The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[Mathman]

Still, I guess, even if not perfect, it would be much much better that what we have now.

I would also say that what we have now is better than what we had in the past.

As for AI, a separate judges' body, etc. -- money, money, money. Figure skating does not have the resources of the majpr team sports, or of a big revenue sport like tennis, or even golf. I think we will have to be content with whatever incremental improvements we can come up with.

 

[Mathman]

But lots of classical music was also made basically for entertainment and fun! It was just a different idea of fun as the times were different. Chopin was a rock star of his times. So was Mozart. So was Liszt. Paddymania was there long, long before Beatlemania.
It is only the passage of time and appearance of modern jazz, rock and such that relegated them to the status they have now as "serious" and "classical".
Being "art" does not exclude being entertaining and fun.

I think that in general we need to get over ourselves.

The "free art" of geometry means "measuring land" -- a very useful art indeed in a prehistoric society emrging from hunting/gathering to the beginnings of agriculture. Mathematicians err when they allow themselves to stray too far from their roots. I say this as a person whose vocation and life work is to stray as far as my imagination allows. There is something to be said for the view, “if we are not counting and measuring, then we are not doing mathematics, whatever our pretentions may be.”

As for music, I bow to professional musicologists and practitioners. Still, IMHO music does itself no favors if it wanders too far from its basic purpose, to charm the ear.

Physicists sneer at the social sciences – how dare you call that “science ?!” Mathematicians have contempt for mere plebian engineers. But for myself, when a figure skater takes pains to move with grace, to inject esthetic elements into his performance, to respond to the musical structure, to interpret the theme of the choreography – that skater has earned our applause.

 

[4everchan]

But lots of classical music was also made basically for entertainment and fun! It was just a different idea of fun as the times were different. Chopin was a rock star of his times. So was Mozart. So was Liszt. Paddymania was there long, long before Beatlemania.
It is only the passage of time and appearance of modern jazz, rock and such that relegated them to the status they have now as "serious" and "classical".
Being "art" does not exclude being entertaining and fun.

That's not accurate at all. There were "lighter" forms of music throughout the ages. Just thing about folk music. It's always been there, even before art music. I will just leave it at that. I agree that art can also entertain. The point I am making is that entertainment doesn't mean art. Same with structure. Same with competition. Again, it seems that there is an attempt to find features included in art and find the same features in figure skating and then, make an amalgam. It just does not work like this.

 

[el henry]

That's not accurate at all. There were "lighter" forms of music throughout the ages. Just thing about folk music. It's always been there, even before art music. I will just leave it at that. I agree that art can also entertain. The point I am making is that entertainment doesn't mean art. Same with structure. Same with competition. Again, it seems that there is an attempt to find features included in art and find the same features in figure skating and then, make an amalgam. It just does not work like this.

There may (and of course were) lighter forms of music, but classical music was not seen as "serious" for the people of their time. At least in one instance, I know for a fact it was not:

Spousal Unit's grandmother was a girl in the Dakota territories, far from any pretensions to serious music (she did later become a college music/piano professor, however, so the seed was there ). German folk music abounded, as many families spoke primarily German.

She told the story that as a girl, she would go to small school and tell her playmates, "look a new piece of music from Mr. Brahms!"

She played, and her classmates enjoyed it. Not because it was "high art", but because it was good, entertaining music.

 

[4everchan]

There may (and of course were) lighter forms of music, but classical music was not seen as "serious" for the people of their time. At least in one instance, I know for a fact it was not:

Spousal Unit's grandmother was a girl in the Dakota territories, far from any pretensions to serious music (she did later become a college music/piano professor, however, so the seed was there ). German folk music abounded, as many families spoke primarily German.

She told the story that as a girl, she would go to small school and tell her playmates, "look a new piece of music from Mr. Brahms!"

She played, and her classmates enjoyed it. Not because it was "high art", but because it was good, entertaining music.

I don't think this anecdote, which is far from uncommon and is still relevant today changes anything I have said.

 

[el henry]

I don't think this anecdote, which is far from uncommon and is still relevant today changes anything I have said.

I apologize if I misunderstood the point (and I tried so hard not to get sucked back into this thread), that at the time of these composers, "the public" (for lack of a better word) thought of the classical composers as serious art and not as entertainment.

So if that wasn't the point, I take it back. I still love the anecdote.

 

[Magill]

That's not accurate at all. There were "lighter" forms of music throughout the ages. Just thing about folk music. It's always been there, even before art music. I will just leave it at that. I agree that art can also entertain. The point I am making is that entertainment doesn't mean art. Same with structure. Same with competition. Again, it seems that there is an attempt to find features included in art and find the same features in figure skating and then, make an amalgam. It just does not work like this.

Folk music was for regular folks. Fine art music was for wealthy and/or educated folks. Both groups got their kicks in their own different ways. It does not mean one was for entertainment and the other was not.
But you're right, let's leave it here as this goes very OT.

 

[Mathman]

(I)t seems that there is an attempt to find features included in art and find the same features in figure skating and then...,

Perfectltly stated. We should stop right there. Long live those features!

 

[4everchan]

. We should stop right there.

Perfectly stated.

 

[4everchan]

Folk music was for regular folks. Fine art music was for wealthy and/or educated folks. Both groups got their kicks in their own different ways. It does not mean one was for entertainment and the other was not.
But you're right, let's leave it here as this goes very OT.

Not quite that simple and clear cut.. But I agree to leave it.

 

[eppen]

If you think of theatre, they repeat not just the structure but quite often the very same words over and over again for the umptieth time, and they have been doing it for centuries sometimes, and yet we do not doubt what they do is art. There was an act of creating art in writing the piece of drama to start with, and then there comes the art of telling the story over and over again, with the same words but each time anew. It is about their own interpretation, the spirit with which they fill in the structure to reinvent it over and over again, without necessarily changing it much (sometimes they do, but that's not a requirement at all).
So, no, a pre-existing structure does not make it any less an "art" as a rule.
Just saying

(Sorry if I repeat sth that was already said, but did not go through all the posts before I wrote this.)

The difference is that they are repeating the same work of art over and over again. I compard different skating programs from different periods - some were by same skaters, but I did try to select as many different ones that I had time for.

If you look at the structure of different plays, then you cannot get quite the same structure for any of them in the same way as you get for just about any number of skating programs. Like you don't get dramatic events every 20 minutes in every drama or funny stuff in a comedy every 10 minutes. The length of the plays, numbers of acts, various emotional arcs, plot twists are all different. They're individual works of art that get repeated sometimes for thousands of years (think of ancient Greek plays). Using the same material many times is not the same as that material being made according to a pre-existing structure.

The same applies to pieces of music that get repeated over and over again for centuries. And again, you can have symphonies that are composed for different kind of orchestras, have different numbers of parts, the placement of slow and fast vary etc. Modern pop songs probably can be broken down for timing and structure - intro, verse, chorus, bridge etc. get repeated very often in similar ways in a 3 min 30 s or 4 min song. (And popular music is not always regarded as art...)

Or books - you may have general rules that seem to apply to a certain genre, but each book is still different with a different overall structure.

Sometimes skaters do repeat their programs and even with radical makeovers, the structure ends up being probably pretty much the same with layout and timing of elements. If different skaters take on the same piece of music, the music cut may vary a lot, but the structure and timing of the program does not vary very much from skater to skater.

E

 

[Magill]

The difference is that they are repeating the same work of art over and over again. I compard different skating programs from different periods - some were by same skaters, but I did try to select as many different ones that I had time for.

If you look at the structure of different plays, then you cannot get quite the same structure for any of them in the same way as you get for just about any number of skating programs. Like you don't get dramatic events every 20 minutes in every drama or funny stuff in a comedy every 10 minutes. The length of the plays, numbers of acts, various emotional arcs, plot twists are all different. They're individual works of art that get repeated sometimes for thousands of years (think of ancient Greek plays). Using the same material many times is not the same as that material being made according to a pre-existing structure.

The same applies to pieces of music that get repeated over and over again for centuries. And again, you can have symphonies that are composed for different kind of orchestras, have different numbers of parts, the placement of slow and fast vary etc. Modern pop songs probably can be broken down for timing and structure - intro, verse, chorus, bridge etc. get repeated very often in similar ways in a 3 min 30 s or 4 min song. (And popular music is not always regarded as art...)

Or books - you may have general rules that seem to apply to a certain genre, but each book is still different with a different overall structure.

Sometimes skaters do repeat their programs and even with radical makeovers, the structure ends up being probably pretty much the same with layout and timing of elements. If different skaters take on the same piece of music, the music cut may vary a lot, but the structure and timing of the program does not vary very much from skater to skater.

E

As you go on with reading the discussion initiated by your post (which was long, hot and engaged) you will come across a post by someone who brought even more valid example of some formal poetry forms like sonnets or haiku. And yet nobody questions they are work of true art. Some even argue that the formal structure of a sonnet makes it even more challenging for the artist to express his idea using this pre-defined and invariable form requirement so it requires even more and not less skill and talent

 

[eppen]

Thank you! That is true, poetry is a form of art that has pretty strict pre-existing structures, thoughh quite a few of them depending on language and traditions. But I still don't think skating can be compared to even with poetry :-D I doubt readers would appreciate having the same rhyming words almost invariably at the same moments...

 

[TallyT]

Thank you! That is true, poetry is a form of art that has pretty strict pre-existing structures, thoughh quite a few of them depending on language and traditions. But I still don't think skating can be compared to even with poetry :-D I doubt readers would appreciate having the same rhyming words almost invariably at the same moments...

No, but they do appreciate pantoums...

And off to another tangent what, if anything, makes ballet art and the complex but the repeated steps of English folk dance not? (Me, I think nothing)

 

[gkelly]

If you look at the structure of different plays, then you cannot get quite the same structure for any of them in the same way as you get for just about any number of skating programs. Like you don't get dramatic events every 20 minutes in every drama or funny stuff in a comedy every 10 minutes. The length of the plays, numbers of acts, various emotional arcs, plot twists are all different. They're individual works of art that get repeated sometimes for thousands of years (think of ancient Greek plays). Using the same material many times is not the same as that material being made according to a pre-existing structure.

Actually, there was a period in the Renaissance when tragedies attempted to follow Aristotle's Poetics as a how-to guide, the "right" way to construct a tragedy. The French Academy pretty much insisted on it. University-educated English authors also tended to follow the template. Shakespeare was less strict about following the rules, but like his contemporaries he did stick to a five-act structure.

Hollywood movies also tend to follow a predictable structure (see https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/save-the-cat-beat-sheet/).

So do genre novels, especially romances.

The specific content of the story may vary widely, including what actually happens during any of the standard story beats, but the overall shape of the stories on a meta-level is pretty standard.

In skating, the required structure for short programs is determined by the required elements, for as long as short programs have existed. For free skates, since the introduction of the well-balanced program guidelines in the mid-1990s, codified to requirements at the turn of the century and cemented further under IJS.

The order of elements is not required by the rules (aside from the second-half bonus with limits on the number jumps eligible for the bonus having a strong effect on placement of, now, the last three jumps in a singles program), although the number of each element type is. Mostly the element order is unofficially standardized by what works best for most skaters athletically/aerobically (allowing them to complete the most elements with the best chance of technical success) and also in terms of satisfying audiences and judges in terms of an emotional arc.

If a skater chooses to deviate from the typical order of elements to match a particular music selection (which they have probably edited to meet the time limits as well as the athletic demands of successful execution), and if they execute the less common order successfully, should that be rewarded under Composition as an example of originality?

 

[Mathman]

No, but they do appreciate pantoums...

And off to another tangent what, if anything, makes ballet art and the complex but the repeated steps of English folk dance not? (Me, I think nothing)

I think the difference is that folk dance -- people's dancing -- is intended to be participatory. Everyone in the village gets up and dances around the maypole. This includes children, old folks, and cluzy oafs with two left feet. The steps, at least in their original settings, have to be easy enough that everyone can take a shot at it. (Of course there will always be the village showoff who can do it better than amyone else.)

Ballet is performed by professionaly trained companies for the entertainment of the of the audience.

 

[TallyT]

I think the difference is that folk dance -- people's dancing -- is intended to be participatory. Everyone in the village gets up and dances around the maypole. This includes children, old folks, and cluzy oafs with two left feet. The steps, at least in their original settings, have to be easy enough that everyone can take a shot at it. (Of course there will always be the village showoff who can do it better than amyone else.)

Ballet is performed by professionaly trained companies for the entertainment of the of the audience.

True. But the old dances are being kept and properly taught, danced in displays and treated as artistic history (the part of me that never grew up has a whole series of books about them) If breakdance and ballroom (dancesport) are moving towards sports status... then a lot of things can be said to be moving to art(as a quick look in any modern local art gallery will affirm).

Anything created by humans changes and develops, after all. And other humans complain when it does.

 

[Mathman]

Anything created by humans changes and develops, after all.

This article came across my newsfeed today. It is about the discovery of prehistoric snadals in a cave in Spain.

As Wikipedia puts is, "fashion design is the art of applying design, aesthetics, clothing construction and natural beauty to clothing and its accessories." Maybe the true artists of figure skating are the costumers.

The world's oldest shoes? Sandals found in bat cave are thousands of years old, study finds

The sandals are the “earliest and widest-ranging” collection of prehistoric footwear ever found in Europe, a new study said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[TallyT]

This article came across my newsfeed today. It is about the discovery of prehistoric snadals in a cave in Spain.

As Wikipedia puts is, "fashion design is the art of applying design, aesthetics, clothing construction and natural beauty to clothing and its accessories." Maybe the true artists of figure skating are the costumers.

The world's oldest shoes? Sandals found in bat cave are thousands of years old, study finds

The sandals are the “earliest and widest-ranging” collection of prehistoric footwear ever found in Europe, a new study said.

www.nbcnews.com

I would absolutely agree that the best costume designers are artists in their own right - I have several Satomi Ito books both for competition and show costumes, they are beautiful, and would love to get similar ones for the designer(s) of the best Korean outfits. Though to be blunt, most of the designers for the western men (if there are designers) are very low art of that....

 

[Mathman]

And now some news about the art of glassblowing.

This lady bought a glass vase for 4 dollars at a thrift shop.

Turned out it was art. She just sold it at auction for $107,000.

She bought a vase at Goodwill for $3.99. It was a rare piece that just sold at auction for more than $100,000.

A rare vase by Italian architect Carlo Scarpa recently sold at auction for $107,100 — even though it went for just $3.99 at Goodwill.

www.cbsnews.com