Nikolaj Sorensen banned for six years for "sexual maltreatment" | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Nikolaj Sorensen banned for six years for "sexual maltreatment"

If you read the posts you're replying to, you'd know that's not exactly what this is about... Sorry, but that doesn't lead to anything.
So if the discussion is to try to influence the way I AM functions - it won't work. Top management doesn't have any legal problems. How fans think their skaters should be treated is not what they think.

And skaters will continue to come to I AM for the results.
 
So if the discussion is to try to influence the way I AM functions - it won't work. Top management doesn't have any legal problems. How fans think their skaters should be treated is not what they think.

And skaters will continue to come to I AM for the results.
Sorry you're not triggering me with that.
 
Are the I AM coaches doing anything legally wrong? Telling the students to deal with it by themselves doesn't break any laws
Legal =/= Morally right, and you know that very well.
In some countries, rape is legal as long as the rapist offers to marry the victim, but does that mean it's now morally acceptable to you?
If they did they would be in the courts already.
... Do I even have to answer with any examples of people/organisations blatantly breaking laws and getting away with it for decades, sometimes even lifetimes?
 
Legal =/= Morally right, and you know that very well.
In some countries, rape is legal as long as the rapist offers to marry the victim, but does that mean it's now morally acceptable to you?

... Do I even have to answer with any examples of people/organisations blatantly breaking laws and getting away with it for decades, sometimes even lifetimes?
No thank you.

I won't spend any more time reading your useless messages.

I told you just accept the fact that we have different opinions.

And we both expressed our opinions.

I am not trying to convince you. And you won't succeed in convincing me

That's all.

It's just a chat. Why should you get emotional and upset about it?
 
Let's take a different example, to maybe help with approaching the questions around roles, responsibilities and boundaries in a less heated way...

I work in the Higher Education sector. I teach upwards of 1000 students across various degree programmes and am an allocated academic tutor for around 150 of them. As an academic tutor, I am responsible for monitoring and supporting the academic development and progress of those students. The majority of students now have mental health problems. All our students have access to online and telephone/text message mental health support 24 hours per day, every day of the year. The university also has mental health caseworkers and counsellors to work with students on a referral basis (with referrals needing to be approved by Student Support). All of these are free of charge for the students. Whilst I care about my students and their wellbeing, I am not a trained counsellor or psychotherapist and cannot provide the sort of support needed if there are issues such as unwanted pregnancies, sexual misconduct allegations, trauma, or even normal mental health conditions beyond mild depression and anxiety. It is not unusual for students to want me to solve all the issues in their lives for them, but I have responsibilities for maintaining appropriate professional boundaries and am aware that not doing so could be very damaging for both students and myself. I can sympathise and signpost students towards appropriate support (both within the university and through organisations such as Cruse, Crisis, Refuge, Women's Aid, Victim Support), and will do Student Support and/or safeguarding referrals when appropriate, but that is the limit of what I can realistically do. Every year, I get students who are not happy with this and who want me to provide whatever they think would help them, rather than their being willing to engage with Student Support or the mental health support which is available to students and provided by people with the specialist training and skills needed to support them effectively.

Students with declared mental health problems are entitled to apply for a Disabled Students Allowance (DSA) which, depending on their needs assessment, typically provides between 1-3 hours of specialist study skills and mental health support per week from a trained mental health coach. Once this is approved, students need to contact the relevant department to set this up. They are all over 18 and things need to be set up by them, or by their named advocate if they are unable to do it themselves. I cannot set it up for them and, due to confidentiality and GDPR rules, that department is not allowed to speak to me about students (they can only speak to the student, their advocate or to student support). I am increasingly getting students who do not set up their DSA support, and who expect that I will provide the support for them on demand instead, because they feel that they should have the right to choose exactly what support they receive and from whom. My taking on this specialist mental health work would be unfair on the students needing the support, unfair on other students who I have responsibilities for, and unfair on myself. I do not have the specialist skills and training needed and, however well-intentioned, I could actually do a lot of damage to them by attempting something which I know I am not equipped for. Moreover, if I agree to provide that sort of individual mental health support to one tutee for e.g. 2 hours per week (something which would be done in my own time and not as part of my job), I would need to be prepared to do the same for the other 80 or so with declared mental health problems. I would be completely burnt out within a couple of weeks, and then would be of absolutely no use to any of them. There are times when recognising that you are not the right person for something, or that you are out of your depth with the support needed, is actually the most caring and responsible approach to take.

I try to set clear boundaries and expectations, and provide information to all my students about how they can access mental health support. However, it is not uncommon for students to still have very unrealistic expectations of the support I 'should' be providing for them. I get students who make complaints to the university for things like my not telephoning them immediately when they emailed me at 3am wanting help with an assignment and that causing them mental distress (they will literally email at 3am and then be on the phone to student support at 8am complaining that I haven't answered their email or phoned them). I had one last year who made a formal complaint because I had "made her suicidal" by not answering emails on Christmas day. All students had been informed in advance when the Christmas closure period was and that I would not be working or checking emails during that period. My email had an out of office reply on it which reminded students that the university was closed between 4pm on 24th December and 9am on 2nd January, stated that I would not be checking emails during this period, and outlined how to access mental health support whilst the university was closed. This should have been reasonable, but in the student's eyes I was being completely unsupportive by not being available on demand on Christmas Day. There are, unfortunately, situations where nothing we do will ever be good enough.
 
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Let's take a different example, to maybe help with approaching the questions around roles, responsibilities and boundaries in a less heated way...

I work in the Higher Education sector. I teach upwards of 1000 students across various degree programmes and am an allocated academic tutor for around 150 of them. As an academic tutor, I am responsible for monitoring and supporting the academic development and progress of those students. The majority of students now have mental health problems. All our students have access to online and telephone/text message mental health support 24 hours per day, every day of the year. The university also has mental health caseworkers and counsellors to work with students on a referral basis (with referrals needing to be approved by Student Support). All of these are free of charge for the students. Whilst I care about my students and their wellbeing, I am not a trained counsellor or psychotherapist and cannot provide the sort of support needed if there are issues such as unwanted pregnancies, sexual misconduct allegations, trauma, or even normal mental health conditions beyond mild depression and anxiety. It is not unusual for students to want me to solve all the issues in their lives for them, but I have responsibilities for maintaining appropriate professional boundaries and am aware that not doing so could be very damaging for both students and myself. I can sympathise and signpost students towards appropriate support (both within the university and through organisations such as Cruse, Crisis, Refuge, Women's Aid, Victim Support), and will do Student Support and/or safeguarding referrals when appropriate, but that is the limit of what I can realistically do. Every year, I get students who are not happy with this and who want me to provide whatever they think would help them, rather than their being willing to engage with Student Support or the mental health support which is available to students and provided by people with the specialist training and skills needed to support them effectively.

Students with declared mental health problems are entitled to apply for a Disabled Students Allowance (DSA) which, depending on their needs assessment, typically provides between 1-3 hours of specialist study skills and mental health support per week from a trained mental health coach. Once this is approved, students need to contact the relevant department to set this up. They are all over 18 and things need to be set up by them, or by their named advocate if they are unable to do it themselves. I cannot set it up for them and, due to confidentiality and GDPR rules, that department is not allowed to speak to me about students (they can only speak to the student, their advocate or to student support). I am increasingly getting students who do not set up their DSA support, and who expect that I will provide the support for them on demand instead, because they feel that they should have the right to choose exactly what support they receive and from whom. My taking on this specialist mental health work would be unfair on the students needing the support, unfair on other students who I have responsibilities for, and unfair on myself. I do not have the specialist skills and training needed and, however well-intentioned, I could actually do a lot of damage to them by attempting something which I know I am not equipped for. Moreover, if I agree to provide that sort of individual mental health support to one tutee for e.g. 2 hours per week (something which would be done in my own time and not as part of my job), I would need to be prepared to do the same for the other 80 or so with declared mental health problems. I would be completely burnt out within a couple of weeks, and then would be of absolutely no use to any of them. There are times when recognising that you are not the right person for something, or that you are out of your depth with the support needed, is actually the most caring and responsible approach to take.

I try to set clear boundaries and expectations, and provide information to all my students about how they can access mental health support. However, it is not uncommon for students to still have very unrealistic expectations of the support I 'should' be providing for them. I get students who make complaints to the university for things like my not telephoning them immediately when they emailed me at 3am wanting help with an assignment and that causing them mental distress (they will literally email at 3am and then be on the phone to student support at 8am complaining that I haven't answered their email or phoned them). I had one last year who made a formal complaint because I had "made her suicidal" by not answering emails on Christmas day. All students had been informed in advance when the Christmas closure period was and that I would not be working or checking emails during that period. My email had an out of office reply on it which reminded students that the university was closed between 4pm on 24th December and 9am on 2nd January, stated that I would not be checking emails during this period, and outlined how to access mental health support whilst the university was closed. This should have been reasonable, but in the student's eyes I was being completely unsupportive by not being available on demand on Christmas Day. There are, unfortunately, situations where nothing we do will ever be good enough.
I am not sure comparing two very different roles with very different scopes is particularly conductive.

In contrast to you, the vast majority of coaches (at the elite level at least) do not have anywhere close to one hundred athletes they train. Even now, with how big IAM is, none of the coaches are responsible for more than 20, maybe 30 athletes, and none of them are coaching any of these teams alone (and they certainly have sports psychologists on staff). They also spend hours each day working with these skaters face to face, for many years - Something I suspect your job does not involve.

We can also turn to the official codes of ethics of Skate Canada and the NCCP. Taken directly from the Skate Canada guide for coaches "Always maintain the best interests of the skater/team. Place the emotional and physical wellbeing of the skater/team ahead of a personal desire to win."
And when we're at it, out of the mouth of Patrice Lauzon himself "We take care of the human being more than anything else. I think that's what draws people in."
 
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I am not sure comparing two very different roles with very different scopes is particularly conductive.

In contrast to you, the vast majority of coaches (at the elite level at least) do not have anywhere close to one hundred athletes they train. Even now, with how big IAM is, none of the coaches are responsible for more than 20, maybe 30 athletes, and none of them are coaching any of these teams alone. They also spend hours each day working with these skaters face to face, for many years - Something I suspect your job does not involve.

We can also turn to the official codes of ethics of Skate Canada and the NCCP. Taken directly from the Skate Canada guide for coaches "Always maintain the best interests of the skater/team. Place the emotional and physical wellbeing of the skater/team ahead of a personal desire to win."
And when we're at it, out of the mouth of Patrice Lauzon himself "We take care of the human being more than anything else. I think that's what draws people in."
I think the same principle applies, though, of recognising when something goes beyond the support you can give and signposting the person towards support which you hope will be more appropriate for them. Trying to provide any form of trauma counselling - whether in relation to sexual maltreatment or pregnancy/abortion - when not equipped to do so would not be maintaining the best interests of the skater/team. Suggesting that they might want to talk things through with someone who has more experience of xxx would fit better with the idea of maintaining their best interests - it acknowledges that the person is finding things difficult, but doesn't cross professional boundaries or create a situation where you could cause harm by attempting to provide support to them whilst not having the skills needed to do so effectively.

I think people are seriously underestimating the skill and expertise needed to provide effective support for the sorts of issues which have been discussed here.
 
I think the same principle applies, though, of recognising when something goes beyond the support you can give and signposting the person towards support which you hope will be more appropriate for them. Trying to provide any form of trauma counselling - whether in relation to sexual maltreatment or pregnancy/abortion - when not equipped to do so would not be maintaining the best interests of the skater/team. Suggesting that they might want to talk things through with someone who has more experience of xxx would fit better with the idea of maintaining their best interests - it acknowledges that the person is finding things difficult, but doesn't cross professional boundaries or create a situation where you could cause harm by attempting to provide support to them whilst not having the skills needed to do so effectively.

I think people are seriously underestimating the skill and expertise needed to provide effective support for the sorts of issues which have been discussed here.
That is not however what people have been taking issue with. It's the complete coldness of how they told people to seek help elsewhere and their lack of integrity in their self-proclaimed values.
Getting angry at skaters because they're struggling mentally and just telling them to "take care of [their depression] themselves" is not professional, it's callous.
Publicly proclaiming that you don't tolerate any situations of sexual maltreatment and then continuing to train and very publicly support (with media statements and social media activities) a skater under investigation in a way where skaters have to ask to not have to train with them is also not professional, it's hypocritical.

Support doesn't have to be big or on the level of professional therapy. Checking in on someone a few times a week, or changing their training plan to accommodate their mental status, making sure they don't overtrain in an attempt to "drown out" the trauma - All of this is easily within the abilities of a coach. (And by the way, something like going to the police with a skater in the aftermath of a (suspected) crime is not just within a coach's ability but actually their responsibility based on the code of ethics of NCCP.)
 
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I think the same principle applies, though, of recognising when something goes beyond the support you can give and signposting the person towards support which you hope will be more appropriate for them. Trying to provide any form of trauma counselling - whether in relation to sexual maltreatment or pregnancy/abortion - when not equipped to do so would not be maintaining the best interests of the skater/team. Suggesting that they might want to talk things through with someone who has more experience of xxx would fit better with the idea of maintaining their best interests - it acknowledges that the person is finding things difficult, but doesn't cross professional boundaries or create a situation where you could cause harm by attempting to provide support to them whilst not having the skills needed to do so effectively.

I think people are seriously underestimating the skill and expertise needed to provide effective support for the sorts of issues which have been discussed here.
This comment sums up my thoughts perfectly. I think those who don't understand this viewpoint have never worked in a teaching/ coaching/ managerial role. You are not your students/ subordinates friend or family member who should provide a listening ear and be on their side regardless of the situation. You are not a qualified professional who can provide the tools/ counseling needed so the individual can take appropriate action on their own. You are there to teach a certain subject, skill or provide professional guidance. You can emphasize and point them in the right direction to get help, but going beyond this would not be appropriate or professional. The lack of professional boundaries is what often leads to serious issues in the first place. A coach , teacher, or professional being modest ( by which I mean recognizing the limitations of his/ her role) is frankly good for everyone.

And, yes, a coach could suggest a student take time off or in extreme circumstances refuse to coach a student if the student is in severe physical or mental danger. Yes, a coaching team should/ can provide a comfortable environment where a skater has a safe way to report misconduct, physical , or mental trauma .They should know of professionals who they can refer a skater to. But, going beyond these things is not only unrealistic, it could also easily become inappropriate and unprofessional.
 
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I HAVE woked in a teaching position and am in a managerial role. And while obviosuly I'm not qualified to do the work of a professional consellor, I can at least show a little bit of sympathy if someone tells me they have problems. I don't think it was implied that Gabby was asking for more than that. I also know a lot of people who are still teaching at University and while it depends on the person, the more popular professors are the ones who treat their students as whole human beings and at least aknowledge when their students have issues. Doesn't mean they have to coddle them, but a bit of compassion goes a long way. And I'm saying this as a perpetually grumpy person.
 
Spousal Unit was a professor for 40 years at local large private university. Most of his classes were small and he knew his students.

No way in heck did he deal with students' (serious) personal problems. If a student wanted a shoulder to cry on about personal problems, he directed them to all the appropriate resources on campus. Believe me, on the US campuses that I know, those resources are legion. :)

Of course this does not mean he was stiff, uncaring or not empathetic. It did mean that he knew his PhD in Classics had zippo to do with a student's family, romantic or other issues, and that the student was best served by going elsewhere.

One point which I noticed that I did want to address: I don't care if IAM said "Welcome to the family". In English, or at least in the US, that is understood, welcome to the "work family". It doesn't mean I am acting as your mother, your sister, your brother, or your confessor if you come here to work, (Now as Marie-France and Patrice are Francophones, perhaps it means something different to them, but I am certain their English is more than proficient).
 
I HAVE woked in a teaching position and am in a managerial role. And while obviosuly I'm not qualified to do the work of a professional consellor, I can at least show a little bit of sympathy if someone tells me they have problems. I don't think it was implied that Gabby was asking for more than that. I also know a lot of people who are still teaching at University and while it depends on the person, the more popular professors are the ones who treat their students as whole human beings and at least aknowledge when their students have issues. Doesn't mean they have to coddle them, but a bit of compassion goes a long way. And I'm saying this as a perpetually grumpy person.
I don't think anyone is suggesting sympathy should not be offered or an acknowledgment of the situation. It should. But, a coach should not be your counselor. A coach should not be your friend whose shoulder your cry on. And, I don't think being "popular" should be the goal of any professional or coach. ( Or human being)

But, about Gabby, I don't think we know what she was asking for. If the coaches downplayed the situation or told her to just get over it, that's certainly not a great response. But, if they merely suggested she should talk to someone else about the issue that is IMHO the correct action to take. They aren't the right people to counsel Gabby about what must have been a heart breaking situation and choice. She needs friends for that. She needs a counselor for that.
 
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I wonder if IAM are a victim of their own success to an extent. Their roster of skaters gets bigger and bigger, and perhaps they lose the personal connection.

It does sound as if they may need to reconsider how they handle delicate situations.
 
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