- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
I think my post is pretty clear if you read it fully
In any case, moving on. I am about to go work out and considering I have been reading this thread, I am now hoping I don't fall off the treadmill.
How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?
- Thread starter el henry
- Start date
In any case, moving on. I am about to go work out and considering I have been reading this thread, I am now hoping I don't fall off the treadmill.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That's the trouble with communication. Like pairs skating it takes two. No matter how clear the speaker is, if the listener doesn't hold up his end it all collapses in a heap. I will try harder to hold up my end in the future.I think my post is pretty clear if you read it fully
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2022
I knew that's what you meant. When I started UBC, I thought of a degree in singing but couldn't pass the physical. Music Performance and PE were the only faculties then that required a pre-registration health exam, and I was deemed too prone to colds and bronchitis. I was just remembering being taught about Lully's death from stabbing himself in the foot with his conducting staff as being "the ultimate music injury".
Also not quite what you meant, but I was singing in the Mozart Requiem years ago, with the Ottawa Choral Society, and as they started the Dies Irae and the soprano section hit their opening high whatever-it-is (G? A?), which is "Rex!" and a fiendish vowel to sing fortissimo that high as your first note, there was a yelp and a kerfuffle in the choir. Sitting in the front with the other soloists, I couldn't turn around to look and thought maybe someone had fallen off the risers (which I've also seen happen in a choir). We learned later one of the soprani had tried too hard and dislocated her jaw. She had to be bundled offstage and treated by the NAC first aid people, who had to call an ambulance and get her to the nearest ER.
'Scuse the digression from skating woes.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2022
Or as my partner said to me one day when I was being about as much use as a shopping cart with a wobbly wheel, "Look, if I wanted to just carry somebody around while I practised, I'd have brought my little niece as a treat! Are you going to skate your part today, or did you just feel like getting towed around by the hand?"
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
Never heard about health exams to enter music school. I guess I am a couple generations younger. But, if you did have a chronic bronchitis history, it was a good move to eliminate that career choice.
Another common singing woe : fainting while singing. The variation in blood pressure can cause it. It's relatively frequent.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2022
I managed a part-time career, but it was with Toronto Conservatory training rather than a university degree. UBC's reasoning at the time was that you needed good health and stamina to sustain a travelling career and be responsible about honouring your commitments.
Didn't know about the blood pressure connection. Never fainted myself, but the one time I sang Papagena in The Magic Flute, my baritone Papageno did while we were rattling our way through the patter-song duet. I just figured he'd tightened up on his breathing concentrating on his lyrics, and run out of oxygen
Single skating is a topic on its own. Excessive repetition of triple jumps and quad jumps practises are destroying cartilago of joints, leading to stress fractures and many other chronic injuries. Not to forget all acute injuries.
But I am not sure what ISU can do in this case. Lowering base value of quads - done. Increasing minimal age to avoid prepubertal jumping stars - done. How much it will persuade kids with parents and coaching teams that they shouldn't pressure quad in such young age, who knows.
I believe we have increasing number of stress fractures and serious injuries in single skating past 20 years. We have most of quad ladies retiring or "taking time off" in the age of 18 - 19 because of injuries. Rika Kihira with stress fracture and re-injury. Ilia Malinin with multiple stress fractures of spine and leg in past. And Russian quad children with injuries...Those are all skaters executing quads in teenage years.
ICE DANCE LIFTS: part 3
5) OVERLOADED MUSCLES and JOINTS IN UPPER LIMB (without stress fractures)
Ice dancers are executing acrobatic lifts. It means not only strength in legs and core, but also in arms.
If female ice dancers doesn't have strength of upper arms similar to pair ladies, they shouldn't execute some type of lifts.
I also suppose that many men have troubles with shoulder which is usually the result of wrong shoulder and shoulder blade stabilization and overloading of this area. Also picking not suitable type of lift is playing big role.
Katerina Mrazkova had tendinitis of left forearm muscles / wrist joint inflammation in the beginning of 2023 (I expect she underwent Magnetic Resonance to exclude stress fracture).
Mrazeks first two lifts in 2022-23 Free Dance were following:
https://youtu.be/sgdRwsWFH6o?t=59 and https://youtu.be/sgdRwsWFH6o?t=196
One Hand Rotational Lift is a topic on its own. The hand in hand hold creates so big load on Katerina's left upper limb because we have to count not only her weight but also centrifugal force.
In numbers - this One Hand Rotational Lift - one rotation took them around 1.2 second, the distance from his to her centre of gravity around 85 centimetres (thanks to holding hands it is bigger distance in comparison with holding chest). Let's say that Katerina's weight would be 50 kilograms. So centrifugal force working on their upper limb is around 118 Newtons which means over 12 kilograms additionally to her weight.
(Calculation is approximate. Katerina's centre of gravity is probably more far as she is under certain angle while rotating. Distance between partners can be influenced by the length of Daniel's upper limb.)
I would like to suggest ISU to FORBID OR EXCLUDE HAND IN HAND HOLD (being the only point of contact) IN ROTATIONAL OR STATIONARY LIFT because centrifugal force increases the weight of lady (also thanks to big distance between partners and their centre of gravity) and overload for both partners' upper limbs (mainly for lady who has usually smaller strength) is highly prone to injury.
6) PRESSURING TIBIAL TUBEROSITY
This kind of pressuring will influence both quadriceps muscle and its tendon, also patella can be influenced. It may lead to tendinitis or tendinopathy.
And in a very young age tibial tuberosity is more fragile than other bones, it can even fragment from the rest of the bone (osteochondritis dissecans is not unknown in sport).
Today ladies put shin on the men's boot or thigh. Coaches should always make sure that ladies ARE NOT pressuring tibial tuberosity keeping established position.
7) LIFTS IN JUNIOR CATHEGORY
Junior male ice dancers at the age of 20 or 21 have body which is slowly getting into mature shape. But we also have 15 or 16 years old male ice dancers who have visibly much more teenage body including smaller muscle strength, bone immaturity...
Today having acrobatic lifts... strength belongs to one of very important things.
But in ISU rules both junior and senior cathegory has the same criteriums for Level 4 lifts. I don't think it is OK.
I am not talking about bigger difficulties to get Level 4 or lower GOE because of NOT effortless execution.
Overloading from acrobatic lifts is obvious because body has adolescent shape.
Talking about micro traumatic injuries and chronic injuries, their beginning is in early age thanks to wrong technique and / or overloading body. All these patologic things collect and if not in junior age then they will manifest in senior skating age. It will lead to bigger number of injuries and shorten sport career.
I do believe that ISU rules for Lifts in Junior cathegory should be modified into more simple once. In ideal case mainly Lifts with preferable transfer of lady's weight on men's both upper arms, position with partial lady's weight on men's legs and so on.
The problem with Lifts in Junior cathegory comes with the fact that Level 4 lifts CAN be executed with wrong technique. Compare this situation with single skaters and jumps - if you don't have good (or at least decent) technique, no coach will push you to rotate quad. This situation - attempting quad - will come with level of quality in triples. But here we have couples with Level 4 whose age is not allowing them to be in full strength physically, which is needed for acrobatic lifts.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...dolescents_Training_and_physical_conditioning
MUSCLE STRENGTH DEVELOPMENT IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS: TRAINING AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONING
- article from 2008
- "... linear growth of muscle strength with chronological age in males up to 13-14 years of age, after which the growth rate accelerates; ..."
- "Muscle strength increases steadily between age 11 and 16 years in females and between age 17 and 18 in males."
- "Muscle strength of the lower and upper extremities in males peaks about 1.5 years after maximal growth rate."
- "Powerlifting, bodybuilding, and maximal weight lifting in preadolescents and adolescents should be avoided until they have reached skeletal maturity;"
5) OVERLOADED MUSCLES and JOINTS IN UPPER LIMB (without stress fractures)
Ice dancers are executing acrobatic lifts. It means not only strength in legs and core, but also in arms.
If female ice dancers doesn't have strength of upper arms similar to pair ladies, they shouldn't execute some type of lifts.
I also suppose that many men have troubles with shoulder which is usually the result of wrong shoulder and shoulder blade stabilization and overloading of this area. Also picking not suitable type of lift is playing big role.
Katerina Mrazkova had tendinitis of left forearm muscles / wrist joint inflammation in the beginning of 2023 (I expect she underwent Magnetic Resonance to exclude stress fracture).
Mrazeks first two lifts in 2022-23 Free Dance were following:
https://youtu.be/sgdRwsWFH6o?t=59 and https://youtu.be/sgdRwsWFH6o?t=196
One Hand Rotational Lift is a topic on its own. The hand in hand hold creates so big load on Katerina's left upper limb because we have to count not only her weight but also centrifugal force.
In numbers - this One Hand Rotational Lift - one rotation took them around 1.2 second, the distance from his to her centre of gravity around 85 centimetres (thanks to holding hands it is bigger distance in comparison with holding chest). Let's say that Katerina's weight would be 50 kilograms. So centrifugal force working on their upper limb is around 118 Newtons which means over 12 kilograms additionally to her weight.
(Calculation is approximate. Katerina's centre of gravity is probably more far as she is under certain angle while rotating. Distance between partners can be influenced by the length of Daniel's upper limb.)
I would like to suggest ISU to FORBID OR EXCLUDE HAND IN HAND HOLD (being the only point of contact) IN ROTATIONAL OR STATIONARY LIFT because centrifugal force increases the weight of lady (also thanks to big distance between partners and their centre of gravity) and overload for both partners' upper limbs (mainly for lady who has usually smaller strength) is highly prone to injury.
6) PRESSURING TIBIAL TUBEROSITY
This kind of pressuring will influence both quadriceps muscle and its tendon, also patella can be influenced. It may lead to tendinitis or tendinopathy.
And in a very young age tibial tuberosity is more fragile than other bones, it can even fragment from the rest of the bone (osteochondritis dissecans is not unknown in sport).
Today ladies put shin on the men's boot or thigh. Coaches should always make sure that ladies ARE NOT pressuring tibial tuberosity keeping established position.
7) LIFTS IN JUNIOR CATHEGORY
Junior male ice dancers at the age of 20 or 21 have body which is slowly getting into mature shape. But we also have 15 or 16 years old male ice dancers who have visibly much more teenage body including smaller muscle strength, bone immaturity...
Today having acrobatic lifts... strength belongs to one of very important things.
But in ISU rules both junior and senior cathegory has the same criteriums for Level 4 lifts. I don't think it is OK.
I am not talking about bigger difficulties to get Level 4 or lower GOE because of NOT effortless execution.
Overloading from acrobatic lifts is obvious because body has adolescent shape.
Talking about micro traumatic injuries and chronic injuries, their beginning is in early age thanks to wrong technique and / or overloading body. All these patologic things collect and if not in junior age then they will manifest in senior skating age. It will lead to bigger number of injuries and shorten sport career.
I do believe that ISU rules for Lifts in Junior cathegory should be modified into more simple once. In ideal case mainly Lifts with preferable transfer of lady's weight on men's both upper arms, position with partial lady's weight on men's legs and so on.
The problem with Lifts in Junior cathegory comes with the fact that Level 4 lifts CAN be executed with wrong technique. Compare this situation with single skaters and jumps - if you don't have good (or at least decent) technique, no coach will push you to rotate quad. This situation - attempting quad - will come with level of quality in triples. But here we have couples with Level 4 whose age is not allowing them to be in full strength physically, which is needed for acrobatic lifts.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...dolescents_Training_and_physical_conditioning
MUSCLE STRENGTH DEVELOPMENT IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS: TRAINING AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONING
- article from 2008
- "... linear growth of muscle strength with chronological age in males up to 13-14 years of age, after which the growth rate accelerates; ..."
- "Muscle strength increases steadily between age 11 and 16 years in females and between age 17 and 18 in males."
- "Muscle strength of the lower and upper extremities in males peaks about 1.5 years after maximal growth rate."
- "Powerlifting, bodybuilding, and maximal weight lifting in preadolescents and adolescents should be avoided until they have reached skeletal maturity;"
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
One sport that has had a great deal of success, at least in the United States, in forestalling medical problems caused by too many repitions is Little League baseball. It is well established (but not without dissenting opinions) that children should not be training curve balls until age 12-14. Evidently applying torque to the ball while throwing ut hard as possible causes, amping other things, "Tommy John Elbow" (UCL injury -- also common in other throwing sports such as javelin).
I don't know who enforces this injunction, but I think that all regular leagues and coaches of organized teams seem to honor it. I am sure that there are legions of young boys (and girls) who sneek off and work on their curve ball anyway, plus children playing sandlot rather than in an organized league, but at least coaches are not encouraging it or allowing the pitch in competition. In addition there are rules -- mostly voluntarily followed by coaches -- that govern how many total pitches (of any kind) are permotted in a week of practice, how many pitches per game are allowed, how many consecutive innings and games a pitcher can partipate in, etc.
Maybe it is on the parents to put their foot down when signing their kids up for skating lessons. The ISU could possibly help by drawaing up some guidelines and publishing them aggressively throughout the skating community. (?)
I believe ultra-c should simply banned from junior and senior women's competitions. There is no way for the ISU to monitor a ban on jumping quads until age 17 for example, so it is necessary to simply ban them from competition so there is no motivation to learn them. One of the most vocal feds in lifting the senior age limit on health grounds is now petitioning to have it lowered again despite knowing the physical and psychological trauma it will cause to the children, so you cannot trust any federation to do the right thing. There will be feds having children learn quads in secret if you don't ban them totally from both senior and junior competition. You need the ISU to set the moral compass. Only one or two senior women at the world championships could land ultra-c (very rarely rotated), so it will make little difference to senior skating but save all those children from unnecessary injury learning dangerous content they won't be able to retain past age 17.
ICE DANCE LIFTS: part 4
8) ONE HAND / ARM ROTATIONAL LIFT IN JUNIOR CATHEGORY
In this type of lift demand on the strength of men's upper limb is very high as it carries much more than just weight of lady.
This science article was already mentioned in previous note:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...dolescents_Training_and_physical_conditioning
MUSCLE STRENGTH DEVELOPMENT IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS: TRAINING AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONING
- from 2008
- "Muscle strength of the lower and upper extremities in males peaks about 1.5 years after maximal growth rate."
If men doesn't have enough strength in upper limb and core, they try to substitute this using wrong movement stereotypes and overactivating wrong muscles. It leads to injuries.
I found few examples of this lift in Junior cathegory (I remembered few couples doing that, then I picked 2012-13, 2014-15 and 2022-23 season rewatching 2-3 JGP events):
https://youtu.be/w1zoxs6Hxjw?t=186 - Virtue & Moir 2005-06 season - Scot was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/Xttvm-QSlN4?t=103 - Pushkash & Kiselev 2008-09 season - Dmitri was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/_lrfUMT_KMM?t=130 - Yanovskaya & Mozgov 2010-11 season - Sergei was 16 years old
https://youtu.be/F8rw6MyqOu8?t=224 - Prochazkova & Ceska 2010-11 season - Michal was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/YMAI5oE2580?t=211 - Morozova & Zhirnov 2010-11 season - Mikhail was 16 years old
https://youtu.be/BAMGCynRaA4?t=126 - Yermak & Liubchenko 2011-12 season - Alexander was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/QcmwwmB9JSk?t=100 - Zenkova & Sinitsin season 2011-12 season - Valerie was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/CDuRTbP8yUo?t=194 - Yermak & Khimich 2012-13 season - Alexei was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/MJXdYX7ntMs?t=32 - Heritage & Fast 2012-13 season - Nathaniel was 20 years old
https://youtu.be/_U3KfSbMa6k?t=97 - Bent & Mackeen 2014-15 season - Garrett was 20 years old
https://youtu.be/H1iubGBi2fY?t=40 - Gorbachova & Bogomol 2014-15 season - Ilia was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/PkvjYiM7bqg?t=197 - Konickova & Lang 2014-15 season - Matej was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/sxFKCTlI1ic?t=65 - Kaunatskaya & Lukouski 2014-15 season - Yan was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/zVhngm_sgB8?t=111 - Schwendinger & Wunderlich season 2014-15 - Valentin was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/sgdRwsWFH6o?t=60 - Mrazkova & Mrazek 2022-23 season - Daniel was 19 years old
LADY'S CHEST HOLD:
https://files.fm/u/2j57be3n5z
(Scott Moir, Sergei Morozov, Mikhail Zhirnov, Michal Ceska, Alexei Khimich)
In Scott and Mikhail's case you can clearly see that they tilt their chest to the side from their lady. Sergei is creating lordosis in lumbar part. Michal tilts his chest to the side and overactivate his right trapezius muscle (=wrong shoulder joint centration). Alexei is making much smaller mistakes.
Things mentioned above mean that in first 4 cases deep muscle activation is none. Which means no protection and maximal possibility of damage for body.
I am not sure if you can see it, but the moment of lifting lady from the ice - the way how men move - Scott, Mikhail and Michal are using superficial back muscles only. That is terribly wrong and prone to injury herniation of discs including. Sergei uses superficial back's muscles and slightly upper limb's muscles. Alexei is quite well strengthened, upper limb is not strong enough, but he tries. All of this is example of situation when men doesn't have strongh enough upper limb's muscles, so they replace this overloading superficial back's muscles.
HAND IN HAND HOLD:
https://files.fm/u/2fm83us3bb
(Madeline Heritage & Nathaniel Fast, Valeria Zenkova & Valerie Sinitsin)
Nathaniel tilts his chest to the side and rotates in spine.
Valerie creates small thoracal kyphosis lifting lady, also his shoulder goes up and forward (=wrong shoulder joint centration). There is rotation in spine as well.
Moment of take off - Nathaniel goes down and up in knees in Entry which helps him to lift lady, that is good idea, but then he puts all the work on superficial back's muscles. Valerie tries to use upper limb's muscles - unsuccesfully as he doesn't have enough strength, so he overloads superficial back's muscles.
Holding lady's hand creates enormous load on lady's upper limb. I already mentioned this in previous note. I think that overall junior ladies have smaller upper arm's strength in comparison with senior ladies (which is also caused by not mature body).
In case of Madeline - their hands in hold are placed in her right armpit area, so they are pressuring from down to up her right arm. Thanks to her costume her back is more visible - her shoulder blade is not in good centration, which means that her shoulder is not in good centration as well.
Valeria starts her lift with cervical lordosis and thoracal kyphosis.
In all cases above such technique executed by junior teams leads to injuries - no matter if during the first season of execution this lift or following seasons. Based on overloading, problems will come sooner or later.
Not straight spine = no deep muscle system activation.
Not right shoulder's centration = overload of spin and whole upper limb (joint, muscles...) Btw even tennis elbow is connected with wrong shoulder and spine position...
All these mistakes are multiplied by the weight skaters carries at the moment.
Spine CANNOT be in rotation during the lift, ESPECIALLY in rotational lift - it creates enormous overload with discs damage and herniations and many other troubles.
Let's try to count the real lady's weight during rotations. (I am once again rather undervalueing numbers.)
- an average time in one rotation was 1.2 seconds
- the distance between partner's centre of gravity - chest hold - 65 centimetres, hand in hand hold - 85 centimetres
(It is approximate. In reality the distance between partner's centre of gravity will be bigger.)
- lady's weight from 45 to 55 kilograms
- conversion from Newtons to kilograms is approximate (1 Newton = 102 grams)
Chest hold:
- 45 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 81 Newton = over 8 kilograms
- 55 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 99 Newton = over 10 kilograms
Hands hold:
- 45 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 106 Newton = over 10 kilograms
- 55 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 129 Newton = over 13 kilograms
So if ISU suggests One Hand / Arm Rotational Lift...
...in case of holding around chest it is the same like putting into junior men's ONE upper limb: from 53 kilograms to 65 kilograms
...in case of holding hands it is the same like putting into junior men's ONE upper limb and junior lady ONE upper limb: from 55 kilograms to 68 kilograms
- comming to another numbers - training this lift for 5 times per say, 6 days per week, for 10 months = 1200 repetitions with body overloading
Recommendations for teenager's weight lifting is as follows:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...ealth/in-depth/strength-training/art-20047758
STRENGTH TRAINING: OK FOR KIDS?
- recommendations from famous Mayo clinic
- "Keep it light. Kids can safely lift light adult-size weights. Children can try to do one or two sets of 8 to 12 repetitions with good form. If they can't do 10 repetitions, the weight might be too heavy.
- Focus on good form. Form and technique are more important than the amount of weight your child lifts. Children can increase the resistance or number of repetitions little by little as they build strength."
As we can see from the videos above - junior men are not able to execute even 1 repetition of One Hand / Arm Rotational Lift with good technique. And if I imagine they should repeat the same lift 10 times in a row...in my opinion more of them wouldn't be able to do so many repetitions. Maybe two to three men of those above could be able to repeat this lift 10 times but with worsening technique which is wrong of course.
All science articles are pointing to need for adolescence to lift weight with right technique.
Once again an excerpt from the article above:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...dolescents_Training_and_physical_conditioning
MUSCLE STRENGTH DEVELOPMENT IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS: TRAINING AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONING
- from 2008
- "1. technical execution should be correct and all safety precautions should be taken to ensure that strength training in preadolescents and adolescents is safe and effective;"
As a doctor I would like to suggest to EXCLUDE ONE HAND / ARM ROTATIONAL LIFT IN JUNIOR CATHEGORY. Men are still developing, their muscle mass is below maximum. At the moment they are not strong enough to execute this type of lift. Even one junior man above was not able to execute this lift with right technique despite the fact that it was the first attempt (first attempt = upper arm had the biggest strength at the moment). In case of hand in hand hold ladies are overloading their upper arm as well. Executing this type of lift leads to overloading skaters bodies with various injuries at the moment and in future.
As to Senior cathegory I would recommend to allow this type of lift since men is 21 years old and are capable to execute the lift with right technique.
8) ONE HAND / ARM ROTATIONAL LIFT IN JUNIOR CATHEGORY
In this type of lift demand on the strength of men's upper limb is very high as it carries much more than just weight of lady.
This science article was already mentioned in previous note:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...dolescents_Training_and_physical_conditioning
MUSCLE STRENGTH DEVELOPMENT IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS: TRAINING AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONING
- from 2008
- "Muscle strength of the lower and upper extremities in males peaks about 1.5 years after maximal growth rate."
If men doesn't have enough strength in upper limb and core, they try to substitute this using wrong movement stereotypes and overactivating wrong muscles. It leads to injuries.
I found few examples of this lift in Junior cathegory (I remembered few couples doing that, then I picked 2012-13, 2014-15 and 2022-23 season rewatching 2-3 JGP events):
https://youtu.be/w1zoxs6Hxjw?t=186 - Virtue & Moir 2005-06 season - Scot was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/Xttvm-QSlN4?t=103 - Pushkash & Kiselev 2008-09 season - Dmitri was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/_lrfUMT_KMM?t=130 - Yanovskaya & Mozgov 2010-11 season - Sergei was 16 years old
https://youtu.be/F8rw6MyqOu8?t=224 - Prochazkova & Ceska 2010-11 season - Michal was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/YMAI5oE2580?t=211 - Morozova & Zhirnov 2010-11 season - Mikhail was 16 years old
https://youtu.be/BAMGCynRaA4?t=126 - Yermak & Liubchenko 2011-12 season - Alexander was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/QcmwwmB9JSk?t=100 - Zenkova & Sinitsin season 2011-12 season - Valerie was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/CDuRTbP8yUo?t=194 - Yermak & Khimich 2012-13 season - Alexei was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/MJXdYX7ntMs?t=32 - Heritage & Fast 2012-13 season - Nathaniel was 20 years old
https://youtu.be/_U3KfSbMa6k?t=97 - Bent & Mackeen 2014-15 season - Garrett was 20 years old
https://youtu.be/H1iubGBi2fY?t=40 - Gorbachova & Bogomol 2014-15 season - Ilia was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/PkvjYiM7bqg?t=197 - Konickova & Lang 2014-15 season - Matej was 19 years old
https://youtu.be/sxFKCTlI1ic?t=65 - Kaunatskaya & Lukouski 2014-15 season - Yan was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/zVhngm_sgB8?t=111 - Schwendinger & Wunderlich season 2014-15 - Valentin was 18 years old
https://youtu.be/sgdRwsWFH6o?t=60 - Mrazkova & Mrazek 2022-23 season - Daniel was 19 years old
LADY'S CHEST HOLD:
https://files.fm/u/2j57be3n5z
(Scott Moir, Sergei Morozov, Mikhail Zhirnov, Michal Ceska, Alexei Khimich)
In Scott and Mikhail's case you can clearly see that they tilt their chest to the side from their lady. Sergei is creating lordosis in lumbar part. Michal tilts his chest to the side and overactivate his right trapezius muscle (=wrong shoulder joint centration). Alexei is making much smaller mistakes.
Things mentioned above mean that in first 4 cases deep muscle activation is none. Which means no protection and maximal possibility of damage for body.
I am not sure if you can see it, but the moment of lifting lady from the ice - the way how men move - Scott, Mikhail and Michal are using superficial back muscles only. That is terribly wrong and prone to injury herniation of discs including. Sergei uses superficial back's muscles and slightly upper limb's muscles. Alexei is quite well strengthened, upper limb is not strong enough, but he tries. All of this is example of situation when men doesn't have strongh enough upper limb's muscles, so they replace this overloading superficial back's muscles.
HAND IN HAND HOLD:
https://files.fm/u/2fm83us3bb
(Madeline Heritage & Nathaniel Fast, Valeria Zenkova & Valerie Sinitsin)
Nathaniel tilts his chest to the side and rotates in spine.
Valerie creates small thoracal kyphosis lifting lady, also his shoulder goes up and forward (=wrong shoulder joint centration). There is rotation in spine as well.
Moment of take off - Nathaniel goes down and up in knees in Entry which helps him to lift lady, that is good idea, but then he puts all the work on superficial back's muscles. Valerie tries to use upper limb's muscles - unsuccesfully as he doesn't have enough strength, so he overloads superficial back's muscles.
Holding lady's hand creates enormous load on lady's upper limb. I already mentioned this in previous note. I think that overall junior ladies have smaller upper arm's strength in comparison with senior ladies (which is also caused by not mature body).
In case of Madeline - their hands in hold are placed in her right armpit area, so they are pressuring from down to up her right arm. Thanks to her costume her back is more visible - her shoulder blade is not in good centration, which means that her shoulder is not in good centration as well.
Valeria starts her lift with cervical lordosis and thoracal kyphosis.
In all cases above such technique executed by junior teams leads to injuries - no matter if during the first season of execution this lift or following seasons. Based on overloading, problems will come sooner or later.
Not straight spine = no deep muscle system activation.
Not right shoulder's centration = overload of spin and whole upper limb (joint, muscles...) Btw even tennis elbow is connected with wrong shoulder and spine position...
All these mistakes are multiplied by the weight skaters carries at the moment.
Spine CANNOT be in rotation during the lift, ESPECIALLY in rotational lift - it creates enormous overload with discs damage and herniations and many other troubles.
Let's try to count the real lady's weight during rotations. (I am once again rather undervalueing numbers.)
- an average time in one rotation was 1.2 seconds
- the distance between partner's centre of gravity - chest hold - 65 centimetres, hand in hand hold - 85 centimetres
(It is approximate. In reality the distance between partner's centre of gravity will be bigger.)
- lady's weight from 45 to 55 kilograms
- conversion from Newtons to kilograms is approximate (1 Newton = 102 grams)
Chest hold:
- 45 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 81 Newton = over 8 kilograms
- 55 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 99 Newton = over 10 kilograms
Hands hold:
- 45 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 106 Newton = over 10 kilograms
- 55 kilograms in rotation = centrifugal force is over 129 Newton = over 13 kilograms
So if ISU suggests One Hand / Arm Rotational Lift...
...in case of holding around chest it is the same like putting into junior men's ONE upper limb: from 53 kilograms to 65 kilograms
...in case of holding hands it is the same like putting into junior men's ONE upper limb and junior lady ONE upper limb: from 55 kilograms to 68 kilograms
- comming to another numbers - training this lift for 5 times per say, 6 days per week, for 10 months = 1200 repetitions with body overloading
Recommendations for teenager's weight lifting is as follows:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...ealth/in-depth/strength-training/art-20047758
STRENGTH TRAINING: OK FOR KIDS?
- recommendations from famous Mayo clinic
- "Keep it light. Kids can safely lift light adult-size weights. Children can try to do one or two sets of 8 to 12 repetitions with good form. If they can't do 10 repetitions, the weight might be too heavy.
- Focus on good form. Form and technique are more important than the amount of weight your child lifts. Children can increase the resistance or number of repetitions little by little as they build strength."
As we can see from the videos above - junior men are not able to execute even 1 repetition of One Hand / Arm Rotational Lift with good technique. And if I imagine they should repeat the same lift 10 times in a row...in my opinion more of them wouldn't be able to do so many repetitions. Maybe two to three men of those above could be able to repeat this lift 10 times but with worsening technique which is wrong of course.
All science articles are pointing to need for adolescence to lift weight with right technique.
Once again an excerpt from the article above:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...dolescents_Training_and_physical_conditioning
MUSCLE STRENGTH DEVELOPMENT IN CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS: TRAINING AND PHYSICAL CONDITIONING
- from 2008
- "1. technical execution should be correct and all safety precautions should be taken to ensure that strength training in preadolescents and adolescents is safe and effective;"
As a doctor I would like to suggest to EXCLUDE ONE HAND / ARM ROTATIONAL LIFT IN JUNIOR CATHEGORY. Men are still developing, their muscle mass is below maximum. At the moment they are not strong enough to execute this type of lift. Even one junior man above was not able to execute this lift with right technique despite the fact that it was the first attempt (first attempt = upper arm had the biggest strength at the moment). In case of hand in hand hold ladies are overloading their upper arm as well. Executing this type of lift leads to overloading skaters bodies with various injuries at the moment and in future.
As to Senior cathegory I would recommend to allow this type of lift since men is 21 years old and are capable to execute the lift with right technique.
You need to take into account the cumulative effect on muscles, bones, joints, of years of strength training which is not possible to achieve for a 20 year old. When determining peak strength for men it will be close to 30 not 20. For jumping the calculation is likely different Ilia won't jump better at 30 than 20 even though he will be overall stronger if he has engaged in strength training. Height is a definite impediment. He will be the greatest of all time long before this anyway.
Very true.
You are right, it is different in jumping.
From Czech medicine book - Basics of kinesiology by Ivan Dylevsky
- "According to some data, the proportion of "slow" type I endurance fibers appears to increase in muscle after the age of twenty-five. Perhaps up to 5% for every five years of age."
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._the_effect_of_aging_on_type_II_muscle_fibers
What is the effect of aging on type II muscle fibers?
- science article from 1992
- "...increasing age is accompanied by a greater loss of contractile material of fast twitch type than of slow twitch type. This loss is mediated through a reduction in number and~or size of type 2 fibres."
It means that the dynamics of the take off is slowering a little bit after 25 year of age. Most probably enough to land all triple jumps in men cathegory. Valter Virtanen is 36 years old and lands triple jumps. More retired skaters are landing triple jumps at shows.
Talking about men's cathegory only... and thinking about quad jumps in higher age...
If we look at "QUAD SKATERS" - men landing quad jump / jumps (toeloop or salchow, not more then three quad jumps in FP) being close to 30 years of age...there are not many. From those I do remember:
Alexei Bychenko - born in February 1988 - landed quad toeloop in SP at Golden Spin of Zagreb 2021 (33 years old)
Sergei Voronov - born in October 1987 - landed quad toeloop in both SP and FP at NHK Trophy 2019 and the same at Grand Prix in France (32 years old)
Konstantin Menshov - born in February 1983 - landed two quad toeloops in FP at European Championships 2014, landed quad salchow in SP and quad toeloop in FP at NHK Trophy 2015, landed quad toeloop and salchow in SP and quad toeloop in FP at Skate America 2015 (in 2015 he was 32 years old)
Evgeni Plushenko - born in November 1982 - landed quad toeloop at the Olympics 2014 in both SP and FP (31 years old)
Michal Brezina - born in March 1990 - in September 2021 he landed quad salchow in both SP and FP at U.S. Classic International Figure Skating Classic (31 years old)
Keegan Messing - born in January 1992 - landed quad toeloop in SP and two quad toeloops in FP at World Championships 2023 (31 years old)
Elvis Stojko - born in March 1972 - at the Olympics 2002 he landed quad toeloop in SP (mistake in landing), two quad toeloops in FP (29 years old)
Brian Joubert - born in September 1984 - landed quad toeloop in SP and two quad toeloops in FP at the Olympics 2014 (29 years old)
Jeremy Abbott - born in June 1985 - landed clean quad toeloop in FP at World Championships 2014, he was competing next season as well, but didn't land clean quad jump (at World Championships 2014 he was 28 years old)
Frederic Dambier - born in December 1977 - landed quad salchow in FP at European Championships 2006 (28 years old)
Patrick Chan - born in December 1990 - landed quad toeloop in both SP and FP at Olympics 2018 (27 years old)
Javier Fernandez - born in April 1991 - landed quad salchow at toeloop in both SP and FP at European Championships 2019 (27 years old)
Kevin Reynolds - born in July 1990 - landed two clean quad toeloops in FP at 4 Continents Championships 2018 (27 years old)
Tomas Verner - born in June 1986 - landed clean quad toeloop in SP at World Championships 2014 and clean quad toeloop in FP at European Championships 2014 (27 years old)
Ivan Dinev - born in November 1978 - landed quad toeloop in FP at World Championships 2006 (27 years old)
Another "age" question is about "MULTIPLE QUAD SKATERS" (three and more quad jumps, one of them being loop / flip / lutz / axel):
Yuzuru Hanyu - born in December 1994 - landed one quad toeloop in SP and two clean quad toeloops and another two falls in quad salchow and axel in FP at the Olympics 2022, but landed quad loop in SP and four quad jumps in FP at World Championships 2017 (in 2022 he was 27 years old)
Nathan Chan - born in May 1999 - landed two quad jumps in SP and five quad jumps in FP at the Olympics 2022 (he was 22 years old)
Vincent Zhou - born in October 2000 - four different quad jumps (two of them with negative GOE) at World Championships 2022 (he was 21 years old)
still skating:
Shoma Uno - born in December 1997 - he executed three different quad jumps (flip, loop, toeloop) at World Championships 2024 (26 years old)
Boyang Jin - born in October 1997 - quad lutz, salchow, toeloop in FP at Olympics in 2018, last 4 Continents Championships 2024 with quad lutz and two quad toeloops (26 years old)
The rest is too young yet:
Ilia Malinin is 19 years old.
Yuma Kagiyama is 20 years old.
Adam Siao Him Fa is 23 years old.
Kao Miura attempted quad salchow / loop / toeloop at World Championships 2024, he is 18 years old.
I have no clue as to Russian skaters - their age and number of quad jumps (three and more quad jumps, one of them being loop / flip / lutz). If anyone knows...
"Multiple quad skaters" are still too young. At the moment we don't know if it is possible to keep multiple quad content at the age of 30. Logically more quad jumps = bigger load on body = more injuries = shorter active career...those things may lead to situation that multiple quad skaters will not be skating competively at the age of 30 and more. But we will have to wait and see...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2022
Well, you can leave out this specific lift, but in general I would like to throw in one comment. Just because some skaters are not able to do something properly it does not mean it cannot be done. Look at the skaters... and then look at some 18 year olds who have focused more on building strength than on being light.
I mean these are gymnasts not weight lifters. I agree that lifting skaters should be careful in not overdoing it and that they should leave out certain elements, but I also think that the training/body image/body type of lifting skaters may sometimes be not so well-suited for what they do.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
Just a note, although it's a little sideways from competition, where it is true that the obsession with quadding (like as many as possible in 4 minutes) is looking to shorten the careers and drive down the age of the men at the very top as it has women. But let's note that Yuzuru is still doing multiple quads and other jumps, just spacing them out a bit more given he's doing a one-and-a-half to two hour solo show... in his recent RE_PRAY it's been noted he did six quads, five triple Axels, and 28 jumps in total, of top quality. He's eased off on the ones hardest on the problem ankle, but still can do them beautifully, we've seen the practice; but being as he is now 29, it's a testament to how pristine technique can bring longevity even in quads.
Ironically though (pristine technique being, let's be honest, rare) it will be the biggest scorers who probably end up disappearing early with permanent damage (look at Tutberidze's girls) and the mid-tier skaters who can keep going and leave in good nick.
Last edited:
I forgot Morisi Kvitelashvili - born in March 1995 - he landed clean quad salchow and toeloop in FP at World Championships 2023 (28 years old)
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2023
morissey never jumped a clean quad toe loop in his career
