The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[TallyT]

Weeeelll... here we are again. Let me again point out that objects, and mental creations like symphonies, drama, poetry (pantoums and haikus and limericks oh my) and physical creations such as dance (folk dance, traditional Indian, indigenous, ballroom) can all have quite fixed structures and still involve art and artistry. So can primarily utilitarian objects like clothes and tapestries and blackwork (wanna talk about structure?), maps and quilts and knitwear, chairs ranging from a Bauhaus to a throne, cars and bookcases and penholders and toys and salt cellars.

The world at large does not agree on what constitutes 'art', and never did (and doesn't agree with what previous generations constituted). And the world at large does not agree on what constitutes 'sport', and never did (and doesn't agree with what previous generations constituted) although there has been far less quarrelling on this thread about that. What appears inarguable (okay, silly me to hope so) is that only one or two per generation can combine the two to a height that both other artists and other athletes are in awe and claim them as their own. Which is not surprising...

But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an aim for all who want to be the best.

 

[4everchan]

What appears inarguable (okay, silly me to hope so) is that only one or two per generation can combine the two to a height that both other artists and other athletes are in awe and claim them as their own. Which is not surprising...

That's perhaps the point you are making that would be the one that could bring the biggest debate, if and only if, we were all to agree that figure skating is art and sport and the aim for skaters is to achieve both. It would just turn into a fan war. So no, it doesn't appear inarguable at all... quite the opposite.

 

[Mathman]

We don't agree fully on that. Structure in art has a point. Structure in figure skating is for points

I think that Streams4dreams has the stronger side of the argument on this point. Suppose we hold a sonnet-writing contest. The rules are that every entry must contain exactly 14 lines of iambic pentemeter and conform (with a few allowable variations) to a predetermined rhyme scheme. Otherwise the contestant is disqualified.

(Shakespeare compared me to a summer's day and got my ordinal.)

The fact that all the entries must conform to the same strict requirements does not negate (nor augment) their esthetic merit. Neither does awarding points to various features of a skating contest, IMHO.

 

[Mathman]

That's perhaps the point you are making that would be the one that could bring the biggest debate, if and only if, we were all to agree that figure skating is art and sport and the aim for skaters is to achieve both. It would just turn into a fan war. So no, it doesn't appear inarguable at all... quite the opposite.

Wait, what? TallyT says that only a very few figure skating performances rise to the level where athletes and artists alike are impressed. Are you saying that this claim is wrong, and that in fact there are MANY fiugre skating performances that have this impact?

 

[TallyT]

I think that Streams4dreams has the stronger side of the argument on this point. Suppose we hold a sonnet-writing contest. The rules are that every entry must contain exactly 14 lines of iambic pentemeter and conform (with a few allowable variations) to a predetermined rhyme scheme. Otherwise the contestant is disqualified.

(Shakespeare compared me to a summer's day and got my ordinal.)

The fact that all the entries must conform to the same strict requirements does not negate (nor augment) their esthetic merit. Neither does awarding points to various features of a skating contest, IMHO.

And many of us have read some dreadfully inartistic and unpoetic poetry that stick to that and other forms too. May I recommend The Stuffed Owl: An Anthology of Bad Verse for anyone who wishes to fry brain cells in confirmation?

 

[4everchan]

I think that Streams4dreams has the stronger side of the argument on this point. Suppose we hold a sonnet-writing contest. The rules are that every entry must contain exactly 14 lines of iambic pentemeter and conform (with a few allowable variations) to a predetermined rhyme scheme. Otherwise the contestant is disqualified.

(Shakespeare compared me to a summer's day and got my ordinal.)

The fact that all the entries must conform to the same strict requirements does not negate (nor augment) their esthetic merit. Neither does awarding points to various features of a skating contest, IMHO.

Again, false analogy. There was never a discussion that art had no structure and that it needed to be a free for all.

The discussion took a wrong turn because some posters showed eloquently that figure skaters are less and less creative in their program construction because they want to maximize their points.

That argument is fair but some decided to make an amalgam saying that there are structural rules in art as well. But that does not mean that suddenly, because figure skating programs are using the same structure, that it equates to art. Actually, in figure skating, the repetitive structure limits creativity and ingenuity . It also limits beauty.

Figure skating simply follow the code of points and trends in program structure show that.

Remember Zagitova's fully back loaded program? I doubt the aim was an artistic one, it was to get the ten percent bonus and win the Olympics.

As a matter of fact, the ISU felt it was unbalanced and changed the rules for the 4/3 split of jumping passes, and since then, all skaters, even at the lower level followed suit.

So this simply shows that skaters follow the code of point and the structure is in the aim of optimizing points, not in respecting a traditional sonnet form...

Btw, the similar structure in art were replicated because of esthetic purpose. This is not happening In figure skating. The structure is replicated to get all the points

 

[4everchan]

Wait, what? TallyT says that only a very few figure skating performances rise to the level where athletes and artists alike are impressed. Are you saying that this claim is wrong, and that in fact there are MANY fiugre skating performances that have this impact?

I said what I said. If we were to agree that art meets sport in figure skating, then, we would find more than one or two per generation, well rounded athletes. I do not believe that this is the feat of only one individual...far from there. I actually think it is rather dismissive to all these athletes to say that only one or two per generation meet this balance...

 

[TallyT]

Wait, what? TallyT says that only a very few figure skating performances rise to the level where athletes and artists alike are impressed. Are you saying that this claim is wrong, and that in fact there are MANY fiugre skating performances that have this impact?

That is what I said was inarguable, yes.

The bit where I said that they should all aim for such brilliant heights was afterwards and although I can agree it is an opinion (and obviously arguable ) I still think it is correct. Don't most elite athletes dream - whether they know it is only dreams for them, or if they are one of the higher/highest in their time - of being a legendary G.O.A.T? Of being remembered years, decades later? Of the accolades of their peers and the cheers of their country - not just fs fans, the country at large?

ps - and I didn't say that there are only one or two 'well-rounded athletes' per generation, obviously there are more so that would be silly. I said, and I quote "combine the two to a height that both other artists and other athletes are in awe and claim them as their own".

 

[4everchan]

ps - and I didn't say that there are only one or two 'well-rounded athletes' per generation, obviously there are more so that would be silly. I said, and I quote "combine the two to a height that both other artists and other athletes are in awe and claim them as their own".

Well, well well... Here is my take on this. I am not a figure skater. I was a swimmer until college years. I believe that all figure skaters, including JGP skaters from smaller fed with only doubles at times, are impressive athletes. I never competed internationally. Anyone taking part at the Olympics, even the ones who do not make the free skate : I am in awe with their athletic achievements.

I am an artist and I don't claim that. It's just what I do. I do no see any figure skaters really as artists. I have been clear about that. But still then, if you were to force me to select skaters who check some of these "artistic" boxes, I could come up with many more than one or two. Combine this with what I have said about all of them being great athletes and you get many very impressive and talented individuals.

That's just me. And I am only sharing my background because it does influence my perspective. Someone else, whether or not they have athletic and/or artistic background, will have other claims or perspective about all this. Moving on. This is exactly what fans do, and I was hoping to steer the conversation away from specific skaters, purposely to avoid such heated fan discussions... The topic is already polarizing enough.

 

[streams4dreams]

Again, false analogy. There was never a discussion that art had no structure and that it needed to be a free for all.

The discussion took a wrong turn because some posters showed eloquently that figure skaters are less and less creative in their program construction because they want to maximize their points.

That argument is fair but some decided to make an amalgam saying that there are structural rules in art as well. But that does not mean that suddenly, because figure skating programs are using the same structure, that it equates to art. Actually, in figure skating, the repetitive structure limits creativity and ingenuity . It also limits beauty.

It must be terribly convenient to decide that when people disagree with you, the conversation took a wrong turn.

Once again, I only reacted to the argument "structure -> not art", and none of these other things you repeatedly put in my (and I suspect others') mouths (which I find quite rude). I really struggle to understand why you find this position so controversial, as you do in fact say that there can be structure in art, e.g.,

Structure in art has a point.

I am not saying the reason for structure is the same in figure skating and music, I am not even saying that figure skating is art, I just object to the conclusion that figure skating is not art because the programs are structured. I find this argument flawed because there are a number of structured art forms (like symphonies).

 

[4everchan]

I am not saying the reason for structure is the same in figure skating and music, I am not even saying that figure skating is art, I just object to the conclusion that figure skating is not art because the programs are structured. I find this argument flawed because there are a number of structured art forms (like symphonies).

We agree that structure is not the defining factor for which figure skating is not art. Structure in figure skating however does show that figure skaters' main interest is points optimization, which is normal and expected as they are in an sportive competition. That is all I am saying here.

 

[Mathman]

The example of Alina Zagitova's fully backloaded Olympic program is a good one. Some people think that she sacrificed "artisry" in order to grab the extra bonus points. Others praise the choreography and the performance as, contrariwise, seizing the rules and making them work for her to enhance the artistic conception of the Don Quixote music.

Me? I liked the program or I didn't. My only complaint is when people use their own perspectives to belittle and denigrate the perspectives of others.

 

[4everchan]

The example of Alina Zagitova's fully backloaded Olympic program is a good one. Some people think that she sacrificed "artisry" in order to grab the extra bonus points. Others praise the choreography and the performance as, contrariwise, seizing the rules and making them work for her to enhance the artistic conception of the Don Quixote music.

Me? I liked the program or I didn't. My only complaint is when people use their own perspectives to belittle and denigrate the perspectives of others.

I reply to this with extreme caution.

I don't think that, when offering my perspective, I belittled or denigrated others. I believe that, for the most part, this thread has remained very civil considering the topic of the debate. I have even written in one of my posts just up there that it's normal that this topic is bringing such heat because of our personal experiences. It is truly a polarizing concept. We spent pages and pages talking about semantics... and we couldn't get out of it. There is no middle ground here.

However, here is something to consider, there is perspective and there are fields of expertise. Again, we all come from different backgrounds. If you are truly a mathman as your name suggests, and gave us a mathematical perspective about jump rotation, you wouldn't see me arguing that your numbers are wrong because, clearly, as a musician, I can only count up to 4 Do you see what I am saying? It anything, I feel that often my posts about music and art in this thread were not taken seriously, though they came not only from a personal experience but a place of knowledge. It's all good. I can deal with it.

 

[Magill]

We agree that structure is not the defining factor for which figure skating is not art. Structure in figure skating however does show that figure skaters' main interest is points optimization, which is normal and expected as they are in an sportive competition. That is all I am saying here.

Oh, my... There are figure skating competitions (points) and there are figure skating exhibitions and shows (no points, no fixed structure). There are art contests and there are art exhibitions. See?
I can assure you artists submitting their works of art to such contests do it because they want to win and they maximize their efforts to play by the rules of any specific contest they take part in. It does not make them any less creative and their work any less is considered art. Quite contrary, there are art competitions which can constitute a real starting platform for a full fledged artistic career when won. True even for your field which is music, isn't it? Think of Krystian Zimerman's career - it kicked off when he won the International Piano Chopin Competition in Warsaw, Poland, at 18 years of age. He was brilliant and genius, yes. Yet he was there to compete, collect points, if you will, not to actually chase some etheric no-purpose beauty...

 

[4everchan]

Oh, my... There are figure skating competitions (points) and there are figure skating exhibitions and shows (no points, no fixed structure). There are art contests and there are art exhibitions. See?
I can assure you artists submitting their works of art to such contests do it because they want to win and they maximize their efforts to play by the rules of any specific contest they take part in. It does not make them any less creative and their work any less is considered art. Quite contrary, there are art competitions which can constitute a real starting platform for a full fledged artistic career when won. True even for your field which is music, isn't it? Think of Krystian Zimerman's career - it kicked off when he won the International Piano Chopin Competition in Warsaw, Poland, at 18 years of age. He was brilliant and genius, yes. Yet he was there to compete, collect points, if you will, not to actually chase some etheric no-purpose beauty...

Structure, now competition, let's talk about costumes next because musicians have a tradition for costuming too. I bet the lady sitting next to me would have given Yuja Wang a costume violation deduction if she could have done so.

Competitions do launch international careers for young musicians. That's correct. It came very recently in the history of music. Music lived without it for centuries. Competing is not essential for a musician. Many never enter these events and have successful careers. For many athletes, competing at the Olympics (and winning) is the crowning moment, the aim, the ultimate achievement.

The point I made with structure still holds true when it comes to competition. The fact that one can find a competitive element in art doesn't mean that figure skating is art because it features the same element. Their purpose is essentially different.

 

[Magill]

Structure, now competition, let's talk about costumes next because musicians have a tradition for costuming too. I bet the lady sitting next to me would have given Yuja Wang a costume violation deduction if she could have done so.

Competitions do launch international careers for young musicians. That's correct. It came very recently in the history of music. Music lived without it for centuries. Competing is not essential for a musician. Many never enter these events and have successful careers. For many athletes, competing at the Olympics (and winning) is the crowning moment, the aim, the ultimate achievement.

The point I made with structure still holds true when it comes to competition. The fact that one can find a competitive element in art doesn't mean that figure skating is art because it features the same element.

No, surely not. I am just saying that artists also chase points sometimes and it does not make their work any less "artistic". So the fact of chasing points does not exclude the chaser from being an artist or the field they chase points in from being considered art. The existence of art competitions seems to prove it pretty well.
Anyway, I am not claiming figure skating is not a sport so there is no point in your further argument there.

 

[4everchan]

No, surely not. I am just saying that artists also chase points sometimes and it does not make their work any less "artistic". So the fact of chasing points does not exclude the chaser from being an artist or the field they chase points in from being considered art. The existence of art competitions seems to prove it pretty well.
Anyway, I am not claiming figure skating is not a sport so there is no point in your further argument there.

What are you claiming? That figure skating is art? I am claiming that it isn't. Skating is, at times, beautiful. I love it. But to me, and I repeat, to me, it's as far as being art as any other sport. However, I respect your point of view. I disagree with the chasing points argument you just made but there is no need to discuss this any further. I have already shared my views on that topic.
I hope you can respect my point of view and my desire from moving on from this thread.

 

[Mathman]

We spent pages and pages talking about semantics... and we couldn't get out of it. There is no middle ground here.

However, here is something to consider, there is perspective and there are fields of expertise...

To me, that's the whole problem right there. This is a question of semantics. The topic of the thread is, "Is it appropriate to use the word "art" in discussing the esthetic features of figure skating, or is this a misuse of the word?" I would be glad to hear from experts on this topic -- that is, from professional linguists and grammarians whose profession it is to study such questions.

 

[TallyT]

I would be glad to hear from experts on this topic -- that is, from professional linguists and grammarians whose profession it is to study such questions.

{They argue even more than figure skating fans, you know... I've heard them }

 

[4everchan]

{They argue even more than figure skating fans, you know... I've heard them }

That's what I am thinking too.