note what a blessing this competition has been in terms of supportive camaraderie and deep respect between the competitors. I noted it in the women's thread already but it was just as evident with the men. One of my favorite quotes (from Shoma at the press conference about Ilia and Jun): "We don't need language, we just know that we like each other a lot." Who's cutting onions?

1. Shoma defended his title! I honestly didn't expect it after the practices he's had and with the injury too… huge respect for what he managed to do under the pressure. I must say, the last minute of his program is probably my favorite — the step sequence, followed with the two final spins just show his best qualities off so well. I'm glad Belinda noted the 4F, though because it always irks me seeing that jump, which is neither a real quad nor a flip, get like +4s across the board. Aside from that, a real champion's skate.

2. Jun Finally!!! And after such a difficult season to. I didn't dare to hope for even a medal after 4CC and disappointments on the GP and yet!!! He's only 21 (I had to check Wikipedia again because I couldn't believe it) but already made history multiple times and now once more. Earning three spots for South Korea, too, what a legend. Performance of the night for me. That opening 4S was just pure perfection —height, speed, flow, extension and right on the music too. Love every second of that program, too, especially the trademark Ina Bauer at the end.

3. I see many people surprised at Ilia dropping to third and must say I'm too — but in a good way. I never thought the judges would actually judge his PCS by what he put out on the ice but they did and that (plus the URs and other minor mistakes) made the difference. Really, there's a lot to be said about the technical side and it is mind-blowingly incredible but this is figure skating. Ilia, for all his technical skills, is still lacking severely on the components side and it's especially evident in a six quad program where there's not much space for anything else. That doesn't mean he can't get there, though. The basics are there, his spins especially are pretty nice. He seems to have a good attitude about it — said he'd focus on cleaning up his presentation for next season. Honestly, he's only 18, he has so many years ahead of him, this is only the start and yet he's already a World medalist. That's a huge success in itself.


4. Kevin's happy emotional outbursts are a highlight of every competition. What a character! Good for him — he had a hard couple of years.


5. From Mark and Belinda respectively: "Jason Brown — what skating wants. What the skating world wants." and "This is figure skating." Not much to add there, personally. Goosebumps, chills — I was tearing up about halfway through. Who needs a quad when you have this? No one spins a program together as seemlessly as he does, no one skates like him either. And Tracy's reaction in the K&C was just the cherry on top.

6. Kazuki has to be one of the best performers in the world right now. Loved every second of that program and I'll just pretend the fall didn't happen. Also, I saw so many doubting his inclusion in the worlds team after Nationals and to that I just want to say: why?! The guy has a track-record of performing at Worlds when it counts. He did it again here.

7. I shamelessly wanted Keegan to have a 4CC performance and win a medal here but it wasn't meant to be. I was still crying about halfway through lol. Really don't want him to retire but I understand why and honestly — winning his first ISU championship medal in his last season is incredible.

I was also really happy for Lukas, what a season he's had. Adam and Matteo had redemption skates and Deniss was his usual amazing self. I could watch his step sequences all day. The top 11 + Deniss were just great. From the earlier groups, Andreas Nordeback also really stood out to me, he has a lot of potential. And of course, good for Litvintsev to have clean skates, too.

Outside of the skating, I have to say I very much enjoyed Mark and Belinda's commentary, especially Belinda's occasional honest, but polite jabs. My favorites have to be on Morisi's quad "toe" — I burst out laughing several times. Some favorites: "It is … (pause) a quad jump", "It is a jump that's called a quad toe but there is. no. toe. action", "it's not a toeloop and it's not actually a salchow either — it's a Morisi jump" lol. And, unrelated, but her obsession with Kaori's 2A speed was absolutely hilarious. Great duo, hope they'll comment more events together next season.

Amazing event, and as a viewer, I'm leaving this Worlds feeling very happy overall. Can't remember the last time this happened, though Worlds 2022 comes close.

 

[el henry]

It's not fair to Ilia to compare him to Christopher Bowman in terms of being a "rebel". Christopher had an undiagnosed mental illness (bipolar disorder) that he was likely self medicating to try to manage. He had a lot of problems that Ilia does not have.

Agreed. Christopher Bowman faced many challenges in his life. In addition (not necessarily relevant) Christopher was a natural showman, hence his nickname, which Ilia is not.

Jumping off, Ilia is not some sort of rebel for playing the IJS system, in fact he is being quite precise and by the book in playing that system.

IMO, he will not win with 18 quads unless he improves presentation, which has nothing to do with his personality or reputation. It has to do with in the men’s field, judges do like balance. IMO they may still unduly favor rotations over other aspects of skating, but rotations alone won’t get you gold.

I think with the right choreo Ilia could make a bigger impact. Kaori worked hard to master Rohene Ward choreo, there is no reason Ilia could not do likewise.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

But there is zero guarantee that 'putting work' into PCS will increase PCS. No amount of work can increase what’s already there significantly, just like no amount of work can make Brown jump quads.

If you put work into something and don't improve, you're doing something wrong. And in that case, while very sad for a skater to try very hard but not succeed, judging should still reflect the current state of a skater's ability, and that might mean losing to other skaters who are more balanced.

If you're worried about judges not rewarding improvements, I can't exactly fault you, considering the track record across the last few years. Past experience does however also tell us that if Ilia remains somewhat consistent, his PCS are likely to go up regardless of improvement.

And if he were to not work on his PCS and just focus on the quads, then that's his choice. But then people also can't complain if he happened to lose because of his PCS, that's just the way things would be.

However, it will guarantee drop in technical part. Because to jump quads, one must train quads. I dunno why people keep treating jumps as easy or lazy or something. But stability Ilya has is drilled in by hours and huge effort.

Ilia is not spending all of his hours on quads every single day. He might not spend as much time on skating skills or complex choreography as Jason, or Kevin, or other high PCS skaters, but even that time adds up over the years. With the right (and consistent) coaching, PCS generally tend to improve as skaters get older (unless a skater used to put a lot of effort and time into training skating skills and then stops doing that because of upping jump difficulty, or because of injury/illness, or if skaters are actually not being coached well).

 

[skatesofgold]

Sorry to be so blunt, but the fact you’ve been watching figure skating since the days of Tara Lipinski and by your own admission can’t spot a deep edge means you’ve wasted a lot of precious time on an interest that may not be for you.

Re. the competition, my only complaint is that Uno’s inflated GOEs propelled him to the title over Cha, who should have won the FS at least. Don’t know what people who think Malinin was robbed are smoking. His jumps were messy, his program content was non-existent and his skating and performance skills were mediocre. Maybe he’ll improve in time, as many Americans seem to be trying to convince themselves, but comparing him to Jason Brown, Keegan Messing, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, etc. is pure copium. These skaters all had their struggles early on, it’s true, but their skating fundamentals and performance quality were outstanding from the start. If you don’t have those things by 18, they’re not going to appear by 24; we’re talking about skills that are acquired in childhood.

That said, Malinin could make some improvement in those areas for sure, like Nathan Chen, Boyang Jin, etc. did. I just wouldn’t set my expectations too high. But what he really needs to focus on is optimising his jump layouts, cleaning up tech and consistency issues & preventing injuries. Big jumps will always be his calling card, and if he wants to rely on them so heavily, they need to be flawless, which they haven’t been this season.

But I like figure skating more than I like other sports, with the exception of gymnastics. Just because my reasons for enjoying the sport are different than yours doesn't mean I'm wasting my time or that I'm not a fan. I feel exhilarated when I see a difficult jump or combination landed or a program with perfectly landed jumps and god knows figure skating has increased my knowledge of music, which is also one of my favorite things. I also like seeing different dance styles in ice dancing and interesting positions on lifts in pairs. I also like interesting transitions, which is one of the few things I do understand about PCS. It's why I loved Matt Savoie.

 

[lariko]

If you put work into something and don't improve, you're doing something wrong. And in that case, while very sad for a skater to try very hard but not succeed, judging should still reflect the current state of a skater's ability, and that might mean losing to other skaters who are more balanced.

I feel that balance is not there atm, PCS is definitely given more weight after last year's changes to 3 categories from 5. Ilya should have won on balance over Cha.

 

[apgold]

I went through a lot of tissues watching the top 6 skates on Youtube (with my Netherlands VPN, I'm starting to learn Dutch from the ads, lol) today.

From Kevin and Silvia's joyful dance when his scores came up as well as Jason and Tracy's reactions. Best coach and skater interactions of the event next to Riku and Ryuichi with Bruno Marcotte.

I am pleased with the results and while many will moan that Jun should have won since he went clean in both segments, Shoma is still the master of technical and artistry. Hard to believe he is now 25 and a two time world champ. I still remember a few seasons ago, how lost and broken Shoma was before he connected with Stephane. Jun was fabulous and I'm so glad he was able to skate both programs the way he wanted. Shae-Lynn really gave him 2 brilliant vehicles for his style. I hope he continues to work with her.

As for Ilia, I think the 3rd placement was fair. It gives him motivation to improve his components - it's still figure skating, not figure jumping. That said, seeing the 4A landed is always a thrill and the jump should have a higher BV. Also, his change in costume had Nathan vibes. I really did not like the original costume (too busy), so I didn't mind the new top.

Loved Kevin and Jason's clean performances -so thrilled for them and thanks to Jason for coming back and giving the US 3 spots for next year. I would love to see him in Montreal next year (as I'm planning to attend) so I hope he decides to continue if he wants.

Kazuki is so fun to watch - and despite 2 falls overall in his segments, he makes you forget about them with his joy of performing and the energy he always brings.

 

[Kris135]

But there is zero guarantee that 'putting work' into PCS will increase PCS. However, it will guarantee drop in technical part. Ilya with 6 quads and 4A is a marvel. Ilya with 4 quads and tiny but better PCS will be indistinguishable from that to the panels like we had in Japan. If he goes to 3 quads, he will be like 6th this year, because of the incomparable Mr. Brown and the guys with 1 or 2 quads who already score so high in PCS--and will continue to do so no matter what Ilya does. And he will then also face challenges from other 2 quad guys too if they manage to go clean (even Vasiljevs did on that one occasion). All the Japanese, both present and absent, will be in this category. With this layout, he is special and has far better chance to medal. That same Cha has under-rotations and falls most of his skates. Ilya will never beat Uno, because one has to be born into it to skate like Uno. Yes, Ilya is American, so it helps, but if his number of quads is average, he will be a top 10 skater, not a podium contender

Ilia is the the quad king right now. He might start working on Quint's this summer. His tech lead is out of this world. But his Achilles heel is that PCS number so yes he does have to work on it. Nathan early in his career did 6-7 quads in a program as he got older and he stated finding what artistic style worked best the PCS went up and the number of quads came down some. That what happens and Ilia could bring down the number of quads and still have a huge Tech advantage because of the difficulty of the quads he does. No else can do a quad Axel and no one else in the top group was doing a quad Lutz so does he really need to do 7 quads in program to prove the point that he is the "quadgod". Every skater's style is different and he has very good basic skating skills he just needs to very good choreographer to bring his own unique style onto the ice. I think this year allow Ilia to pick which choreographer he wants to work with and give him the creative control over this aspect of his skating because he really clicks with one that may be the one that he works with for his entire career. I mean he can do good work just look at his Short program. That is one where he just lets his personality show. That short is about who Ilia is .Loud, bold and just barely holding on to control of it all. When Ilia hit this program at Nationals it was electrifying he took control over the arena and owned it like few skaters I have ever seen. Jason Brown Riverdance program is the one that came close to that. Ilia has a gift that he can bluntly sell a program to an audience that so rare these days. I really think that working on PCS is not going be stroking lessons he going learn how he can engage with the audience and bring them with him on the ice with him in a sense and put on a show. He has it all he just to learn how use his gifts and that is process that he needs to start learning now

 

[4everchan]

I absolutely enjoyed Mark from Israel. The height and ease of those triples. Love them. Maybe, Canada can borrow him. He is just my type of guy, from a looks standpoint, too. Also, the guy from Germany, if anybody can complain about low PCS scores, it should be him. The Luna camp pushes their skaters to move their entire bodies over the ice. Need more of that.

You know, the first time I saw Mark, he was competing as a junior in the summer series in Canada... If my memory is not a complete failure... I am really happy he decided to represent Israel, just as I am happy that Edrian now skates for the Philippines... Mark would not have made the team despite his gorgeous and secure triples and nice overall skating. Canadian men can be a mess but without a quad, nobody gets out of the country... Look at Toman, Markell, and others. I actually would prefer that Canada doesn't borrow Mark but some other countries borrow Toman and Markell or even Anthony Paradis (as I fear he may not develop harder jumps)

 

[Jeanie19]

You know, the first time I saw Mark, he was competing as a junior in the summer series in Canada... If my memory is not a complete failure... I am really happy he decided to represent Israel, just as I am happy that Edrian now skates for the Philippines... Mark would not have made the team despite his gorgeous and secure triples and nice overall skating. Canadian men can be a mess but without a quad, nobody gets out of the country... Look at Toman, Markell, and others. I actually would prefer that Canada doesn't borrow Mark but some other countries borrow Toman and Markell or even Anthony Paradis (as I fear he may not develop harder jumps)

I agree. And Toman and Markell are special skaters that the world never gets to see. I watch Canadian Nationals, so I know them.

 

[4everchan]

Forgive me for joining in the Ilia needs to work on PCS conversation.

I have seen some people mention Choreo, or presentation.... sure, he can get a better choreographer and listen to some music and develop his musicality... though I doubt he will ever get close to a Nathan or a Shoma in that sense...

In my humle opinion, the real improvement he needs to make :

Basic skating and flow. How he moves. His posture... being aware of how he looks on the ice from all angles. A genuine care in skating craft.

He should learn how to skate beautifully. This is what is missing for me. I don't see beautiful skating. He is lucky to even get 8s in PCS considering that. This takes years to learn and it doesn't seem like it ever interested him or his coaches. It's not like his parents had no clue about stroking or skating skills...

Removing quads in his program may allow him for more time to do more in between jumps.. because the big jumps require longer preparation... However, if what he does in between the jumps is not better in quality than right now, I agree with @lariko , it will just lower his BV and not really increase his PCS....

The real question is does Malinin want to work on basic stroking and edge quality? Does that interest him?

 

[lariko]

Ilia is the the quad king right now. He might start working on Quint's this summer. His tech lead is out of this world. But his Achilles heel is that PCS number so yes he does have to work on it. Nathan early in his career did 6-7 quads in a program as he got older and he stated finding what artistic style worked best the PCS went up and the number of quads came down some. That what happens and Ilia could bring down the number of quads and still have a huge Tech advantage because of the difficulty of the quads he does. No else can do a quad Axel and no one else in the top group was doing a quad Lutz so does he really need to do 7 quads in program to prove the point that he is the "quadgod". Every skater's style is different and he has very good basic skating skills he just needs to very good choreographer to bring his own unique style onto the ice. I think this year allow Ilia to pick which choreographer he wants to work with and give him the creative control over this aspect of his skating because he really clicks with one that may be the one that he works with for his entire career. I mean he can do good work just look at his Short program. That is one where he just lets his personality show. That short is about who Ilia is .Loud, bold and just barely holding on to control of it all. When Ilia hit this program at Nationals it was electrifying he took control over the arena and owned it like few skaters I have ever seen. Jason Brown Riverdance program is the one that came close to that. Ilia has a gift that he can bluntly sell a program to an audience that so rare these days. I really think that working on PCS is not going be stroking lessons he going learn how he can engage with the audience and bring them with him on the ice with him in a sense and put on a show. He has it all he just to learn how use his gifts and that is process that he needs to start learning now

One of enduring myth is that Chen 'improved' his artistic presentation or PCS. Chen always was a dancer with ballet background and a very musical skater. What improved was the attitude toward him and ability to figure out that he is also unique and his skating is top notch. Even if he is doing it without a single feather on his plain black shirt. Ilya skates a program with less errors, and people go 'woah, he is more artistic now!' He stumbles and they are, 'oh, noes, he must work on his PCS!'. He will have over the years the programs he is more comfortable with and others that don’t suit him. So far, he is actually chosing quite well. They suit his age and are not particularly weird or too overused. He is fine. He should stay the course and not chase after stuff he won't be good at. It never ends well. Chen was right in his usual quiet way--I have enormous respect for Chen, including how much the man stack to his own guns, no matter what the Greek chorus sang and how much they gloated whenever he missed a jump.

Current PCS favor hugely very short men sitting very low in their knees, rather than big, bold, tall skaters. We barely even see them any more succeeding. Malinin looks lanky, but he can lift himself into the air and rotate like nobody else. I don't think he can ever achieve deep edges or mind-blowing perfect glide as demonstrated by Uno.

If you want a young American skater with great PCS, that's Annis. But Annis can't land a thing this year.

 

[snd]

His posture

this is the number 1 problem

 

[4everchan]

One of enduring myth is that Chen 'improved' his artistic presentation or PCS. Chen always was a dancer with ballet background and a very musical skater. What improved was the attitude toward him and ability to figure out that he is also unique and his skating is top notch. Even if he is doing it without a single feather on his plain black shirt. Ilya skates a program with less errors, and people go 'woah, he is more artistic now!' He stumbles and they are, 'oh, noes, he must work on his PCS!'. He will have over the years the programs he is more comfortable with and others that don’t suit him. So far, he is actually chosing quite well. They suit his age and are not particularly weird or too overused. He is fine. He should stay the course and not chase after stuff he won't be good at. It never ends well. Chen was right in his usual quiet way--I have enormous respect for Chen, including how much the man stack to his own guns, no matter what the Greek chorus sang and how much they gloated whenever he missed a jump.

Current PCS favor hugely very short men sitting very low in their knees, rather than big, bold, tall skaters. We barely even see them any more succeeding. Malinin looks lanky, but he can lift himself into the air and rotate like nobody else.

I don't like the comparison between Nathan and Ilia... very different kinds of skaters. I would compare Ilia more to Boyang Jin (if we insist on making comparisons as they remain iffy... Ilia is unique, the others too) I know.. many people adore Boyang because he is SO MUCH fun... but the skating skills were not there... but damn, as a jumper he was stellar before his injuries. He seems to want to address this aspect of skating with his move to Orser... but then, he didn't have to move that far... Han Yan was a great skater because he cared about that from a young age.... I think Boyang made progress but we will have to see how long it takes him to gain a balance between the big quads and skating craft. At least, I respect him for going that route. It's not easy.

 

[lariko]

I don't like the comparison between Nathan and Ilia... very different kinds of skaters. I would compare Ilia more to Boyang Jin. I know.. many people adore Boyang because he is SO MUCH fun... but the skating skills were not there... but damn, as a jumper he was stellar before his injuries. He seems to want to address this aspect of skating with his move to Orser... but then, he didn't have to move that far... Han Yan was a great skater because he cared about that from a young age.... I think Boyang made progress but we will have to see how long it takes him to gain a balance between the big quads and skating craft. At least, I respect him for going that route. It's not easy.

I would rather not see Malinin go Boyang's way. His outings this year were tragic; he doesn't have the quads any more. I hope Malinin retires before this happens to him, like the insanely smart Chen. I mean, with current system, Han Yan might actually have been more successful. I wish China dug him out...

 

[Jeanie19]

One of enduring myth is that Chen 'improved' his artistic presentation or PCS. Chen always was a dancer with ballet background and a very musical skater. What improved was the attitude toward him and ability to figure out that he is also unique and his skating is top notch. Even if he is doing it without a single feather on his plain black shirt. Ilya skates a program with less errors, and people go 'woah, he is more artistic now!' He stumbles and they are, 'oh, noes, he must work on his PCS!'. He will have over the years the programs he is more comfortable with and others that don’t suit him. So far, he is actually chosing quite well. They suit his age and are not particularly weird or too overused. He is fine. He should stay the course and not chase after stuff he won't be good at. It never ends well. Chen was right in his usual quiet way--I have enormous respect for Chen, including how much the man stack to his own guns, no matter what the Greek chorus sang and how much they gloated whenever he missed a jump.

Current PCS favor hugely very short men sitting very low in their knees, rather than big, bold, tall skaters. We barely even see them any more succeeding. Malinin looks lanky, but he can lift himself into the air and rotate like nobody else.

If you want a young American skater with great PCS, that's Annis. But Annis can't land a thing this year.

I think Ilia just needs to skate clean. My 2 favorites are pc skaters Deniss and Kevin, but I still think Ilia is special. When he lands all his jumps cleanly, its amazing. His spins are good, his step sequence is good. Adding some transitions would help. But working on artistry will not help him win. I think he just needs to find music that speaks to him. And I still think Aymoz would be the best choreographer for him, I think Ilia needs something outside the box. Lets stop comparing him to Nathan, Shoma and Jason. Let Ilia be Ilia.

 

[4everchan]

I would rather not see Malinin go Boyang's way. His outings this year were tragic; he doesn't have the quads any more. I hope Malinin retires before this happens to him, like the insanely smart Chen. I mean, with current system, Han Yan might actually have been more successful.

To Jin's defense, he is coming back from injury and restarting from scratch. Han Yan was a special skater... I miss him dearly. Nathan was at it for long enough, competing in two Olympics... I miss him dearly as well. With Shoma, he remains one of the skaters from those last two Olympics that I enjoy the most, exactly because they are full package. PCS skating alone doesn't excite me... Jumps alone don't excite me... I need it all So yeah... Han Yan, Shoma, Nathan, of course Patrick... these are the skaters I admire. I don't think Ilia will join my list anytime soon, but I will be cheering for him when he lands crazy things like the quad axel or even more impressive in my opinion the 3lz-3a sequence... Gosh, I'd love him to do a 3a-3a seq. I think the problem is that people want him to win things... He can be admired for what he brings on to the table, even if he doesn't win...