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Does a piece of music 'belong' to a favourite skater?
- Thread starter TallyT
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- Apr 23, 2018
I did, and I don't think of her at all, and to be honest (and not knocking the girl) neither would most people, even skating fans. This is not about the most brilliant performance of a piece, but about a piece that is in the popular consciousness so entangled with one performer and their take on it that anyone else seems to be 'copying'. Bolero is not, it appears, definitively such a piece: it was for many years, now, at least to Russian skating fans if not everyone else, it has another definitive interpretation.
This also illustrates the fact that almost no pieces of music are that iconic to one performer no matter how brilliant. I think I have my answer.
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- Dec 7, 2022
I can understand the feeling that certain music belongs to a certain skater. However I don't think I could feel like that about the Bolero, because since seemingly forever people have skated to it. It's basically the first piece of music that anyone ever seems to think of when picking music. It's similar to Carmen where a few performances come to mind as especially remarkable and memorable, but overall it's just "skating music" per se.
I am often wondering why skaters pick a certain music, though, if I feel they have "nothing to add" in terms of interpretation or execution of music that has become rather "famous" or popular through another skater (or couple). For me White Crow is so linked to Kolyada's program now - if anyone chooses it I think they need to bring something special in in order for me to not ask "why".
La terre vue du ciel in that sense "belongs" to Savchenko/Massot to me. Yes, there are a few of these.
I am often wondering why skaters pick a certain music, though, if I feel they have "nothing to add" in terms of interpretation or execution of music that has become rather "famous" or popular through another skater (or couple). For me White Crow is so linked to Kolyada's program now - if anyone chooses it I think they need to bring something special in in order for me to not ask "why".
La terre vue du ciel in that sense "belongs" to Savchenko/Massot to me. Yes, there are a few of these.
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- Jan 17, 2022
I think a certain piece can be so connected in the public eye to a specific skater or pair, because they either did something so incredible and innovative with it that they influenced and inspired the whole sport, they chose a music and style that really hadn't been done before or they simply delivered such a brilliant and moving performance (preferable at the world stage) that everyone would love it. Or everything combined.
Point 1 and 2 are obviously easier to analyse rationally. I think Torvill and Dean and Seimei definitely are such cases. Maybe also Savchenko and Massot's free at the 2018 Olympics. Point 3...I would point to e.g. Tessa and Scott's 2018 free skate. They were of course brilliant technically, but what made the whole thing really iconic in my eyes was that it was their last performance, they went all out emotionally, they won by such a slim margin etc...That's why in my opinion it is unwise for other skaters in the same discipline to skate to the same song and especially only a short time later. It invites unfavourable comparisons.
I do think it is OK for skaters in other disciplines to give the song a go, though. You can create different images and poses in singles than in ID or in pairs that make the whole performance feel unique again.
That's why I think it was totally OK for Kostner or Valieva to use Bolero. The song will still always be mainly associated with T&D, but it didn't feel like riding someone else's coat tails.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone outside of the Russian bubble sees Valieva's version of Bolero as iconic tbh. Most people I know found it garish, stuffed with too much random movement and the costume rather tasteless. That includes non-skating fans.
Point 1 and 2 are obviously easier to analyse rationally. I think Torvill and Dean and Seimei definitely are such cases. Maybe also Savchenko and Massot's free at the 2018 Olympics. Point 3...I would point to e.g. Tessa and Scott's 2018 free skate. They were of course brilliant technically, but what made the whole thing really iconic in my eyes was that it was their last performance, they went all out emotionally, they won by such a slim margin etc...That's why in my opinion it is unwise for other skaters in the same discipline to skate to the same song and especially only a short time later. It invites unfavourable comparisons.
I do think it is OK for skaters in other disciplines to give the song a go, though. You can create different images and poses in singles than in ID or in pairs that make the whole performance feel unique again.
That's why I think it was totally OK for Kostner or Valieva to use Bolero. The song will still always be mainly associated with T&D, but it didn't feel like riding someone else's coat tails.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone outside of the Russian bubble sees Valieva's version of Bolero as iconic tbh. Most people I know found it garish, stuffed with too much random movement and the costume rather tasteless. That includes non-skating fans.
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I agree with everything you say. Regarding Valieva's Bolero I would add that it was indeed an extremely energetic performance and I think that's what impressed so many people. I wouldn't deny that effect, but apart from that there was nothing really special or iconic about it.
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- Dec 11, 2022
Well that's just your opinion, it's subjective. You cannot be liked universally, many times I myself couldn't see anything special in many programs that many people regard as masterpieces, I think it's normal, however most people found the program to be incredible and that statement is a fact, it's a program that holds the world record, it has the highest number of views ever (out of all videos on the channel) on Eurosport yt channel (OG team event) and one of the most viewed skating videos on NBC sport (GP Canada) and if you take a look at the comment section and the comments with the most upvotes indicate universal acclaim, so your statements "outside of the Russian bubble" (what does it even mean btw lmao?) And "most people found it garish" as well as "that includes non-skating fans" are simply and objectively wrong.
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- Oct 25, 2012
I'm the same. For me, "Riverdance" means Rika Hongo. But, I may be more than a little biased, as I REALLY liked her.
Rika Hongo - 2015 Cup Of China FS
But, I know for many people, "Riverdance" means Jason Brown:
Jason Brown - 2014 American Championships FS
I am a bit surprised that nobody has mentioned Julia Lipnitskaya and "Schindler's List". Yes, it had been done many times before, but Julia's is the version that had the biggest impact on me:
Julia Lipnitskaya - 2014 European Championships FS
"Don Quixote" is another piece that was done many times before, but it is Alina Zagitova's version that I think of when I hear the music:
Alina Zagitova - 2018 European Championships FS
I fully agree with those that say that "Bolero" means Jayne Torvill / Christopher Dean. Totally iconic programme that will never be usurped:
Jayne Torvill / Christopher Dean - 1984 Olympics FD
And as a little bonus, here is their performance of it at the British Championships, courtesy of our very own @La Rhumba:
Jayne Torvill / Christopher Dean - 1983-84 British Championships FD
Jayne Torvill / Christopher Dean - 1983-84 British Championships FD
Staying with Ice Dance, and topical given that I watched "Black Swan" a couple of days ago, "Swan Lake" means Elena Ilinykh / Nikita Katsalapov to me. Like "Schindler's List" and "Don Quixote" (both of which Ilinykh / Katsalapov also did), it had been done many times before, but this is the programme that I think of when I hear the music:
Elena Ilinykh / Nikita Katsalapov - 2014 Olympics FD
As for Hanyu, well, I would say that everything he skates to "belongs" to him, because he tends to choose music that hasn't been done before. People hear a piece of music for the first time when they see him skate to it, and so they associate the music with him. Then everybody and their dog copies him!
CaroLiza_fan
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- Apr 23, 2018
Firstly 'most' people is a big claim and also simply and objectively wrong, more people outside Russia wouldn't have seen it and if they did don't remember it: far more at the time and in the decades since would have seen and known about the Torvill and Dean one for all it was so long ago (I don't think you quite realise the publicity that skate had, it was literally headline news worldwide). As people said, that one changed the sport. That is not to say Valieva's is or is not great, she's a polarising figure and a lot of those views were quite possibly simply nosiness following That We Shall Not Name. The music doesn't automatically evoke her image for most fans let alone casual watchers.
Not a criticism. Not a way to downgrade what she does with it. Just... it's not hers.
This thread is not a question of who did a great version of the piece, it's not even who did the greatest version of the piece. It's about who did such an iconic version that other skaters know they will always be in its shadow and therefore leave it alone, or it is the one and only version that comes to most people's minds when the music is mentioned. For instance, going back to Yuzuru -? His Romeo and Juliet 1 and his Chopin are iconic, yes, but other people have skated to the music and are celebrated for both. So they do not fit the question in the title. Medvedeva is the first name and skate that comes to mind for Anna Karenina, so does she fit?
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Oh yes, thanks! I remember that made the news even here.
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Wait, what? John Curry, 1976 Olympics. Perhaps the best-constructed figure skating program of all time.
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I woul;d have said that Zagitova's performace was astonishing in terms of the number of triple jumps that she was able to cram into the last two minutes. In a way, this performance did change the sport of figure skating. The ISU Iimmediately amended the rules on bonus points for highlight technical elements in the secod half.
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- Jan 17, 2022
Honestly, any piece of music that has been titled a "warhorse" exactly because it is used by so many skaters like Bolero or Carmen or Exogenesis cannot, in my opinion, belong to one skater or team - Unless the team/skater was the first one to gain widespread media attention skating to it (and possibly the only ones for a while).
This does not mean other skaters can't deliver memorable performances, but when there are World-class senior skaters performing to a piece basically every season, the piece loses its ability to be tightly tied to one team/person. One fan might remember Valieva's Bolero, others Kostner's, or Torville and Dean's, or after this season Kevin Aymoz's, as all (will) have been performed on big stages.
Of all of these skaters, Torville and Dean are the ones who would most likely be considered as Bolero "belonging to" because whenever they are mentioned it is this performance that is brought up, and even non-skating fans know of Torville and Dean's Bolero.
Personal anecdote: If I asked my mother what Kamila Valieva skated to, she'd probably ask me which of the Russian girls she even was (and we watched the Olympics together...), while she definitely knows Bolero was skated to by Torville and Dean.
This does not mean other skaters can't deliver memorable performances, but when there are World-class senior skaters performing to a piece basically every season, the piece loses its ability to be tightly tied to one team/person. One fan might remember Valieva's Bolero, others Kostner's, or Torville and Dean's, or after this season Kevin Aymoz's, as all (will) have been performed on big stages.
Of all of these skaters, Torville and Dean are the ones who would most likely be considered as Bolero "belonging to" because whenever they are mentioned it is this performance that is brought up, and even non-skating fans know of Torville and Dean's Bolero.
Personal anecdote: If I asked my mother what Kamila Valieva skated to, she'd probably ask me which of the Russian girls she even was (and we watched the Olympics together...), while she definitely knows Bolero was skated to by Torville and Dean.
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- Jun 26, 2012
Whatever you think about Aljona and her choices after 2018, but the wonderful piece by Armand Amar 'The Earth from the Sky' and Aljona and Bruno's skate to it in 2018 set that one up for me. Whenever others try that music, I am disappointed. And it's a beautiful piece, so I am not surprised they try. But it's the pair programme of all pair programmes for me.
Another would be 'Winter' by Alexei Yagudin, much as I dislike his attitude towards people with a different sexual orientation as his own. But when I hear that music, it's his amazing step sequence I am thinking of.
Another would be 'Winter' by Alexei Yagudin, much as I dislike his attitude towards people with a different sexual orientation as his own. But when I hear that music, it's his amazing step sequence I am thinking of.
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Great thread @TallyT 
I've enjoyed all the comments so far, as they summed up what an 'iconic' piece or performance constitutes, the feeling that we had when watching it, watching it live or on telly, not necessarily just an extraordinary skating performance. And yes, of course everyone should be allowed to skate to any music they like and even trying to emulate those who came before.
However, there are of course performances that will forever be linked to certain skaters/events individually to every fan and can never be topped by someone else no matter how good they are. As some of you said already, this of course is down to personal taste.
For me they include:
The Addams Family/I put a spell on you (Stolbova/Klimov)
Seimei (Yuzu)
Graduation Ball (Toller Cranston)
Party Like A Russian (Mishina/Gallyamov)
I Believe I Can Fly (Moris Kvitelashvili)
Vincent/Don't Cry For Me Argentina (Gilles/Poirier)
Cabaret Medley (Popova/Mozgov)
Bolero (Torvill/Dean as well as Valieva)
Your Song/Hometown Glory (Duhamel/Radford)
And there are very many great performances I've thoroughly enjoyed over the years and always will - and many more to come, but the above are the ones that spring automatically to my mind when thinking of what was to me 'outstanding'.
I've enjoyed all the comments so far, as they summed up what an 'iconic' piece or performance constitutes, the feeling that we had when watching it, watching it live or on telly, not necessarily just an extraordinary skating performance. And yes, of course everyone should be allowed to skate to any music they like and even trying to emulate those who came before.
However, there are of course performances that will forever be linked to certain skaters/events individually to every fan and can never be topped by someone else no matter how good they are. As some of you said already, this of course is down to personal taste.
For me they include:
The Addams Family/I put a spell on you (Stolbova/Klimov)
Seimei (Yuzu)
Graduation Ball (Toller Cranston)
Party Like A Russian (Mishina/Gallyamov)
I Believe I Can Fly (Moris Kvitelashvili)
Vincent/Don't Cry For Me Argentina (Gilles/Poirier)
Cabaret Medley (Popova/Mozgov)
Bolero (Torvill/Dean as well as Valieva)
Your Song/Hometown Glory (Duhamel/Radford)
And there are very many great performances I've thoroughly enjoyed over the years and always will - and many more to come, but the above are the ones that spring automatically to my mind when thinking of what was to me 'outstanding'.
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- May 28, 2023
Absolutely correct.
Also he hasn't been everywhere, so I have no idea what he also means by Russia bubble. I live and train in Japan, which is second strongest figure skating country after Russia and everyone absolutely adores the Russia skaters around here, every time they came here it was like film celebrity. Nobody is sore loser.
If you mention Bolero around here (recently a team mate of mine at the rink competed using this music in local competitions and as teasing people were calling her "Kami"), everyone will tell you "aahhhh Valieva!!" as nobody is really familiar with the pairs who used this many, many years ago.
I went home, Eastern europe, before 2022 beijing Olympics, the talk was that Kamila's Bolero. I haven't checked how many views she has on Eurosports, but I truly believe is the most watched video easily.
If he doesn't like Kamila Valieva andher Bolero performance, or any other performance by her, very fine, everyone is entitled to their own taste, very valid, as people have their own preferences and tastes, no right or wrong on this, but using false data and misleading info to support a mere personal opinion, should instead just say I DON'T LIKE IT. And nobody can refute.
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To be fair, I wasn't born when John Curry was competing!
And, unfortunately, he doesn't get the same media coverage as Torvill and Dean do (I wasn't born when they won the 1984 Olympics, but their "Bolero" has been on TV many, many times). So, I haven't actually seen many of his programmes.You can't really directly compare Curry and Zagitova, because for most of their programmes, they used completely different pieces of music. (Apologies that I can't name them. I haven't seen the "Don Quixote" ballet. The same cannot be said of the musical version, "Man Of La Mancha". I have seen bits of it in the episode of "Quantum Leap" that is centred around a performance of it, and I fully intend to see it in full at some stage. But it has a totally different soundtrack to the ballet).
Watching his 1976 FS there now, I agree that Curry's skating was exquisite. He interpreted the music so well and, for most of the pieces, everything he did fitted the music absolutely perfectly.
For the one piece of music that they had in common (which, funnily enough, was the final section of both programmes), I preferred Zagitova. Because, although what Curry was doing was impressive, for me it didn't quite fit the music as well as what Zagitova was doing.
I am not a fan of backloading, and fully agreed with the ISU's decision on a health and wellbeing basis. But I have to admit, I was in admiration of how having all those jumps in the 2nd half fitted in so well with the music. And that is why I give Zagitova a slight edge over Curry to be my favourite "Don Quixote". Because, for me anyway, the way that all of the music that was used in her programme was interpreted was spot on.
Oh, and the dress!
CaroLiza_fan
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- Mar 14, 2007
Jimmy Ma and “Turn Down For What”
Keegan and “Perfect”
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- Mar 7, 2015
LOL Riverdance is definitely bourne and kraatz.
I am just joking around... I certainly don't think music belongs to skaters (Some people said it belonged to composers... not even)... but I agree that some programs are so iconic that the reference will be made...especially, as some have mentioned before, when it changes the sport or is the first time being performed to such acclaim (like T/D's Bolero)
Some people mentioned Virtue and Moir : for me it's their 2010 Mahler 5th symphony... I don't think just anyone could go out there and skate to it without having someone say... oh yeah... I remember that brilliant performance of VM.
ETA
While at it : Journey composed by Eric Radford for Patrick Chan : this is an example of a composer writing directly for the skater... so of course, if other skaters were to use Journey, it would bring back up strong and vivid memories of Chan's program.
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I'm not a fan of Kamila's Bolero period. I think Torvill and Dean interpreted the music the best and their 1984 program is absolutely iconic.
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- Mar 14, 2007
Agreed. Every time I hear the first notes I look around for Torvill and Dean.
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