The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[eppen]

The 4th jumping passes in my selection: 3Lo 3 times, 3Lz combo twice, 3F, 3A, 4T, 4S twice or 4Lz.

And I should maybe point out that the program structuce has been about the same since the number of jumps was limited to 8. And it was not very different before that either, there were just more jumps...

E

 

[yesterday]

If you want fixed structure, look at Junior Single Short Programs
You have the mandatory Axel, the mandatory solo jump and everyone who can do it will do the 3-3 combo with the highest value possible without repeating the solo jump.

And very often the three passes come in the same order. And the elemets between as well.

 

[Magill]

This last bit is also an argument for the "not art but sport" opinion. I don't think any kind of dance made for art (or even routines made to participate in dance competitions) could be broken down this way :-D

If you think of theatre, they repeat not just the structure but quite often the very same words over and over again for the umptieth time, and they have been doing it for centuries sometimes, and yet we do not doubt what they do is art. There was an act of creating art in writing the piece of drama to start with, and then there comes the art of telling the story over and over again, with the same words but each time anew. It is about their own interpretation, the spirit with which they fill in the structure to reinvent it over and over again, without necessarily changing it much (sometimes they do, but that's not a requirement at all).
So, no, a pre-existing structure does not make it any less an "art" as a rule.
Just saying

 

[el henry]

Well @moonvine you revived the thread.

 

[4everchan]

There is a tradition of relatively fixed or common structure at art, but the aim is beauty or like in music, building up to tension, then resolution of tension.

In figure skating, the aim of the fixed structure is points not beauty.

 

[Magill]

There is a tradition of relatively fixed or common structure at art, but the aim is beauty or like in music, building up to tension, then resolution of tension.

In figure skating, the aim of the fixed structure is points not beauty.

I'd say it has several aims, points is one and beauty is another one. Don't tell me skaters do not care for nothing but points, this is a pretty depressing and very unfair point of view. Of course, they want to collect points and they also want to make beautiful and impressive programs. This is not one or the other. This is one and the other. That's the - you may take it to be a pun - point!

 

[4everchan]

I'd say it has several aims, points is one and beauty is another one. Don't tell me skaters do not care for nothing but points, this is a pretty depressing and very unfair point of view. Of course, they want to collect points and they also want to make beautiful and impressive programs. This is not one or the other. This is one and the other. That's the - you may take it to be a pun - point!

I agree to disagree with the idea that the fixed structure in skating has anything to do with beauty. There is beauty in skating but it does not come from the structure of programs that is strictly aiming at optimizing points. ...and hope that thread will die from old age any time soon.

 

[Magill]

I agree to disagree with the idea that the fixed structure in skating has anything to do with beauty. There is beauty in skating but it does not come from the structure of programs that is strictly aiming at optimizing points. ...and hope that thread will die from old age any time soon.

I never said the aim of the structure was beauty. Beauty is happening regardless of the fixed structure.
But at least you agree there is some beauty involved in it, and it happens on purpose, not just by accident.
And , you know, if you don't like a thread, you just do not have to post there, that's easy. You do not need to wish it death .

 

[4everchan]

I never said the aim of the structure was beauty. Beauty is happening regardless of the fixed structure.
But at least you agree there is some beauty involved in it, and it happens on purpose, not just by accident.
And , you know, if you don't like a thread, you just do not have to post there, that's easy. You do not need to wish it death .

Look, we have been around the block in this thread. There are some folks on one side and then, some others on the other side. We have established in quite a constructive dialogue most of the time, that there is not really a meeting point. And that is fine. That is why, I believe this thread has run its course, not because I didn't appreciate the conversation. I am probably the person who posted the most in it... but at some point, it is perfectly fine to say that the topic has been covered. That is all. Sorry for my colourful semantics.. maybe death is not the word you would prefer here... just like I do not prefer to talk about art when it comes to figure skating. Hasta la Vista !!!

 

[Magill]

Look, we have been around the block in this thread. There are some folks on one side and the some others on the other side. We have established in quite a constructive dialogue most of the time, that there is not really a meeting point. And that is fine. That is why, I believe this thread has run its course, not because I didn't appreciate the conversation. I am probably the person who posted the most in it... but at some point, it is perfectly fine to say that the topic has been covered. That is all. Sorry for my colourful semantics.. maybe death is not the word you would prefer here... just like I do not prefer to talk about art when it comes to figure skating. Hasta la Vista !!!

Look, it was not me who restarted this thread so do not take it out on me. You do not want to go back, so don't. I just responded to whatever has been posted here today. I do not recall forcing you to respond. But if you do, you are just as much reviving the thread yourself as anyone else posting here - and you did that before me. As the saying goes, you cannot eat the cake and keep the cake, so you know...

 

[4everchan]

Look, it was not me who restarted this thread so do not take it out on me. You do not want to go back, so don't. I just responded to whatever has been posted here today. I do not recall forcing you to respond. But if you do, you are just as much reviving the thread yourself as anyone else posting here - and you did that before me. As the saying goes, you cannot eat the cake and keep the cake, so you know...

Not sure why you need to post this because it really doesn't matter. Anyone can at anytime contribute to a thread or not, or wish the discussion were over or not. Please feel free to continue posting, and I will feel free not to post at this point, unless someone brings something interesting to me, like @eppen did with their analysis. This is why I posted. Not to rehash what was discussed pages ago.
Hasta la vista 2 !!!

 

[Magill]

Not sure why you need to post this because it really doesn't matter. Anyone can at anytime contribute to a thread or not, or wish the discussion were over or not. Please feel free to continue posting, and I will feel free not to post at this point, unless someone brings something interesting to me, like @eppen did with their analysis. This is why I posted. Not to rehash what was discussed pages ago.
Hasta la vista 2 !!!

Cause I responded to eppen and you responded to me, didn't you? That's how threads happen
Hasta la vista!

 

[yesterday]

 

[Magill]

You mean they are fighting or exchanging friendly strokes? Or the point is you cannot tell?

 

[streams4dreams]

If you think of theatre, they repeat not just the structure but quite often the very same words over and over again for the umptieth time, and they have been doing it for centuries sometimes, and yet we do not doubt what they do is art. There was an act of creating art in writing the piece of drama to start with, and then there comes the art of telling the story over and over again, with the same words but each time anew. It is about their own interpretation, the spirit with which they fill in the structure to reinvent it over and over again, without necessarily changing it much (sometimes they do, but that's not a requirement at all).
So, no, a pre-existing structure does not make it any less an "art" as a rule.
Just saying

Along similar lines, I was thinking of symphonies. One could say that it's almost always the same structure of 4 movements, and yet this does not disqualify them from being art..

 

[Magill]

Along similar lines, I was thinking of symphonies. One could say that it's almost always the same structure of 4 movements, and yet this does not disqualify them from being art..

Exactly!

 

[4everchan]

Along similar lines, I was thinking of symphonies. One could say that it's almost always the same structure of 4 movements, and yet this does not disqualify them from being art..

i already mentioned music : yes, there is structure but the aim of structure is either beauty or building tension/resolving tension. But I will mention it again, since it's actually a false analogy to compare the structure in some music genres to figure skating programs. And of course, let's not forget that not all symphonies have 4 movements...

ETA
if you want to go a bit further... what would happen if a composer decided to omit or add one movements? But what would happen if a skater omitted or added an element? This is obviously a rhetorical question. No need to answer it.

 

[Mathman]

I do not see why partisans are so adamant in their insistence that no one is allowed to use the word "art" except in a manner that they approve of. Live and let live. Similarly, commentatorts who arrogate to themselves the definition of what constitues a "true sport" (and the rest of you are just wusses -- not a true Scottsman among ye) -- um, no... huh?

As for the construction of a program, I am old school -- or just old . The ideal program -- first you spend 30 seconds setting up your quad Axel. That satisfies the sports part, like the pole vaulter sets a new world record on the first jump. Then you do a few more jumps while you have the energy to do them. Then you spend a minute or so (the slow movement) skating around catching your breath, embellishing your performance with a variety of spins and moves in the field. Then the presto finale as you dash hoime, the rousing cheers of the audience speeding you on to the finish line.

 

[streams4dreams]

i already mentioned music : yes, there is structure but the aim of structure is either beauty or building tension/resolving tension. But I will mention it again, since it's actually a false analogy to compare the structure in some music genres to figure skating programs. And of course, let's not forget that not all symphonies have 4 movements...

That's why I said that there are almost always 4 movements...

ETA
if you want to go a bit further... what would happen if a composer decided to omit or add one movements? But what would happen if a skater omitted or added an element?

I don't really see much point in considering these questions. I was only making a point that the existence of structure does not negate something from being art, which we seem to agree on, and not the inverse.

 

[4everchan]

I was only making a point that the existence of structure does not negate something from being art, which we seem to agree on, and not the inverse.

We don't agree fully on that. Structure in art has a point. Structure in figure skating is for points