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- Nov 7, 2007
I must say that I really enjoyed Katrina Hacker's program. She skated beautifully. She just needs the flip and the lutz in her repertoire.
Ladies SP
- Thread starter bibi
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About the technical judge of COC 2008, Ms. Susan Lynch...
She was the technical judge of COR men's last year.. And she gave an 'e' to Kozuka, who does the perfect flip, while accepting Johnny's lip as a flip. Funnier thing is, Kozuka didn't get 'e' on LP. (And Johnny never got an 'e' through out the whole competition which Ms. Susan Lynch positioned as a technical judge..)
Also, she gave Kevin an 'e' to a lutz while passing Kevin's other lutz jumps..
This Chinese guy got 'e' on flip at a SP, but didn't get 'e' on a LP...
I don't think she is one of the most reliable judges...
She was the technical judge of COR men's last year.. And she gave an 'e' to Kozuka, who does the perfect flip, while accepting Johnny's lip as a flip. Funnier thing is, Kozuka didn't get 'e' on LP. (And Johnny never got an 'e' through out the whole competition which Ms. Susan Lynch positioned as a technical judge..)
Also, she gave Kevin an 'e' to a lutz while passing Kevin's other lutz jumps..
This Chinese guy got 'e' on flip at a SP, but didn't get 'e' on a LP...
I don't think she is one of the most reliable judges...
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
Do you mean she is the technical controller of ladies' SP of COC this year?
I woke up too early to watch the game
and I'm getting a headache;
anyhow, how the CoC camera's set up, nothing is totally visible;
some skaters disappear suddenly and reappear in a different position
as if they were teleporting (which is an amazing ability that I have not acquired)
Anyhow, is it just me that the ISU are trying to play game on people
by bending the rules here and there applying to this player not that player
just to make the skating "exciting" so that it can still be an Olympic game
and not phasing out like "baseball"?
and I'm getting a headache;
anyhow, how the CoC camera's set up, nothing is totally visible;
some skaters disappear suddenly and reappear in a different position
as if they were teleporting (which is an amazing ability that I have not acquired)
Anyhow, is it just me that the ISU are trying to play game on people
by bending the rules here and there applying to this player not that player
just to make the skating "exciting" so that it can still be an Olympic game
and not phasing out like "baseball"?
No, I wasn't. I specifically said that I was providing link to a high-res video to SA, because the combo was mentioned by some posters before. And that combo was discussed in terms of its downgradability at least as much as in terms of the flip edge.
As for the 3F+3T in the CoC SP, the outside edge is even more obvious than at the SA LP, and it also lasted longer. You could see it in the YT video that I provided the link for (pay special attention to the slow-mo replay). I'm watching the high-resolution video I just downloaded, and I can confirm that it is every bit as obvious an outside edge here as it was on the YT video, if anything the high resolution makes it more apparent.
Again the center of gravity idea is another intuition that usually goes with edges: if you're on an outside edge, then you normally have your center of gravity on the outside, and your tracing is curving to the outside; vice versa if you're on an inside edge. In Yu-na's case, her tracing is very flat (no obvious curving to the outside) and her center of gravity is also not on the outside. It is precisely because her center of gravity is not on the outside, that she can be on an outside edge without having a tracing curving to the outside. And she can do this because of the way she's picking her other foot: her weight is shared between the two legs, so even though her left foot contacts the ice on the outside edge, overall her weight is in between the legs, and her direction of motion does not swerve along the outside curve.
However, what defines the edge of a jump take off is the *edge*, not the tracing or the body rotation or the center of gravity (these are just heuristics that typically go along with the edge, but not always, and clearly not in Yu-na's flip's case), that's why it's called an edge! If a tech panel wants to be literal in interpreting the edge definition, then it's very understandable why they gave Yu-na's flip an edge call.
By the way, the edge calls (and all other calls) are not made by a single tech caller or controller, it's by the panel of all three people.
Another thing I hate about the tech/judge panel distinction: why have such a small number of people (tech panel) determine the whole outcome (as so often it has) with these borderline, inconsistent calls? They can easily make human mistakes or have personal biases, just as judges can. At least give the power to a large panel of people from all different countries and different schools of skating, so that the biases and mistakes are averaged out.
Yuna Kim's Flip converted to Computer Graphic
I don't know if you guys can see the pictures..
So tell me if the picture doesn't show up
flip jumpers with 3-turn do have almost flat blades when they are jumping.
also, almost flat edge is considered to be a better quality jump because those jumps don't have that much of pre-rotations.
yuna's flip is not a lip..
I don't know if you guys can see the pictures..
So tell me if the picture doesn't show up
flip jumpers with 3-turn do have almost flat blades when they are jumping.
also, almost flat edge is considered to be a better quality jump because those jumps don't have that much of pre-rotations.
yuna's flip is not a lip..
Thank you for your insightful post. I am not knowledgeable about this matter, but your explanation helps me understand why this issue seems to have long been so controversial on the net--- some ppl say it's lip while others say it's flip --- and I didn't think it only about the fans vs. anti-fans craziness; each would have some rationales.
I am neither expert nor following her flip closely or long time. But her flip on slow mo at this time looked in my non-expert eyes just the same as what she had at her SA long program (I haven't checked her SA short program yet). She did not get an edge call there, but she did here, which was interesting to me. If Yuna can be on the inside *curve* using a shallow outside *edge*, does it mean that she is not really using her edge there, but using the speed, momentum, and toe-pick to take off? In any case, her flip seems to be almost on the flat edge to me whereas her lutz seems to have a much deeper edge.
oh right, srry about that
i said it earlier, but how is it possible to skate into *inside curve* while someones on *outside edge*? Inside curve means a curve made by blade when someone's skating on *inside edge*. No one can skate into *inside curve* while his/her outside edge is touching the ice, it's not only literally ironic, but also technically not possible.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
I know you talked about underrotation of SA with this video, but you also mentioned edge call with the same video. That's why I pointed it out.
And, still you didn't talked about whether your considered the convention of 1/4 rotation less for judging an UR. I would appreciate your answer.
Also, from her flips of SA and your logic on curve and edge, I've got another question for you.
You mentioned inside edge makes inside curve. From her filp video of SA, after straight line entrance after 3 turn, her left foot clearly turns inside just before take-off. But, you said the edge is clearly outside at that moment. Dosen't it contradict with your theory?
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
Oh, you are asking the same question to feraina with me. Based on his theory (and I believe it is reasonable), her inside curve before the take-off contradicts with his argument of her having outside edge.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
chamisul, would you explain how the computer graphics is made. Without it, I think the picture itself does not look that convincing.
yes, i will..
i actually drew it cuz it's kinda hard to describe in words.
http://cfs11.tistory.com/image/13/tistory/2008/11/07/11/18/4913a5866c746
if you can't see the picture, tell me
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this is exactly what i'm talking about..
she has inside curve before the take-off, so she has inside edge when she takes off, right? how can she have outside edge when she takes off if she is coming in with inside curve?
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
If your picture works, Kim would need a great amount of leaning to the right to be able to still achieve the inside edge with her ankle already bent like that. Sorry, I just don't think that's a natural anatomy of the human ankle, neither would the hard skates aloow her to do that. And not to mention you could also potentially draw a lot of pictures to show that the skaters who flutz, are actually really taking off from an outside but with their ankle bent inward...... Appreciate the work though.
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what do you want me to do?
do you want me to actually wear a skate and do that for you? i bet you can't say a word when i actually show you doing that.
you said that's not the natural anatomy? than can you even move your ankle? cuz i can put my ankle outwards like that, that is possible because everybody can bend their ankles 'outwards'
oh, wait a minute... somebody wanted me to show how yuna has 'outwards ankle' when she is using 'inside edge'... that's how she jumps, she uses 'very light' inside edge while her ankle's outwards. That is possible because she uses 'ALMOST FLAT inside edge.' (and jumping with almost flat inside edge is the right method for 3-turn users like yuna) When you look at other 3-turn users, their ankles are also bent outwards.
BUT no other skaters who flutz takes from outside with ankle bent inward because they use DEEP inside edge, which makes their ankles impossible to bent inwards. got it?
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Thanx, chamisul. I think I understand better now. I am guessing the ankle would bend outward probably right after(a fraction of a second after, not at the same time as your drawing shows) the inside-edge of her blade hits the ice, when she takes off. If she really used her inside-edge, this makes sense.
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