2024 Worlds: Ice Dance thoughts and comments

[rain]

Well
. Figure skaters are not supposed to replicate exactly the stories and characters. because well.. holy Batman!

They've explained many times and Carol Lane has explained that this is not a literal retelling of the story. I have no issues with skaters taking music and inspiration and making something new of it.

 

[TallyT]

They didn't have to turn it onto a overblown subHarlequinesqe bodice ripper laced with Fremdschämen mugging though. They should be - and they are, their previous programs show they are - better than that. Bowing out now because I think my tact button is broke. And as I said, I know I'm alone.

 

[Mathman]

Here's Kate Bush, whoever might be interested to see and compare

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Now that was truly scary. I looked up the lyirics:

Out on the wily, windy moors
We'd roll and fall in green
You had a temper like my jealousy
Too hot, too greedy
How could you leave me
When I needed to possess you?
I hated you, I loved you, too. (etc.)

Very true to the book, in my judgment. Now they can re-enact the scene where Heathcliff hangs a puppy to get revenge on all the people that had abused him as a young man.

But as for ice dance, sure, people can skate to music that they like without requiring the program to connect to the literary source -- and be judged by factors like speed and ice coverage.

But I shudder to think what a skater like Evgenia Medvedeva , who went in for litteral story telling and miming, would make of this theme.

 

[Sai Bon]

I couldn't watch all of it live, but what a great event! Thrilled for LaLa, loved both their SP and FD. Enjoyed the Italians (perhaps they were a little flat because of Marco's illness, and I nearly had a heart attack when Charlene ripped her dress in the FD, but good for them to skate through that). Mesmerized by Piper and Paul's FD - I much prefer Paul's darker shirt, I found the pink one very distracting and unflattering. I'm not a fan of Chock and Bates (too much posing, too much reliance on Madison's diva qualities), but expected them to win, which they did. Excited about some of the younger teams including Lim & Quan, the French and Czech teams), but it might be a long slog ahead for them because of the longevity of some of the top teams.

 

[Magill]

Now that was truly scary. I looked up the lyirics:

Out on the wily, windy moors
We'd roll and fall in green
You had a temper like my jealousy
Too hot, too greedy
How could you leave me
When I needed to possess you?
I hated you, I loved you, too. (etc.)

Very true to the book, in my judgment. Now they can re-enact the scene where Heathcliff hangs a puppy to get revenge on all the people that had abused him as a young man.

But as for ice dance, sure, people can skate to music that they like without requiring the program to connect to the literary source -- and be judged by factors like speed and ice coverage.

But I shudder to think what a skater like Evgenia Medvedeva , who went in for litteral story telling and miming, would make of this theme.

Oh, no, I did not mean the lyrics which are obviously relating to the book. I meant Kate's facial expressions, obviously and purposefully overdone big scale, even more so as she is singing in the clip. When I saw Piper miming, it immediately reminded me of this. Yet, what Piper was doing looked just like "bad acting" to me, almost grotesque, in a programme which was not meant to be grotesque. But well, every man to his taste.
As for the general question, sure, people can skate to the music without connecting to its literary or historic source at all, but if you decide to take on a classic, so easily recognizable by its title and so unique, and interpreted so many times beforehand, and by artists from different fields, you should not be surprised that people will see it as your interpretation of the source ,material, whether you meant it this way or not. It is just natural. If you know the source, that is.

 

[Mathman]

Anyway, bottom line, there is nothing controversial about the outcome of this competition. For fans who liked Gilles and Poirier's free dance better than what Chock and Bates offered, well, OK, the judges agreed. But only by a point. This was not enough to overcome the lead that C&B had established in the short dance where G&P placed third.

Fear & Gibson and Lajoie and Lahga gave engaging performances, scored well, and can look forward with optimism. Everyone is glad to see Italy make a big move into the top ranks and also achieve a good result in pairs.

 

[slider11]

I think the ending story for me is will all the top 3 teams hang in for the Olympics? It may seem preposterous to some that any would pull out since they are ranked so closely. But the tremendous effort it takes to stay on top has to be weighing on each team's mind. They each may have personal reasons for staying or going. I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that they will all stay.

 

[lariko]

I think the ending story for me is will all the top 3 teams hang in for the Olympics? It may seem preposterous to some that any would pull out since they are ranked so closely. But the tremendous effort it takes to stay on top has to be weighing on each team's mind. They each may have personal reasons for staying or going. I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that they will all stay.

I think it is, save for a disaster. After all, all these three teams stood in the ID queue waiting for their chance to grab the podium after higher teams retire for over a decade. No way they would quit now. It's how ID works. That was the plan. They grind for the gold, not show up and snatch it on raw talent like in other 3 disciplines.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Everyone is glad to see Italy make a big move into the top ranks and also achieve a good result in pairs.

Unrelated but they achieved very poor results in pairs for what they were anticipating. Still only 2 pairs spots for three strong, albeit inconsistent, teams.

I also do think the result in ice dance is controversial, particuarly as I think the result is incorrect two years in a row. But I also accept that its a part of ice dance as a sport, and always has been to an extent. It's just something I accept at the moment, particularly with the ISU choice of themes kind of making sense in the direction the scoring is going.

And I do think ISU is trying to appeal to a certain fanbase. The majority of the public don't care about speed across the ice and edge depth when they watch the shows where celebrities learn to skate with pro skaters - they are fine watching posing and funky moves and lifts whilst moving very slowly. People like that more than they like skating, so I feel that's part of the direction they want to go in to attract new fans.

I think the ending story for me is will all the top 3 teams hang in for the Olympics? It may seem preposterous to some that any would pull out since they are ranked so closely. But the tremendous effort it takes to stay on top has to be weighing on each team's mind. They each may have personal reasons for staying or going. I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion that they will all stay.

I think all want olympic medals, but age is catching up. Madi and Evan are getting slower, and with Evans back injury they are struggling on lifts. With Charlene and Marco, they are losing their incredible consistency a little bit and starting to make errors they didn't used to. Piper and Paul have had difficulties with injury. And now younger couples are starting to breakthrough (such as La/La).

I do think if a team does next season, they'll do olympics barring injury. It's just another year at that point. The big question for me is if they'll do next season.

 

[4everchan]

Oh, no, I did not mean the lyrics which are obviously relating to the book. I meant Kate's facial expressions, obviously and purposefully overdone big scale, even more so as she is singing in the clip. When I saw Piper miming, it immediately reminded me of this. Yet, what Piper was doing looked just like "bad acting" to me, almost grotesque, in a programme which was not meant to be grotesque. But well, every man to his taste.
As for the general question, sure, people can skate to the music without connecting to its literary or historic source at all, but if you decide to take on a classic, so easily recognizable by its title and so unique, and interpreted so many times beforehand, and by artists from different fields, you should not be surprised that people will see it as your interpretation of the source ,material, whether you meant it this way or not. It is just natural. If you know the source, that is.

Piper has been very active "facially" for over a decade. It is who she is and part of how she projects emotion. You can think it's grotesque if you wish but it has nothing to do with this program in particular. Some people sing the lyrics... Some people look down at the ice... Piper is just very facially expressive. At this point, criticizing her about her face is getting a bit out of line in my opinion... It's like if I said, I don't like this skater because their eyebrows are too expressive..... or they smile too much... Let the athletes be human. They are not making a movie. They are not there as actors but as athletes with emotions.

Also, as said many times, there are tons of programs that use soundtracks as canvas to create something else. Piper and Paul and Carol Lane explained exactly what they were after. Already, a soundtrack without any lyrics is NOT on its own telling a story per se. It's simply a musical interpretation of moods. Many people had never heard this soundtrack before, let alone seen the movie, nor read the book. It's so weird that Piper and Paul are getting picked apart about this when so many teams/skaters are not telling any story when using a piece of music. I could give you a billion example where the music and the skating are not related or where the music cuts destroy the piece. (Be careful what you wish for here, we have been over this before! )

To me, the music here is the starting point to a creative process which definitely happened here, like it or not.

Now, do you guys prefer a very literal rendition with boxing, skipping rope and push ups ? And if you do, fair enough.

 

[icewhite]

Anyway, bottom line, there is nothing controversial about the outcome of this competition. For fans who liked Gilles and Poirier's free dance better than what Chock and Bates offered, well, OK, the judges agreed. But only by a point. This was not enough to overcome the lead that C&B had established in the short dance where G&P placed third.

Fear & Gibson and Lajoie and Lahga gave engaging performances, scored well, and can look forward with optimism. Everyone is glad to see Italy make a big move into the top ranks and also achieve a good result in pairs.

Not controversial? How do you come to that conclusion? I totally disagree with the result.

 

[Magill]

Piper has been very active "facially" for over a decade. It is who she is and part of how she projects emotion. You can think it's grotesque if you wish but it has nothing to do with this program in particular. Some people sing the lyrics... Some people look down at the ice... Piper is just very facially expressive. At this point, criticizing her about her face is getting a bit out of line in my opinion... It's like if I said, I don't like this skater because their eyebrows are too expressive..... or they smile too much... Let the athletes be human. They are not making a movie. They are not there as actors but as athletes with emotions.

Also, as said many times, there are tons of programs that use soundtracks as canvas to create something else. Piper and Paul and Carol Lane explained exactly what they were after. Already, a soundtrack without any lyrics is NOT on its own telling a story per se. It's simply a musical interpretation of moods. Many people had never heard this soundtrack before, let alone seen the movie, nor read the book. It's so weird that Piper and Paul are getting picked apart about this when so many teams/skaters are not telling any story when using a piece of music. I could give you a billion example where the music and the skating are not related or where the music cuts destroy the piece. (Be careful what you wish for here, we have been over this before! )

To me, the music here is the starting point to a creative process which definitely happened here, like it or not.

Now, do you guys prefer a very literal rendition with boxing, skipping rope and push ups ? And if you do, fair enough.

But of course, she has a right to do it and I have a right to feel it out of place, in general or for a particular program, and not to like it. We're not discussing her way of expressing herself as a private person - I would never comment on it and I have no knowledge of it anyway because I do not follow them as a fan. What we are discussing here is a specific performance. I said I did like the program, but I did not like the miming and it was an unnecessary distraction for me. And no, the gist of my criticism is not that it should have been more literal. Quite to the contrary, this miming was way too literal for me. Sometimes too much is just... well, too much.

 

[4everchan]

But of course, she has a right to do it and I have a right to feel it out of place, in general or for a particular program, and not to like it. We're not discussing her way of expressing herself as a private person - I would never comment on it and I have no knowledge of it anyway because I do not follow them as a fan. What we are discussing here is a specific performance. I said I did like the program, but I did not like the miming and it was an unnecessary distraction for me. And no, the gist of my criticism is not that it should have been more literal. Quite to the contrary, this miming was way too literal for me. Sometimes too much is just... well, too much.

literal of what ? When they have said they are not following the story... and you brought up a piece of music that has nothing to do with the soundtrack they chose ? Perhaps you have a personal connection with the Bronte book and everything that came out of it later on, movies and songs and soundtrack... but as they said, they created their own piece with it... so how can it be too literal ? I don't understand what you are saying, maybe I am just too tired from spending an entire week at Bell Centre.

 

[4everchan]

Not controversial? How do you come to that conclusion? I totally disagree with the result.

I disagree with the results as well. I think the judges handed the gold medal in the RD and I dislike that very much. Is it a controversy ? I think we have seen way worse, so maybe I am immune to it... What I can tell you is that nobody will ever convince me ever again that Piper and Paul are slower than other teams and shouldn't win because of that, when in the FD, they were faster than everyone else in the final flight except for LaLa. So that never ending criticism of how slow they are can die now. It's a big lie

 

[Cutting the ice]

A comment on facial expressions in ice dance. Please remember that those of us watching the competition on streaming services may be frequently viewing close-ups of the skaters' faces, whereas those at the rink are a more distant audience, like stage theatre. So to reach that audience (which includes the judges), the skaters need to emote more (just like actors in the theatre). We see some pretty "over-the-top" facial expressions during the choreography sequence in front of the judges from just about all the teams. I like to see the skaters stay in character through the dance and so appreciate Piper and Paul's attempts to do that.

 

[4everchan]

A comment on facial expressions in ice dance. Please remember that those of us watching the competition on streaming services may be frequently viewing close-ups of the skaters' faces, whereas those at the rink are a more distant audience, like stage theatre. So to reach that audience (which includes the judges), the skaters need to emote more (just like actors in the theatre). We see some pretty "over-the-top" facial expressions during the choreography sequence in front of the judges from just about all the teams. I like to see the skaters stay in character through the dance and so appreciate Piper and Paul's attempts to do that.

100 percent. Where I was sitting, we get the amazing view of ice coverage and how skaters make their patterns on the ice. We get the feeling of speed too. It's pretty hard to see the faces though.... very different experience from watching online or on tv... I like both for different reasons.

 

[Diana Delafield]

A comment on facial expressions in ice dance. Please remember that those of us watching the competition on streaming services may be frequently viewing close-ups of the skaters' faces, whereas those at the rink are a more distant audience, like stage theatre. So to reach that audience (which includes the judges), the skaters need to emote more (just like actors in the theatre). We see some pretty "over-the-top" facial expressions during the choreography sequence in front of the judges from just about all the teams. I like to see the skaters stay in character through the dance and so appreciate Piper and Paul's attempts to do that.

Having spent many, many years as a semi-professional singer, I couldn't agree more. In musical theatre and opera, you play to the back row of the top balcony, not to your fellow performers on stage with you. It never occurred to me to think that Piper over-emotes, just that the camera puts the viewer closer to her face than the live audience sees. Some trained theatre actors have problems switching to the more intimate film (and vice versa). The worst example that sticks permanently in my mind was Angela Pleasence playing Catherine Howard in the TV series The Six Wives of Henry VIII, emoting even in ordinary conversation to an audience far beyond the camera lens right in her face.

 

[Magill]

literal of what ? When they have said they are not following the story... and you brought up a piece of music that has nothing to do with the soundtrack they chose ? Perhaps you have a personal connection with the Bronte book and everything that came out of it later on, movies and songs and soundtrack... but as they said, they created their own piece with it... so how can it be too literal ? I don't understand what you are saying, maybe I am just too tired from spending an entire week at Bell Centre.

Too literal in expressing emotions of their choice. They are more subtle ways to convey emotions than, excuse the word, making faces. And, no, Piper did it way more than some others, or maybe it fitted the context worse, and that's why I found it overdone. I just prefer more subtle, or maybe just better performed, ways of expression. Also in the theatre and on stage there are different ways to do it, some just more subtle or simply better fitting the context than some others. But as I said earlier, every man to his taste. I guess we just agree to disagree.
And, no, I have no personal connection to Bronte book whatever you might mean by this. It is not even among my top favourite books. But I did read it.. And it is a powerful story in the British culture so when you use its title for your own work, you obviously position yourself in the long line of those who presented their take on it before. It is just too powerful a story, too unique a title to believe you can just dismiss a connection.
You do not want people to make the connection, choose some other piece of music.
Now let me bow out of this discussion as I do not think any one of us can say anything new on the subject and no need to derail the thread.

 

[4everchan]

Too literal in expressing emotions of their choice. They are more subtle ways to convey emotions than, excuse the word, making faces. And, no, Piper did it way more than some others, or maybe it fitted the context worse, and that's why I found it overdone. I just prefer more subtle, or maybe just better performed, ways of expression. Also in the theatre and on stage there are different ways to do it, some just more subtle or simply better fitting the context than some others. But as I said earlier, every man to his taste. I guess we just agree to disagree.
And, no, I have no personal connection to Bronte book whatever you might mean by this. It is not even among my top favourite books. But I did read it.. And it is a powerful story in the British culture so when you use its title for your own work, you obviously position yourself in the long line of those who presented their take on it before. It is just too powerful a story, too unique a title to believe you can just dismiss a connection.
You do not want people to make the connection, choose some other piece of music.
Now let me bow out of this discussion as I do not think any one of us can say anything new on the subject and no need to derail the thread.

of course we will agree to disagree and taste is personal. no problem with that... however, there is something to clarify... how else would they call their free dance ? they chose a soundtrack that is the soundtrack of a movie called like that... LaLa skated to a piece called Roses... would you think it was about pretty but thorny flowers when you saw it ? FBS skated to NDP.. however, chose to focus on songs that are less popular than le temps des cathédrales for instance... is that wrong ? How should they call their FD ? Does it have anything to do with the actual story : they said nope.. they are doing their own story focusing on one character... etc don't quote me on this... I remember reading about it a long time ago and I don't remember everything.

My point is that you are totally allowed to like or not like a free dance... but if the reason is about linking or not to a title, a book or a soundtrack, then most teams use the music or themes as inspiration but do not pretend to interpret really what is expected...

I loved L/B RD on Mylène Farmer... not sure the marionette idea has anything much to do with the song does it ?

(no need to reply... I respect that you are opting to bow out from this conversation... I am just not ready to do so myself)

 

[lariko]

A comment on facial expressions in ice dance. Please remember that those of us watching the competition on streaming services may be frequently viewing close-ups of the skaters' faces, whereas those at the rink are a more distant audience, like stage theatre. So to reach that audience (which includes the judges), the skaters need to emote more (just like actors in the theatre). We see some pretty "over-the-top" facial expressions during the choreography sequence in front of the judges from just about all the teams. I like to see the skaters stay in character through the dance and so appreciate Piper and Paul's attempts to do that.

This is why we go to practices and sit right by the boards! The difference between the dancers skating between elements they want to practice and when they turn it on is literally like a dark room and the floodlight! I love that precise moment they flip the switch.

This is, by the way, how I got Mom to see Lopareva/Brissau's perfection, by sitting close and seeing what they are doing.

And, yeah, I know, like 99% of viewers disagree, but I am so sold on their programs, it's not even funny. Amazing tension. Genius. Like a taught string or a dagger standing on a point.