Zhang Hopes to Improve on Grand Prix Success

[oleada]

It's not very practical to expend all that training time and competitive stamina on a second 3-3 which is guaranteed -GOE and at risky for downgrades (did Mao manage to get both 3-3's in her LP ratified last season?).

Yes, she did, at the GPF. The back ends of the 3F+3T was downgraded at 4CC and the 3F+3Lo was downgraded at Worlds.

That's not what I'm saying at all, though. I'm saying that (imo) Caroline should fix her messed up jumping technique as well as her flutz. Mao and Miki have fixed their flutz and lip, respectively, so it can be done. However, improving her core strength and speed across the ice is also an excellent move.

That said, I think she should go for the 3F+3T, like Mao does, as well as a 3F+3Lo. Isn't Caroline's salchow really inconsistent and downgraded at Golden West?

 

[feraina]

I'm saying that (imo) Caroline should fix her messed up jumping technique as well as her flutz. Mao and Miki have fixed their flutz and lip, respectively, so it can be done. However, improving her core strength and speed across the ice is also an excellent move.

I think that improving her core strength and speed and improving her jump techniques go hand in hand. She clearly lacks speed going into her 2A, and if she could jump higher and rotate faster on her 3F and 3Z, she would not need to kick so high or wind around so far.

In the separate Kimmie thread, it's mentioned in an interview that (her coaches are) "getting Meissner to use her legs to get airborne instead of muscling off the ice with her upper body." I think that'd be great advice to Caroline, too.

That said, I think she should go for the 3F+3T, like Mao does, as well as a 3F+3Lo. Isn't Caroline's salchow really inconsistent and downgraded at Golden West?

It was ratified at GW with -1 GOE. I'd also think that she'd be better off with 3F-3R than 3S-3R. But maybe she doesn't get as much flow out of the 3F as she does with 3S, even though the latter is more at risk of downgrade. Flow does not equal full rotation: Caroline has no flow out of the 2A, but always gets full rotation on it, she has a lot of flow out of the 3Z, but that's downgraded sometimes anyway.

Btw, she spent much of last summer working on getting rid of the flutz, with little visible success. Maybe she and her coach decided that it's not something she can fix in the short-term, without gaining more speed/power/strength, and in the meantime they're changing around her jumps to eliminate 2 of her 3 flutzes.

 

[AdamFan]

Most thin skaters flutz. Mao still flutzes-just not quite as badly. Caroline needs to become physically stronger in her core and her legs before she can do a real lutz. I wonder if Li Mingzhu is really the one to work with on fixing a flutz, as Lulu typically flutzed. As Caroline becomes older and stronger, I think reworking her lutz will become a much better possibility. I think she should work with Artunian as a secondary coach to work on her jumps (if she doesn't already). I know Karen Kwan took a group of skaters (including Caroline) to Lake Arrowhead this summer for training. Perhaps they worked with Rafael there.

 

[Sdongxie]

I wonder if Li Mingzhu is really the one to work with on fixing a flutz, as Lulu typically flutzed..

No, Lu Chen never flutzed since she competed internationally.
I think flutzers did not have the right technique when they jump a double, or even a single. And someone who learned the jumps earlier would be harder to fix their flutz.

 

[fiercemao]

Most thin skaters flutz. Mao still flutzes-just not quite as badly. Caroline needs to become physically stronger in her core and her legs before she can do a real lutz. I wonder if Li Mingzhu is really the one to work with on fixing a flutz, as Lulu typically flutzed. .

You must be kidding. I like how us casual fans always try to play 'experts'. Lu Chen had one of the most texbook triple lutz jump, and here we have an 'expert' calling her typically flutzed. LOL.

Coaching is just part of a success of a skater's career. Every skater has his/her strength and weakness. It's not like they can change overnight because of a 'magic' coach. A lot of first rated skaters under the guidance of well respected specialists still are unable to fix their weakness or bad habits. Tara Lipinski was a horrible flutzer, well, her coach was a widely renowned jump specialist, Richard Callaghan. We hear lots of talk lately on how Kimmie Meisner has improved her jumps under Callaghan. I'm kind of sketical not because of Callaghan's expertise but because of the difficulty for a skater to correct some ingrained technique. The jury is still out there.

Did Artunian correct Mao's flutz? He didn't even try. Did he help Buttle succeed with quad and 3A? I don't think so. I'm just amazed why we keep on hearing these random suggestions that skater A should go to coach B to help him/her with blah, blah, blah...

 

[AdamFan]

Artunian helped Kwan get her true Lutz. It may have been Scott Williams. I believe Williams is the coach who made MK skate w/ a parachute on her back to improve her speed.

I apologize for misspeaking about Lulu. I knew she had the entrance where she kinda had a curved entrance into it. I wasn't sure if she changed edges. I should've gone back and watched. My apologies.

 

[antmanb]

Artunian helped Kwan get her true Lutz. It may have been Scott Williams. I believe Williams is the coach who made MK skate w/ a parachute on her back to improve her speed.

I apologize for misspeaking about Lulu. I knew she had the entrance where she kinda had a curved entrance into it. I wasn't sure if she changed edges. I should've gone back and watched. My apologies.

I don't think it was either Arutunian or Williams who fixed Kwan's Lutz since she had flattened it out and mostly came off a true outside by 1998 Olympics - she wouldn't work with Williams until four years later in the off season after SLC.

Ant

 

[kittyjake5]

I believe Williams is the coach who made MK skate w/ a parachute on her back to improve her speed.

Never heard that tidbit about Michelle skating with a parachute on her back to improve her speed. IIIRC there was nothing wrong with her speed in 2003.

 

[AdamFan]

Exactly, she had been working with Scott on her speed after the 2002 COI tour. You can notice a visible difference in her speed between the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons.

Michelle's flutz was pretty noticeable during the fall of 2001 when she was coaching herself. I remember them showing it on the replay at 2001 Skate Canada.

 

[ChrisH]

That article might be a bit outdated, or plain incorrect wrt her jumps layout. She repeated the loop instead of the lutz in her Golden West LP.

Brisingr was apparently released on September 20, 2008, so the interview was given after Golden West. Still, your reading of the article makes more sense. That jump layout is the same one Caroline used at World Juniors in February-March.

She says in her own words that she wants to work with what she has and make each element better. It sounds like mostly what she's doing is improving on her core strength, which is probably even more helpful to her than fixing any one type of jump. More core strength will help her jump higher and rotate faster, it would also allow her to skate with more power and speed and also become more expressive with each move.

ITA agree about the merits of improving her core strength. Caroline was saying everything right about her on and off the ice training until she started talking about the triple lutz-triple loop. I think that what she is saying is that while she is focusing on improving the jumps she has, she hasn't settled for a weaker jump layout than the others and is still pushing to add difficulty to her programs. She hasn't gotten injured, so her desire to add new jumps is a good thing IMO.

Last season, her flutzes and downgrades got a lot of attention, but actually it was the low component scores that hurt her the most (for instance, she had the highest TES in the SP and the 3rd highest TES at GPF last year).

Hopefully she'll have enough rotation on her jumps so that she can focus more on her presentation during her programs.

Also, two skaters from her rink have mentioned that she's been practicing 3S-3R over the summer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMkN-b5zO4I
That makes a lot more sense than 3Z-3R.

To be more specific, she did the 3S-3R in late September?

I'd also think that she'd be better off with 3F-3R than 3S-3R.

I disagree given that Mao and Ashley have so much trouble with downgrades and two-footing the 3F-3R. I think that there are a few theoretical reasons why a 3S-3R and a 2A-3R would be better.

 

[ChrisH]

Splendid article. Thanks Paula and Barry Mittan. :agree: (Plus, great picture! )

The picture has great lighting and color, but I've seen better in-bauer positions from Caroline.

I think Caroline has a serious chance to win Skate Canada. Carolina Kostner and Joannie Rochette will be favored, but anything can happen.

I wonder if Carolina Kostner will be more favored than Caroline. Carolina seemed to be more motivated for the GP series last year and yet Carolina lost to Caroline in their 1st meeting.

She could also make the podium at Eric Bompard (facing Mao Asada and Rochette again).

I think that it's highly likely Caroline will make the podium and perhaps will be more favored than Joannie Rochette for the silver medal.

 

[AdamFan]

For the 2008-09 season, Zhang plans to start out using a triple flip-triple toe loop combination, triple loop and double Axel in her short program. Her long will include two double Axels, a triple flip, a triple Salchow, a triple Lutz, and three combinations: triple flip-triple toe, triple Lutz-double toe, and triple loop-double toe-double loop.

Did we miss the triple salchow before or has the article been updated?

 

[Mathman]

The picture has great lighting and color, but I've seen better in-bauer positions from Caroline.

Well, maybe her pinky on her left hand could have a little more separation from her ring finger....

Edited to add.: Oops, I mean right hand.

 

[museksk8r]

I wonder if Carolina Kostner will be more favored than Caroline.

:chorus: Please tell me you're joking, right? There's no wondering about it . . . Carolina will be highly favored over Caroline.

It is entirely possible though that Kostner can have a meltdown as she historically starts the season out very slow. She normally doesn't reach her stride until December. Even with a meltdown, her PCS scores will be high.

 

[Wrlmy]

:chorus: Please tell me you're joking, right? There's no wondering about it . . . Carolina will be highly favored over Caroline.

What is so funny about ChrisH's statement? Caroline Z beat Carolina K at CoC last year, and Caroline Z's gpf score came close to Carolina's, which was her best performance last year. AND we know how they've performed over the summer.

Because Carolina is much faster is not a reason to favor her. Is there any reason Kostner should be highly favored over Zhang?

 

[museksk8r]

What is so funny about ChrisH's statement? Caroline Z beat Carolina K at CoC last year, and Caroline Z's gpf score came close to Carolina's, which was her best performance last year. AND we know how they've performed over the summer.

Because Carolina is much faster is not a reason to favor her. Is there any reason Kostner should be highly favored over Zhang?

Are people forgetting Worlds last season already? One need only examine Kostner's PCS scores from the judges over her competitions to know what I'm talking about. Even when she had her total meltdown in the Worlds '07 LP, she still managed to tie Yukari Nakano in the overall scores, who was relatively clean. Nakano won the tie break (Nakano 5th/Kostner 6th) because she placed higher in the LP, but still it's a testament to the fact that the judges LOVE Kostner and will give her HIGH PCS scores despite how she skates.

 

[AdamFan]

The judges love that Kostner is ITALIAN. Ottavio has made sure of that.

 

[museksk8r]

I fully believe if you were to present an international ISU judging panel with a clean Carolina Kostner and a clean Caroline Zhang that Kostner would win convincingly. A clean Kostner would likely receive the highest PCS scores ever handed out under the COP system.

 

[Buttercup]

The judges love that Kostner is ITALIAN. Ottavio has made sure of that.

If that's the case, how come Valentina Marchei, Karel Zalenka, Cappellini/Lanotte and the other Italians aren't feeling the love, too? Also, when did Speedy work his magic? It must have been after the 06 season, but then there's no accounting for her 2005 bronze.

I think Kostner will be favored because she's got a track record of success, whereas Zhang has one season of very good Grand Prix results. Being favored does not mean a skater will win; we'll all have a chance to see who skates best, and hopefully this person will be at the top of the podium in Everett.

ETA: museksk8r - a very clean Kostner was third after the 2007 worlds SP. And she was behind Kim, Ando and Asada on PCS.

 

[fiercemao]

I fully believe if you were to present an international ISU judging panel with a clean Carolina Kostner and a clean Caroline Zhang that Kostner would win convincingly. A clean Kostner would likely receive the highest PCS scores ever handed out under the COP system.

If Sasha skated clean, she would have won 2 world championship title, 1 OGM, blah, blah, blah. To believe Kostner can skate 'clean' is to believe the earth is flat.