I think generally speaking, it's not all that bad for many Jr. skaters to not come up with new programs every year. Not many people are paying attention to what they did the prior year. Jr. skaters need to focus on improving technical content, I don't believe they should spend too much time on doing new choreography during development phase.
Repeating Programs
- Thread starter blue dog
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Also, juniors have to change some of the elements in their short programs from one year to the next because of the rotating requirements. That doesn't mean that they have to change the music or the general structure of the program, but at the very least a lutz preceded by steps is going to require a different setup and probably different steps than a loop, and a flying camel will probably require a different setup than a flying sitspin.
Skaters who are moving up from one level to the next also need longer programs for the new level and often different short program elements where applicable. Again, they could just add another 30 seconds of music or rearrange a few of the elements rather than starting from scratch with completely new programs.
There might be good reasons for either choice -- new programs, or rearranged old programs. Different skaters, different situations each particular season. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer.
Skaters who are moving up from one level to the next also need longer programs for the new level and often different short program elements where applicable. Again, they could just add another 30 seconds of music or rearrange a few of the elements rather than starting from scratch with completely new programs.
There might be good reasons for either choice -- new programs, or rearranged old programs. Different skaters, different situations each particular season. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer.
Wow. How much do elite choreographers usually charge per program?
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2007
I wish I knew the exact amount! but I don't
Interestingly, Fedor Andreev said in an interview that he couldn't afford his mom (Marina Zoueva) choreographing new programs for him this year (you would have thought she could do it for him for free!!) so he turned to Tessa Virtue for his sp and brought back an old fp....Extraordinarily expensive for an elite choregrapher... Some people say around $10,000 or maybe even more. I wish I knew...Remember many choreographers/skaters will even fly to the other end of the world to get together to do a program. If you add these costs, the number may indeed be eye-opening...
The problem is that for the elite skaters, you see those programs at least 3 times, and as many as 5 times in one season (2 GPs and Worlds, and maybe 4CC/Euros and the GPF as well---and not even counting Nationals). That means in the second season, you are seeing that FS for as much as a 10th time. When the skater has chosen an especially dog-eared piece of music, that can be downright annoying.
I know I got awfully tired of Lysacek's Carmen after half a season, and his "Tosca" program is just as grating. I'm afraid we're going to see it again next season because he didn't do it at 2008 Worlds. I sure hope not.
Repeated SPs aren't nearly as bad, because ESPN didn't usually show all the GP SPs anyway. And they are blessedly brief.
I look forward to seeing new programs (at least the FSs) from skaters each season. I'm always disappointed when the FS is a holdover from the previous season.
As for Junior skaters, they don't get the exposure that the Seniors do, so we're not seeing their programs multiple times each season. So it isn't quite as bad if they repeat, but the top Juniors rarely do that, because they are exploring different types of music and working on their expression. In a sense, for them to repeat is to stagnate some in their musical development.
I know I got awfully tired of Lysacek's Carmen after half a season, and his "Tosca" program is just as grating. I'm afraid we're going to see it again next season because he didn't do it at 2008 Worlds. I sure hope not.
Repeated SPs aren't nearly as bad, because ESPN didn't usually show all the GP SPs anyway. And they are blessedly brief.
I look forward to seeing new programs (at least the FSs) from skaters each season. I'm always disappointed when the FS is a holdover from the previous season.
As for Junior skaters, they don't get the exposure that the Seniors do, so we're not seeing their programs multiple times each season. So it isn't quite as bad if they repeat, but the top Juniors rarely do that, because they are exploring different types of music and working on their expression. In a sense, for them to repeat is to stagnate some in their musical development.
I think skaters repeat programs so as to get mileage out of them. The programs sometimes get better with time and changes.
Choreography is expensive. Pending what the Choreographers status is. When you add on the flights to travel back and forth and hotel, ice, car rental etc., for maintenance on the program, the cost can be up to $10,000.00 or more for a long program. Short program possibly 1/2 that.
Choreography is expensive. Pending what the Choreographers status is. When you add on the flights to travel back and forth and hotel, ice, car rental etc., for maintenance on the program, the cost can be up to $10,000.00 or more for a long program. Short program possibly 1/2 that.
Not all choreographers are as expensive as the in-vogue ones are.
David Wilson is the most popular choreographer lately, but his programs are notoriouosly difficult, and many skaters who had programs done by him were forced to take out the intricate choreography because they were unable to skate them as choreographed. Some recent examples: Miki Ando, the Olympic season; Emily Hughes, 2006-2007.
There are other choreographers who aren't quite as popular who have done great jobs for skaters at less expense.
David Wilson is the most popular choreographer lately, but his programs are notoriouosly difficult, and many skaters who had programs done by him were forced to take out the intricate choreography because they were unable to skate them as choreographed. Some recent examples: Miki Ando, the Olympic season; Emily Hughes, 2006-2007.
There are other choreographers who aren't quite as popular who have done great jobs for skaters at less expense.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I hadn't thought of the financial issue, and now it seems really obvious! I know some skaters feel confident about doing their own choreo or adapting and changing older programs, but I'd imagine a younger, less experienced skater would find that difficult to do.
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- Feb 4, 2008
I think it depends on two things: how good the program is and if there's any evolution.
If it's a great program, then no-one gets bored of seeing it for two years in a row (I'd love to see Daisuke keep Swan Lake next season!).
Also, especially if it's an LP, it needs to evolve, so it doesn't look as if the skater's lazy; take for instance Brian Joubert's Metallica program. What was great about that program was that it really evovled and got richer from the first time he skated it to the last. (However, I am happy to know he's changing his LP next season)
Also, if a skater has an awful season with a given program, it can be good, not only for results, but also for the mental state of the skater to go back to a prohram that really suited him/her.
If it's a great program, then no-one gets bored of seeing it for two years in a row (I'd love to see Daisuke keep Swan Lake next season!).
Also, especially if it's an LP, it needs to evolve, so it doesn't look as if the skater's lazy; take for instance Brian Joubert's Metallica program. What was great about that program was that it really evovled and got richer from the first time he skated it to the last. (However, I am happy to know he's changing his LP next season)
Also, if a skater has an awful season with a given program, it can be good, not only for results, but also for the mental state of the skater to go back to a prohram that really suited him/her.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2007
ITA. I wouldn't mind seeing a great program again the following season. The one program I would love to see again is YuNa Kim's The Lark Ascending, but I don't think she will skate the program again. She has made comments that she disliked skating the program because it was so difficult and even her arms were tired and sore by end of the program. It would be lovely to see healthier & more mature YuNa do a perfect LP to The Lark Ascending.
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- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
as long as they don't repeat and repeat and repeat I don't mind. some programs are better the second season out...
From what I gathered from Scott Hamilton's book in his era it wasn't uncommon to use the same pieces of music more than once, with maybe different arrangements or placements within the program... and the choreography would be a bit different... *shrugs*
From what I gathered from Scott Hamilton's book in his era it wasn't uncommon to use the same pieces of music more than once, with maybe different arrangements or placements within the program... and the choreography would be a bit different... *shrugs*
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- Dec 16, 2006
It also wasn't uncommon back then to bring back something you'd used as a kid. Elizabeth Manley's LP in Calgary were all pieces she'd used when she was younger that she did well with. Kristi Yamaguchi admitted to having used Malaguena when she was younger--and decided that she was far more comfortable with that than with anything new.
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- Oct 20, 2006
It's really depends on whether you like these programs or not. I'd love to see some of my favorite programs skated for two years, where I feel some of them skated too many times already for just one season.
Example, my favorite programs that I loved to see more than one season:
Johnny Weir's LP Child of Nazareth, and SP King of Chess, (I might be the only one for these)
The programs I don't want to see repeating:
His Love is War, and Yunona I Avos
Example, my favorite programs that I loved to see more than one season:
Johnny Weir's LP Child of Nazareth, and SP King of Chess, (I might be the only one for these)
The programs I don't want to see repeating:
His Love is War, and Yunona I Avos
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
:scratch: why do people keep saying they had a shortened season? They competed in all their Grand Prix assignments starting from Skate America didn't they? The injury did not affect the length of their season at all.
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- Mar 25, 2008
Having no TV access to GP events, I based what I wrote on other posts here. Jessica's Wikipedia page lists only three events for 2006-7: Nationals, 4CC (which they obviously did not complete) and Worlds. Assuming that's correct (is it?), they would have only skated two full performances of The Blower's Daughter LP prior to this season. It's a gorgeous program, anyway. I'm glad they brought it back.
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- Mar 4, 2004
Jessica did not compete in the GP series in 2006-2007 due to a knee injury. D&D’s first competition of the season was Canadian Nats. I was very pleased that they chose to keep Blower’s Daughter too. It is a beautiful program and quite special to them since the music was arranged for specifically for them. It was wonderful to finally see it performed to its full capacity at Worlds this year.
I'd like ot thank those who gave the estimate figures for programs choreographed by top choreographers! Yeah, they seem to be expensive. But some skaters would pay just a little less than that for their costumes. So compared to that, it may not be that bad.
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- Dec 28, 2006
Interesting. I didn't know that. Sasha had skated to Carmen for her first competition as a little girl, and then did it again as a teenager for the Olympic games.
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- Jul 14, 2007
Michelle did the same thing with East of Eden, which she had used as a youngster and for one of her exh's after she went senior....I noticed how the judges didn't seem to mark her as high as they used to with that, which is maybe why she switched back to Rach for SLC?
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