Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Sam-Skwantch]

Also…I’ve now rewatched that Gubanova team event SP tonight like 6 times now

https://youtu.be/lQHvQavavtE?si=fJQb837DAjlWhhiE

Absolute legend

 

[Mathman]

I think that the reason we cannot reach a consensus is that we are trying to derive an "ought" from an "is."" We Vulcans are cautious about arguments of this form.

 

[4everchan]

I think that the reason we cannot reach a consensus is that we are trying to derive an "ought" from an "is."" We Vulcans are cautious about arguments of this form.

A consensus ? Between fans ? How? Federations are appealing. Information is not entirely disclosed. This case has been heard at CAS... The athlete banned is a fan favourite. Doping has always divided, some people even think it should be allowed.
It's perfectly normal that it's dividing fans.

 

[Mathman]

A consensus ? Between fans ? How? Federations are appealing. Information is not entirely disclosed. This case has been heard at CAS... The athlete banned is a fan favourite. Doping has always divided, some people even think it should be allowed.
It's perfectly normal that it's dividing fans.

That was my point. It is no use pretending that logic has anything to do with it.

 

[Sjs5572]

We’re so far off topic

But only kinda cuz.., Gubs SP IMO should have placed 3rd (or higher) costing Canada points. Twas a total rip IMO and as a result consequently impacting this discussion,

I really couldn’t care less if Canada or Russia wins bronze here because as far as I’m concerned both the remaining Russians and Canadians all are deserving, YMMV

Have you ever seen Gubanova in person? Her ice coverage and speed is less than impressive. This could explain her placements.

 

[midori green]

Interview with Vincent Zhou:

He speaks about the ruling about halfway through and his desire for a medal ceremony at the end.



The rest of it is his history and his experience in Beijing, although not relevant here, I am impressed by how mature and well spoken Vincent is. College agrees with him.

Interesting to think that Vincent wouldn't have been able to attend the original medal ceremony (had it happened). He will now...eventually...hopefully...be able to stand with his teammates when they all get their medals.

 

[yelyoh]

A thoughtful and sensitive and revealing moment with Vincent. I know there was also an article or video where he spoke about emotional challenges. I didn't read/see it. This is good though. I like his hair this way too.

 

[dorispulaski]

Perhaps Russia should consider participating in Billionaire Peter Thiel's Doping Allowed Olympics?

Billionaire Peter Thiel Backs Doping-Friendly Olympics Rival — What To Know About The ‘Enhanced Games’

“Sports can be safer without drug testing,” the Enhanced Games claims, adding its reformed contest will let “athletes become superheroes.”

www.forbes.com

Right now, skating is not included, but perhaps in the future.

 

[Arwen17]

Perhaps Russia should consider participating in Billionaire Peter Thiel's Doping Allowed Olympics?

Billionaire Peter Thiel Backs Doping-Friendly Olympics Rival — What To Know About The ‘Enhanced Games’

“Sports can be safer without drug testing,” the Enhanced Games claims, adding its reformed contest will let “athletes become superheroes.”

www.forbes.com

Right now, skating is not included, but perhaps in the future.

That's fascinating and I would be interested in seeing the results. But the big issue is so many of these drugs aren't safe health-wise.... But bodybuilders use unsafe drugs all the time, and since they're adults, they can do whatever they want to their body. When it's a sport full of children, that is much more questionable to treat them as a science experiment.

As far as I know, bodybuilders don't start training until they are adults. Whereas most Olympic sports are started as very young children and that's why they become so good by the time they are in their late teens or early twenties . It's not something you can start late. And if you can't start training late, there's no guarantee the drugs are only being used when they hit adulthood or age of consent or whatever.

 

[Mathman]

I can beat Peter Thiel at his own game: the robot Olympics. Who can build the biggest, baddest machine super hero and win the "man of steel" award.

 

[beachmouse]

This paragraph caught my eye.

"Several of Chegin's suspended athletes, including Sergey Bakulin, Elena Lashmanovaand Ekaterina Medvedevaapparently competed in a race on 30 December 2014 according to photographs collected by Canadian race walker Evan Dunfee.[13]Russian officials claim the photographs are from a 2012 event and released additional photographs which show different athletes on the awards stands. Although it is impossible to be from 2012 as the Running Shoes used, were not released by Asicsuntil after 2012."

I imagine that "Russian officials" would do the same for a famous figure skating coach as for a famous racewalking coach.

Although -- is it credible that no one besdes a sneaky Canadian walker knows who competed in that race and who stood on the podium? Is racewalking really that obscur that no records are even kept?

Even Dunfee didn’t compete in the race- he was back in Canada at the time and that competition was a domestic one limited to Russian athletes. But elite race walking is one of those ‘everyone knows everyone’ and everyone follows what’s happening when anyone posts some race results somewhere on the intrawebs. And the meet management made the mistake of posting race results including pictures on , IIRC, a Russian sports web site that Dunfee often checked because he was interested in what Chegin’s (unbanned) athletes were doing, which led to ‘why are Sergey and Elena racing when they’re under suspension?’

Dunfee discussed those race photos and pictures on the race walking blog he was writing at the time, and then his blog post got linked on the influential track and field web site Letsrun.com and then the Russians claimed they were ‘old photos and results that were accidentally posted as 2014 results’ which led to the IAAF having to answer the question of whether the top that Elena was wearing in the photos was actually manufactured by ASICS in 2012. (Answer- no, it wasn’t made until 2014.)

The posters on the Let’s Run message board (don’t go there unless you want to deal with nastiness- it’s not nicely and properly moderated like GS is) are mostly American and dubbed it ‘Shoegate’ as there’s an American tendency to want every scandal name to sound like Watergate.

 

[4everchan]

Even Dunfee didn’t compete in the race- he was back in Canada at the time and that competition was a domestic one limited to Russian athletes. But elite race walking is one of those ‘everyone knows everyone’ and everyone follows what’s happening when anyone posts some race results somewhere on the intrawebs. And the meet management made the mistake of posting race results including pictures on , IIRC, a Russian sports web site that Dunfee often checked because he was interested in what Chegin’s (unbanned) athletes were doing, which led to ‘why are Sergey and Elena racing when they’re under suspension?’

Dunfee discussed those race photos and pictures on the race walking blog he was writing at the time, and then his blog post got linked on the influential track and field web site Letsrun.com and then the Russians claimed they were ‘old photos and results that were accidentally posted as 2014 results’ which led to the IAAF having to answer the question of whether the top that Elena was wearing in the photos was actually manufactured by ASICS in 2012. (Answer- no, it wasn’t made until 2014.)

The posters on the Let’s Run message board (don’t go there unless you want to deal with nastiness- it’s not nicely and properly moderated like GS is) are mostly American and dubbed it ‘Shoegate’ as there’s an American tendency to want every scandal name to sound like Watergate.

Kudos to Evan Dunfee for protecting his sport.

 

[icewhite]

That's fascinating and I would be interested in seeing the results. But the big issue is so many of these drugs aren't safe health-wise.... But bodybuilders use unsafe drugs all the time, and since they're adults, they can do whatever they want to their body. When it's a sport full of children, that is much more questionable to treat them as a science experiment.

As far as I know, bodybuilders don't start training until they are adults. Whereas most Olympic sports are started as very young children and that's why they become so good by the time they are in their late teens or early twenties . It's not something you can start late. And if you can't start training late, there's no guarantee the drugs are only being used when they hit adulthood or age of consent or whatever.

The results? People with heavy damage to organs and bones. Infertility. Children with disabilities. Cancer. Heart attacks. Strokes. But since only people with some serious personality disorders or other mental issues would take part they would likely go to extremes and we would see people actually dropping dead in or shortly after competitions.
It is an insane idea by ruthless people for athletes with mental health problems and an audience without understanding or humanity.

 

[jenaj]

When will this nightmare end? Unfortunately, the more yelling screaming and crying in the end figure skating will lose no matter what. Since 2002 figure skating has continued to lose viewership and interest. I just feel bad for everyone including Kamilla. Happy USA and Japan will get their medals. Not sure what to think about Russia getting bronze over Canada. Still pretty amazing how they lose 20 pts and are still in contention for a medal.

The problem, of course, is that those 20 points were placement points that should have been reallocated.

 

[beachmouse]

The results? People with heavy damage to organs and bones. Infertility. Children with disabilities. Cancer. Heart attacks. Strokes. But since only people with some serious personality disorders or other mental issues would take part they would likely go to extremes and we would see people actually dropping dead in or shortly after competitions.
It is an insane idea by ruthless people for athletes with mental health problems and an audience without understanding or humanity.

The Germans have done a number of truth and reconciliation reports on the DDR’s systemic doping of athletes, often promising children, during the 1970s and 1980s. The children who were told they were getting ‘vitamin shots’ have often suffered from health problems their entire lives as a result.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The problem, of course, is that those 20 points were placement points that should have been reallocated.

Is there a rule that states this somewhere or are we saying “should” as a matter of opinion? Removing Kamila’s 20pts from the team score in a team event is IMO a consequential penalty to her teammates. It’s definitely a significant impact to lose 20 of a total 74 points. That’s almost 30% of the total score if my head math is correct.

Mostly just curious because given Olympic history in all sports I’m surprised that there wouldn’t be a rule in place to address disqualifications on an event and have steps in place to address them. I know everyone tested clean at the Olympics but there has to be a measure in place to address if someone had failed one “in competition”. Does it also factor into how the discipline is dished out whether or not the failed test was at the Olympics or prior to the Olympics taking place? A lot of variables at hand here.

 

[Diana Delafield]

The results? People with heavy damage to organs and bones. Infertility. Children with disabilities. Cancer. Heart attacks. Strokes. But since only people with some serious personality disorders or other mental issues would take part they would likely go to extremes and we would see people actually dropping dead in or shortly after competitions.
It is an insane idea by ruthless people for athletes with mental health problems and an audience without understanding or humanity.

There was an article last year in one of the digital newspapers I get (sorry I can't remember which one, but I think if was either the New York Times or the Washington Post) about a woman who took up bodybuilding as an adult. She was coerced into taking "performance enhancing" drugs by her abusive boyfriend/coach and also developed an eating disorder. She now has all those life-threatening physical health problems without ever admitting the obvious mental problems, apart from the low self-esteem that started it all. She admitted she had just craved an award for something, anything. And you look at the pictures of her in so-called competition and wonder: "Why on earth would anyone want to get a prize for looking grotesque?"

 

[4everchan]

Is there a rule that states this somewhere or are we saying “should” as a matter of opinion?

I guess you still haven't watched Michael Slipchuk's interview. Yes, there are rules. Apparently, they moved up the women following KV's D/Q but didn't reallocate points. That's what many of us have been talking about. How can Wakaba for instance, now is in first for her segment, but gets only 9 points ? It should be ten. And so on. So Slipchuk is asking the ISU why they are not following their own rules. He wants to know the rationale behind it. In other words, they are looking to appeal, not based on opinions, but based on the rule book.

Mostly just curious because given Olympic history in all sports I’m surprised that there wouldn’t be a rule in place to address disqualifications on an event and have steps in place to address them. I know everyone tested clean at the Olympics but there has to be a measure in place to address if someone had failed one “in competition”. Does it also factor into how the discipline is dished out whether or not the failed test was at the Olympics or prior to the Olympics taking place? A lot of variables at hand here.

The date of a failed test doesn't matter. "Clean at the Olympics" has no impact if there is a positive test from a couple months before. The sample could have been taken in training, in the off-season or in competition. Doesn't make any difference. As a matter of fact, many athletes get caught during the off-season. The point for random testing and off-season testing is exactly to avoid people using drugs for a little while, to gain an advantage, withdraw from the drugs and go to their events, where they already expect to be tested, avoiding a positive test.
Some of these drugs do not get detected for very long... only traces are left after some time. It is still very possible to cheat and not get caught. So that's why when someone is caught, they better have a good explanation, which in this case, has been judged not convincing.

The rules are there. Again, if you dared watching Slipchuk's interviews (he's made more than one) Skate Canada, from the rule book, knew already that the whole ROC team wouldn't get D/Q. They were just waiting to see what the CAS judgment would be. As they ruled about a 4 year ban and stripping of all results -which is a common ban btw for similar cases, then the ISU should have reallocated these points.

This is why people have been talking about this so much... What is the rationale for the ISU to move up the women one spot in the team event results but not reallocate the points?

You may see this as a loss of 20 points for the ROC team, but in fact, it's not. By not reallocating the ranking points, Valieva still retains 2 points on everyone on the field.

I hope this summary helps. I can understand, with so many posts in that thread, that people are getting confused about the rules and perhaps imagine that it's just fans ranting based on nationalistic preferences. It's not about that.

For me, it's not even about Canada, It's about doping a child. I think the consequences should be much heavier in order for this to never happen again. Yes, I am naïve.. but that's my wish for the sport I love. Considering it starts from a very young age, it has to be safe, clean and healthy.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I’m not looking for a summary or stated opinions.. …I’m looking for stated rules from the rule book. Could you please link where it says that points are to be reallocated in a team event in the event of an athlete’s disqualification.

Thanks in advance because I couldn’t find it. This would really clear things up at least for someone like myself.

 

[4everchan]

I’m not looking for a summary or stated opinions.. …I’m looking for stated rules from the rule book. Could you please link where it says points are to be reallocated in a team event in the event of an athlete’s disqualification.

Thanks in advance because I couldn’t find it. This would really clear things up at least for someone like myself.

I believe @Jumping_Bean shared them before in this thread. Ask them. (since you don't seem to trust Michael Slpchuk to be aware of what he is talking about in his interviews)