Quality of Spins, Step Sequences, & Spirals prior to CoP

[rochettefan]

what about if skaters were to perform three spins and three spirals separately instead of in sequences. might make it more interesting to be able to put shorter elements at points that work better with the music. skaters could scatter them throughout the program instead of breaking the flow of the music with too long held elements, and be judged on the quality of the position instead of the number of changes of position.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What about Spread Eagles, Falling Leaves, Ina Bauers - all pushed aside to transitions. Only the Spiral gets base value and plus or minus points.

IMO, most are tacky and downright ugly with that club foot appearace.

Joe

 

[vlaurend]

Spirals, imo, are the most overrated element in figure skating. True, holding an edge or a flat, whatever the case may be is not easy and it is definitely more difficult when a smooth change of edge is involved, but centering spins are the most difficult tasks for a skater to do and it makes spirals' difficulties look plebian.

Spirals belong in the 'Moves in the Field' or Transitions if you will along side of Spread Eagles and their difficult changes of edge.

And most spirals, imo, are not pleasant to look at. It's also a nice rest period during the routine.

Joe

Proof that you have never actually tried a spiral! Especially not a catch foot spiral with the free foot higher than the head, which requires so much balance and opposing tension between the skating leg, free leg and back that you often see even national and world level skaters lose control of the position.

Yes, you can "rest" and "breathe" during an unsupported spiral position, but in level 3 or 4 sequences, there is typically only one unsupported position out of the three. On any of the difficult variations of position, there is so much strength and tension required that you really can't breathe or you can mess it up.

Incidentally, I do spread eagles, Ina Bauers and spirals in my program, and the difficult spiral variations are by far the most difficult of those moves. And although I wouldn't mind getting actual points for my Ina Bauers and spread eagles, I'm not sure it would be a good idea to give points for them because a lot of people have congenitally closed hip joints and will never be able to do them without damaging their knees. With spirals, it's just a matter of stretching the muscles and ligaments; it isn't structural.

 

[silver.blades]

I think it would be a good idea to eliminate the spiral sequence and add a moves in the field sequence. Then spread egales, ina bauers, spirals, shoot the ducks, hydroblades, drags and variations on the various movements. This would add more variety in the sequences, allow for the choreo to fit the music better and allow skaters to work with the moves they do best. Some skaters have awful spirals, but nice spread egales or ina bauers. The difficulty of spirals vs other moves in the field and other elements depends on the skater. I find spirals quite easy to do and less taxing than spins or jumps or any other MIF, most of which I can't do. The spirals in my program are a break, although they might nopt be for others.
I don't see why spirals should be valued over other MIF. I personally prefer spread egals and ina bauers in choreo.

 

[Bennett]

Incidentally, I do spread eagles, Ina Bauers and spirals in my program, and the difficult spiral variations are by far the most difficult of those moves. And although I wouldn't mind getting actual points for my Ina Bauers and spread eagles, I'm not sure it would be a good idea to give points for them because a lot of people have congenitally closed hip joints and will never be able to do them without damaging their knees. With spirals, it's just a matter of stretching the muscles and ligaments; it isn't structural.

I find it more difficult to do Ina Bauers and spread eagles than spirals. My back is relatively flexible but the hop joint is not. But I've seen a lot of guys who have miserable spiral positions without any decent turnout (when they try them for practice purposes) doing ina bauers and spread eagles very beautifully. I wonder if there's any difference between males and females in the bone structure or something to make one of these easier than others.
Also a lot of female skaters cannot possibly do some of the difficult variations like the biellman and Y- or I-shaped spiral because of their limited flexibility.
But I feel that if you are very flexible and have a good balance that you have gained through perhaps training in ballet, spirals may not be very difficult.
So I think that flexibility is a key in both spirals and the moves in the field.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I agree with silverblades that moves in the field should be valid elements in the spiral "step" sequence.

 

[Buttercup]

I think it would be a good idea to eliminate the spiral sequence and add a moves in the field sequence. Then spread egales, ina bauers, spirals, shoot the ducks, hydroblades, drags and variations on the various movements. This would add more variety in the sequences, allow for the choreo to fit the music better and allow skaters to work with the moves they do best.

Yes! That would be really excellent. Totally agree about such a change adding variety and improvibg choreo, whuch would be great for figure skating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I agree with silverblades that moves in the field should be valid elements in the spiral "step" sequence.

I agree totally. Much more interesting to see an ina bauer, or a change edge spread eagle than a catch foot spiral. The moves in field are so much more aesthetically appealing, and imo, as difficult. They all have flexibility too, if that's, the flavor of the month.

Joe

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Technicaly they're better, but artisticly they have gone down in some cases. I'm escpecially thinking about Stephane Lambiel's spins. The problem is that with these elements, if one wants to get the points, all of them have to be technicaly high, so there's all that much room for artistry.
To be more precise, take Stephane. he can do level 4 spins and beautiful creative ones. yet the creative ones aren't the most difficult. So instead of doing one level 4 spin, just to show that he knows how too, plus another "artistic" spin, he has to always do the had one thus leaving no or little space for creation if he wants to get the points.

 

[gkelly]

I would like to see the following changes:

Define a field moves sequence type of element that could include spirals but would have to include at least two spread eagles, Ina Bauers, or shoot-the-duck moves (could be two different edges/directions of the same kind of move)

Require one step sequence and one spiral sequence or field moves sequence in the SP (maybe both men and ladies would have a choice of either of the latter, or maybe ladies would still be required to do spirals and men would be required to do "field moves" although then you'd have to define it in such a way that men who don't have turned-out hips and can't do Ina Bauers or spread eagles could still meet the requirements

In the LP give both men and ladies in the choice of two step sequences or one step sequence and one spiral or field moves sequence, or maybe allow a total of three such sequences (at the expense of one fewer jump or spin)

Allow skaters to choose to do one more spin, at the expense of one jump pass

Adjust the Scale of Values so that it's always more valuable to increase the average GOE by one step than to add one more feature to earn the next level (i.e., always reward quality over difficulty, although the total score for achieving both quality and difficulty will still be highest)

Add a level between the current levels 1 and 2 so that there is a reward for doing just one feature in comparison to doing no features

If all those changes to the rules and point values were adopted, the basic mechanisms of the current system would stay the same, but many of the negative effects that fans complain about should be mitigated -- there would be more variety between programs; there would be more opportunity for skaters to play to their own strengths and show individuality; there would be more incentive to do simple things well

 

[vlaurend]

I find it more difficult to do Ina Bauers and spread eagles than spirals. My back is relatively flexible but the hop joint is not. But I've seen a lot of guys who have miserable spiral positions without any decent turnout (when they try them for practice purposes) doing ina bauers and spread eagles very beautifully. I wonder if there's any difference between males and females in the bone structure or something to make one of these easier than others.
Also a lot of female skaters cannot possibly do some of the difficult variations like the biellman and Y- or I-shaped spiral because of their limited flexibility.
But I feel that if you are very flexible and have a good balance that you have gained through perhaps training in ballet, spirals may not be very difficult.
So I think that flexibility is a key in both spirals and the moves in the field.

Yes, flexibility is required for both, but it's a different type of flexibility. The type of flexibility required for spread eagles and Ina Bauers is structural and unchangeable, whereas the flexibility required for full split spirals and Biellmann spirals (at least the modified one-arm hold position, which doesn't require a lot of back bend) is something that can be attained by regular stretching. That's why I feel that it's a little dangerous to pressure skaters to try to do spread eagles and Ina Bauers and better to have them go for the spiral positions.

Incidentally, open vs. closed hips is not a gender-related trait, it's just hereditary, like attached vs. unattached earlobes. My coach, who is male, has never been able to do a spread eagle, and I also know girls who are otherwise very flexible but just don't get turnout in their hips. The difference between those who have turnout and those don't is the structure/location of the hip joints. Some people are born with the hip joints placed a little more to the outside and others are born with hip joints placed a little more to the inside.

BTW, I think it's OK if they decide to allow other types of gliding moves instead of spirals as part of the spiral sequence. However, it will make it more complicated to determine what features on what moves count as level-raising features.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sasha Cohen, Queen of he 180 degree Spiral, btw, never took ballet classes. She took acrobatics which demands more flexibility. Ballet dancers of today, use the acrobatic floor splits as warm ups, which are not in ballet class.

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

My problem with CoP and spirals is in pairs. I feel that the most beautiful death spiral is one without any change-of-hands; to me, it looks like the guy just got tired of holding the girl's hand and needed a switch. I now often find that I'm enjoying the death spirals of the lesser-ranked pairs that do a straight forward spiral - not too many points, but more beautiful by far.

 

[hockeyfan228]

My problem with CoP and spirals is in pairs. I feel that the most beautiful death spiral is one without any change-of-hands; to me, it looks like the guy just got tired of holding the girl's hand and needed a switch. I now often find that I'm enjoying the death spirals of the lesser-ranked pairs that do a straight forward spiral - not too many points, but more beautiful by far.

I agree with you about the death spiral. It really does look like the guy said to himself, boy my shoulder and wrist are sore, better change arms. I half expected the men to start shaking out the the first hand, once it was free.