Is the interaction between competitive skating and show skating still mutually beneficial? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Is the interaction between competitive skating and show skating still mutually beneficial?

Talking about other ticket prices listed in the above post by @Wynter, there is a tendency that story-driven shows (OPOI, Hyoen) have more expensive tickets, quote :

Kassouya: 4,500-15,000 yen (USD 29-97)
One Piece on Ice: 8,000-32,000 yen (USD 51-206)
PIW: 4,500-28,000 yen (USD 29-180)
Stars on Ice: 9,000-30,000 yen (USD 58-193)
BISF25: 1,500-100,000 yen (USD 10-644)
Hyoen: 13,000-39,000 yen (USD 84-251)

It’s not because of story. .

32,000 yen tickets for OPOI IIRC came with some exclusive merchs. It also has projection mapping.
Hyoen (and Yuzu’s Ice Story in general) are noticeably utilizing high technology including projection mapping.

I cannot justify BISF25’s tickets though. Thrice as expensive! It came with some gourmet food dinner prepared on the spot. Very random. 😅
 
I suppose this thread is timely with Loena withdrawing from Europeans. She performed in many shows over the summer it seemed like many more than in previous off seasons, and it seems to have affected her 24/25 season because she came into the season not being in her usual conditioning. When you start preparing for the season late, you rush things, more chance of injury, etc. Luckily for her it is a small federation she will be able to maintain her place at World's but the pressure is on Nina to perform for Belgium.
 
It’s not because of story. .

32,000 yen tickets for OPOI IIRC came with some exclusive merchs. It also has projection mapping.
Hyoen (and Yuzu’s Ice Story in general) are noticeably utilizing high technology including projection mapping.
Not because of story? Well... Story is the cheapest and easiest way how to avoid repetition and offer content that is unique. (This is also the main difference between Cirque du Soleil "modern circus" story-driven shows and variety shows of "traditional circus".) Let's not underestimate the story ;)
In case of Hyoen, there was strong story but also strong multi-genre performance, music, and visuals that helped to tell this story. In case of OPOI, there was much weaker production but the story was still there and I doubt that any merch offer would have worked without it. I can see your point when you imply that story alone can't justify high ticket price; but at the same time, the story can be a good reason that brings all other aspects together.

Like I said in the other post, there is a developing category of (I'll quote):
story-driven shows or shows that are unique and/or offer unique content because of other reason. So, this is logical that the number of shows with unique content is growing and so is the range of said content exceeding the usual demand of figure skating fans and becoming interesting also for fans of other arts and industries
and, although the story is not the only way how to create unique offer (i.e. there can also be themed variety shows or conceptual art projects), showing a story is an old and proven way how to educate and entertain the public. For example, there are people who go to the theater every week and don't quit because "oh, we already saw theater the other week" - they go because every week they can see a different story. Then, why can't it be a story on ice, many stories on ice? 🤔
Also, I am paying extra attention to story-driven shows because these shows demand that skaters play roles/impersonate characters rather than just be themselves and this aspect may affect the program choices of competitive skaters if they aim to take part in such shows and draw the attention of those who scout for casting.

I cannot justify BISF25’s tickets though. Thrice as expensive! It came with some gourmet food dinner prepared on the spot. Very random. 😅

Let's be fair, they offer also five times cheaper tickets, not only thrice as expensive VIP tickets. So, they are trying a different approach with wider range of ticket price. This is supposed to be an interactive show with different levels of interaction. I believe both priciest and cheapest prices are somehow related to that.
I understand that they want to show "Anime World on Ice" with many activities similar to Comic Con that includes i.e. spectators cross-dressing for cosplay. I'm not sure how it will work but I will be waiting for the social media response with interest, I hope it will be discussed on the BIS F25 thread in the respective subforum :)
 
Last edited:
It’s not because of story. .

32,000 yen tickets for OPOI IIRC came with some exclusive merchs. It also has projection mapping.
Hyoen (and Yuzu’s Ice Story in general) are noticeably utilizing high technology including projection mapping.

I cannot justify BISF25’s tickets though. Thrice as expensive! It came with some gourmet food dinner prepared on the spot. Very random. 😅
Not because of story? Well... Story is the cheapest and easiest way how to avoid repetition and offer content that is unique.
I think it was about ticket prices, with tickets being more expensive to all Yuzuru's Ice Stories and to Hyoen, and - partly - to OPOI IIRC, because of the more sophisticated tech and ice projections employed and not because they tell a story - which they do, but that's not the factor which would affect the costs and justify tickets being more expensive to these shows. Which sounds very reasonable to me. At least as much as Yuzu shows are concerned, each of them is really top notch in terms of tech and the quality of production, and you can feel the high budget behind it, and that it just has to be expensive. So whatever the price is, it feels justified.
As for storytelling, it also depends on the story being told and the way it is narrated. After all, any movie is trying to tell a story and not all of them are a huge success. But in general, I agree, some great story telling is a great way to win the audience's hearts. Although in an ice show, some great skating to go along with it is probably also quite helpful ;)
 
I think production values - and costs - are a real factor in current shows and when we talk of gross receipts the different shows make we also have to consider the costs (cast/crew is also a big expense), and expectations in Japan at least are getting higher and higher. Maybe in Russia too, the bits I have seen of their shows look like money has been spent even if I personally find them rather tacky.

I know I have been guilty of saying Yuzu could attract an audience of thousands by stroking and spinning round the rink in black UAs :laugh: but he, Mikiko and is sponsors really put a hell of a lot of money and care into the production as a whole (except for the charity show, a special case). Takahashi may not have the same amount investable (and his does have a cast to pay) but he and his crew clearly go all out to get the maximum bang for their buck. Net profits for both would be seriously less because they put out the money, but audience satisfaction means the future is more assured. On the other hand, in a recent thread about the One Piece production, the clear shortfalls in production values were noted, and in Japan (unless the show has Yuzuru or Mao) it now matters.

And the contrast between the shows (even including Cirque and Disney on Ice) and the optics at competitions, at least so far this year, is painful. Okay, the GP series is not 'a production' and I guess they thought looking special doesn't matter so much in sport (I recently watched a Freddie Flintoff doco with he and other cricketers going all awestruck and misty-eyed and Britishly lyrical over the oldest cricket pitch in India. Which looked, apart from the pristine pitch... well, old) but apart from China and to a lesser extent Japan, what the live and web audience saw was a painful contrast (USFS, I am looking at you and you'd better do better in Boston).
 
Last edited:
Not because of story? Well... Story is the cheapest and easiest way how to avoid repetition and offer content that is unique. (This is also the main difference between Cirque du Soleil "modern circus" story-driven shows and variety shows of "traditional circus".) Let's not underestimate the story ;)
In case of Hyoen, there was strong story but also strong multi-genre performance, music, and visuals that helped to tell this story. In case of OPOI, there was much weaker production but the story was still there and I doubt that any merch offer would have worked without it. I can see your point when you imply that story alone can't justify high ticket price; but at the same time, the story can be a good reason that brings all other aspects together.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.
I am not implying that story alone can't justify high ticket price. I am saying that instead of story alone, higher ticket prices are driven by the technologies used in the ice shows and other factors. All the story-driven ice shows you mentioned are using higher end technologies (e.g., giant LED backscreen, projection mapping), some includes original merchs (which is not free), and there are also shows that invite performers outside of the skaters (e..g, singers). All these additional costs need to be calculated in the ticket price.

With this basis, I would also argue that story is not the cheapest and easiest way to avoid repetition and offer unique content. Hyoen 2024 and One Piece on Ice, for example, are using stories from a novel (CMIIW) and a manga. Thus, they have to pay for the copyrights to the original work owner, creating new programs to suit the narratives, and then creating a supporting environment (the LED backscreen and projection mapping). Yes, it is not repetitive and offer a unique content. It is not the cheapest and easiest way though.
However, when done right, it has the potential to reach a way bigger audience than the usual FS fans, based on the mutual interest. I've seen this happened with Final Fantasy and Undertale fans from Yuzu's RE_PRAY and now with Persona and Steiner's Gate fans from his Echoes of Life. He did it in a very smart way as well, as he provides video archives for those 'latecomers'.

For example, there are people who go to the theater every week and don't quit because "oh, we already saw theater the other week" - they go because every week they can see a different story. Then, why can't it be a story on ice, many stories on ice? 🤔

Do you mean cinema? Because I don't think that one theater group will provide a different story every week.

I suppose this thread is timely with Loena withdrawing from Europeans. She performed in many shows over the summer it seemed like many more than in previous off seasons, and it seems to have affected her 24/25 season because she came into the season not being in her usual conditioning. When you start preparing for the season late, you rush things, more chance of injury, etc.

It is very sad for her. You bring an valid point about rushings due to late preparation can lead to higher chance of injury. In this case, it seems like there is always a chance that skaters get injured due to ice shows participation. Late preparation, tiredness from participating in too many ice shows or because of multiple shows performance in a day, etc. And yet, fans cannot really do much about this because we do not know their situation. 😢
Hope she'll get better soon. :pray:

I know I have been guilty of saying Yuzu could attract an audience of thousands by stroking and spinning round the rink in black UAs :laugh: but he, Mikiko and is sponsors really put a hell of a lot of money and care into the production as a whole (except for the charity show, a special case).

MIKIKO said this in an interview about Echoes, "We live in an era where efficiency and cost-cutting are often prioritized, but this project is the opposite. It’s about taking the time to carefully address each step and deliberately choosing to do things that are labor-intensive."

Well, there's surely nothing efficient and cost-cutting as shown from this VCR. o_O
 
Last edited:
For example, there are people who go to the theater every week and don't quit because "oh, we already saw theater the other week" - they go because every week they can see a different story. Then, why can't it be a story on ice, many stories on ice? 🤔
I'm very much thinking about this lately. There's just SO much untapped potential in terms of stories and music that can be conveyed in ice shows, and now with the abundance of skaters and opportunities for them to do shows that wasn't there when only certain medalists can skate at ice shows, there is this potential to create more stories on ice in different scales and sizes. One of the shows I kept my eye on was Mao Asada's Everlasting33 show- unlike other ice shows, she brought her rink onto a smaller stage that's used for theater and ballet performances. Definitely can't convey ice coverage and speed that much there compared to bigger rinks, but it brings forward the potential of an ice show with that size.

It's going to be hard with the financial situation, but it would be great if Japan finds it way to a more sustainable industry of skating, which I think can support both show skating and competitive skating.

(Personally my dream is a classical ice show where they do Holst: The Planets and have different skaters embodying each piece / planet).
 
I don't think that one theater group will provide a different story every week.
Depends on the theater. If this is a repertory theater with multiple shows (20 to 30) in repertory, then 3-4 different shows every week would be a norm. But mostly, the variety is provided because there is more than one theater group in the town, plus touring shows.

I think production values - and costs - are a real factor in current shows and when we talk of gross receipts the different shows make we also have to consider the costs (cast/crew is also a bog expense)

I guess it's time for me to share my knowledge about show production :laugh:
I can only speak from my experience and my experience is a bit dated; also, there are aspects that differ from country to country. Nevertheless...

The first thing that my showbiz teacher said was: "You can't make money doing live shows. It's impossible. That's the rule you must always keep in mind. Most companies that produce live shows (theaters, circus, dance companies etc.) either struggle to find their balance or are in debt. And now, when you know it, if you want your show to happen anyway, we can start working. How do I know that you want your show to happen anyway? Because there are only two types of people in our business: people who love our business more than they love money and people who are desperate because they are incapable of doing anything else. So, let's go. When you produce a live show, your task is to figure out a way how to avoid bankruptcy resulting from your project and keep things going in future."

Why so? The show business is not like a normal business. In a normal business, you pay wages every day but you also earn a revenue every day. In show business, there is a pre-production period when you pay wages, pay your office expenses and work expenses, pay insurances and taxes, and earn nothing - and this period may last from several months to several years (good news: the staff employed during this period is usually small). Then, there is the production period when you hire lots of people, pay lots of wages, rent a lot of room for meetings, rehearsals, and dress rehearsals, buy materials for work, buy or rent technologies, pay for promotion. This period lasts from several weeks to several months. During this period, you spend big and earn nothing (good news: you can monitor the ticket sales online and show numbers to your sponsors lol). Technically, you are earning money from tickets sold. De facto, you'll receive the net revenue (gross revenue minus the share of ticket sellers and distributors, minus taxes,) later or much later (the term depends on your contract). It's recommended that you don't rely on ticket sales only because you can never know how much you sell. Instead, secure other income: sell CDs, booklets, T-shirts, chocolates etc., if you are doing big - sell the streaming/televising rights. Finally, the preparation and production is over: it's time for the show run! You rent even more expensive venue(s), hire extra staff, hire means of transportation if you intend to tour, and off you go. Hopefully, your shows are sold out and your extras sell well. This income will cover part of your production expenses. If you have a long enough run of sold-out shows, you may even cover all production expenses and have some money left. If you have a super-long show run (serious companies do), then the money made may be actually very good. However, to successfully replicate a show for 100 or more times, you need (apart of the show being popular with the public) a long tour or you need a venue in a place with great tourist flow (i.e. Las Vegas) and/or it may take a longer lapse of time and increase of initial investment. Which is not always the option.

It means that, even if you are many years in the business, most likely you don't earn enough to finance your next project. You need to find other ways to make it happen. You can:
1) Minimize the production expenses: buy or rent the cheapest things, hire volunteer staff that will work for free etc. (sounds awful but there are many good indie shows done this way);
2) Borrow money/find an investor: you can get a really big budget this way but this is only an option for serious production companies that have a history of long-run shows that actually make money;
3) Apply for grants: there are governmental and private foundations for this purpose. Keep in mind that you need to apply in advance (sometimes, a year before) and, since many projects will apply, your application is at risk of being declined;
4) Find sponsors... allright, this has been discussed elsewhere on this thread and this post is too long already :biggrin:

Looking with my eyes, neither Hyoen nor OPOI are money making shows. Simply, there are too few shows given. However, with everything put together - the sponsors, the tickets, the extras, the streaming rights - they might make the balance and end in black. Which is, in my eyes, the most important target.
Yuzuru's shows are actually an interesting case: they may be in minuses as well as in pluses depending on how much Yuzu the Manager pays Yuzu the Performer :laugh:... but there are other forum members who know this subject better than I do.
 
(Personally my dream is a classical ice show where they do Holst: The Planets and have different skaters embodying each piece / planet).
My dream show was for each performer to represent a famous wind concerto. Hanyu was the Haydn trumpet concerto in Eb major. Jason Brown was the Mozart oboe concerto in C. Javier Fernandez did Mozart's horn concerto #4. :)
 
Last edited:
Yuzuru's shows are actually an interesting case: they may be in minuses as well as in pluses depending on how much Yuzu the Manager pays Yuzu the Performer :laugh:... but there are other forum members who know this subject better than I do.
No one actually knows the figures (the boy and his family/team have always been very good at keeping things close to their chests, and Yuzu's sponsors are also credited with sponsoring the shows) but the production costs are certainly way way more than every other show anywhere, if not a whole heap of them put together. It's likely the profit margin on the shows themselves is not as huge as the gross figures suggest, he has plenty of other ways to get rich if he wants them :biggrin:

On the other hand, a study by university economists in mid-July 2023 estimated the impact of Yuzuru's first year as professional on the whole Japanese economy at over $126 million US in this first pro year (17.6 billion yen) and they admitted that was a conservative estimate (They also mention that based on their estimate, Yuzuru 'increased the income of employees working in Japan by about 4.449 billion yen'. Can we all borrow him, please?) No wonder Japan as a whole is all for him skating on as long as he wants :laugh: and he's not the only one who is recognised for their positive impact on the local economies of where they hold shows. While I have no figures and don't follow them, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bigger Russian stars have a positive economic impact there.

My dream show was for each performer to represent a famous wind concerto. Hanyu was the Haydn trumpet concerto in Eb major. Jason Brown was the Mozart oboe concerto in C. Javier Fernandez did Mozart's horn concerto #4. :)
Hey, one of my dreams came true this year with him skating to Bach....

(But a lot of my favourite music is simply never going to be skated to, I am still sulkily learning to live with it)
 
Last edited:
Depends on the theater. If this is a repertory theater with multiple shows (20 to 30) in repertory, then 3-4 different shows every week would be a norm. But mostly, the variety is provided because there is more than one theater group in the town, plus touring shows.
Means, theater here is the venue, correct? I think that’s a different topic altogether.

Yuzuru's shows are actually an interesting case: they may be in minuses as well as in pluses depending on how much Yuzu the Manager pays Yuzu the Performer :laugh:... but there are other forum members who know this subject better than I do.
It’s not Yuzu the manager pays Yuzu the performer. It’s actually Yuzu the executive producer pays Yuzu the performer, Yuzu the choreographer, and Yuzu the writer. :wink:

In his case, he did say that “Ice shows are not that profitable” in one of his interviews last year, but since he refused to minimize the production expenses I’d say he is in a sizeable black. After all, if GIFT with it’s gigantic production scale for one night performance only can make a profit, I don’t see why his other Ice Stories cannot.
 
I haven't read everything in ths thread, but I have a nice example of when there is mutual beneficiality. Holiday on Ice (a big show, sometimes with big names) in The Netherlands has made an agreement with a Figure Skating promoting foundation that in every show two of the skaters promoted (and funded a little bit) by this foundation can do a show programme - mostly right after the official break. In this manner young talents who compete, can do a show programme (sometimes just a variant of their SP or FS) and work on their performance skills. It's only one or two outings, the audience loves it, and it helps the skater(s) to enjoy being watched and cheered on by a big crowd which they can use in competitions later. I visited one of the shows, and could see (and I sat very close to the ice) they enjoyed it. Some possibilities for meet & greet afterwards as well. Obviously there is also money involved, these skaters can use every penny, as our Dutch skating federation is not really interested in Figure skating and the available money goes elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
Then again, Taylor Swift's live Eras tour grossed US$ 2 billion in ticket sales last year.

Speaking of The Planets, the previous record gross for a live tour was Coldplay's Music of the Spheres.

Many musicians, regardless of their level of fame, tour a lot because that's the main way to make money these days, as record sales have plummeted since the advent of streaming platforms (and prior to that illegal sharing).
 
Means, theater here is the venue, correct? I think that’s a different topic altogether.
The show and the venue have the same name for reason: theatrical shows are typically given in theater houses. Just like ice shows, theatrical shows also need a specifically equipped venue for the show purpose.
Many musicians, regardless of their level of fame, tour a lot because that's the main way to make money these days, as record sales have plummeted since the advent of streaming platforms (and prior to that illegal sharing).
I'd really like to know how much Tailor's show would have grossed if live shows was her only way to make money: no musical records, no airplay, no television, no streaming - just Tailor singing live.
I'm afraid that would take us back to the beginning of the century when she sung in pubs.
 
I'd really like to know how much Tailor's show would have grossed if live shows was her only way to make money: no musical records, no airplay, no television, no streaming - just Tailor singing live.
I'm afraid that would take us back to the beginning of the century when she sung in pubs.
I think that the model for ice skating used to be the same. Ice skating stars attract pubic attention by winning national and world medals, being on TV in the Olympics, etc. Then they try to cash in by doing tours and shows.

Nowadays there just isn't much money in the sport at any level. :(
 
Back
Top