2025 Worlds: Women's thoughts and comments

[Joekaz]

It is so wearying to see post after post after post strumming on the same one-string guitar: Poor me, poor, me, poor me, everybody;s picking on me, everybody's picking on me.

Karen Chen? Now there's a blast from the past! Evberybody's picking on (three-time world champion) Kaori Sakamoto. Everybody's picking on the (world and Olympic champions) Russian ladies. Poor babies.

If we must reach back to Karen Chen of all people on this thread about 2025 worlds -- Chen was a lovely, graceful and emotive skater with fine skating skills and strong presentation qualities who delivered quite a few excellent short programs in her career. She lacked consistency on her jumps and was challenged to get through long programs error-free, which held her back internationally. The same pattern occurred at 2017 worlds -- she was way ahead of Mai Mihara in the SP, finished behind Mihara in the LP, but Mihara couldn't quite make up the ten-point deficit and finished fifth with Chen 4th. This is not a vast conspiracy by the Illuminati.

The point of the post was not Karen Chen. It was of the discrepancy in scoring of Sakamoto in pre Olympic World's compared to Americans. Corruption, political influence, and incompetence in judging in figure skating is not a fictional grand conspiracy. It's an accepted part of the sport for most people with common sense. Pointing that out may get old, but it is the truth. Unfortunately you seem to enjoy keeping your head in the sand. As for Karen Chen, she was indeed a beautiful skater. She might have been much more successful if the ISU wasn't obsessed with allowing cheated takeoffs by allowing 180 degrees prerotation (which they don't even enforce) on lutz and flip, instead of a more proper 90 degrees. A beautiful 3/2 should indeed be worth more than a cheated 3/3.

 

[Mathman]

Let me try again to explain what my beef is. I strenuously object to the "Proof by Intimidation" argument. It goes like this:

"What I am telling you is the TRUTH. Logically, you have only two alternatives: (a) you can accept what I say as the truth or (b) you can withold your acceptance, thus exposing yourself as a fool."

Well, gosh. I don't think I am a fool, and even if I did I wouldn't want it to be exposed. So (b) is out. Therefore, logically speaking, (a) must be correct, QED.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The thing that used to set Sakamoto apart was her Triple Flip and +3Toe combos had really great length and flow. Those jumps have become more tentative for her, so she became more vulnerable this season. But really, it's the recent level of competition (quite low) that allowed her to become a 3-time world champion. She's never had great body line or amazing artistry, and her Lutz always has the edge issue (it did improve somewhat, but it's never fully on the outside edge when she takes off). Wakaba Higuchi's 2018 Worlds long program. which should have won that competition, is a bit more impressive to me than any from Sakamoto. I did like Sakamoto's Chicago program a lot this season, but the regression of the jumps overshadows it a bit.

 

[Joekaz]

Let me try again to explain what my beef is. I strenuously object to the "Proof by Intimidation" argument. It goes like this:

"What I am telling you is the TRUTH. Logically, you have only two alternatives: (a) you can accept what I say as the truth or (b) you can withold your acceptance, thus exposing yourself as a fool."

Well, gosh. I don't think I am a fool, and even if I did I wouldn't want it to be exposed. So (b) is out. Therefore, logically speaking, (a) must be correct, QED.

Or you can simply disagree and say you don't believe it is the truth, and we can agree to disagree. You think Im too skeptical and I think you are naive. I didn't mean to intimidate you my friend.

 

[Joekaz]

The thing that used to set Sakamoto apart was her Triple Flip and +3Toe combos had really great length and flow. Those jumps have become more tentative for her, so she became more vulnerable this season. But really, it's the recent level of competition (quite low) that allowed her to become a 3-time world champion. She's never had great body line or amazing artistry, and her Lutz always has the edge issue (it did improve somewhat, but it's never fully on the outside edge when she takes off). Wakaba Higuchi's 2018 Worlds long program. which should have won that competition, is a bit more impressive to me than any from Sakamoto. I did like Sakamoto's Chicago program a lot this season, but the regression of the jumps overshadows it a bit.

Her lutz is clearly on the inside edge. She flips it at the last moment after she taps. It should be an e, but is rarely called.

 

[Mathman]

Well, , I am in a better mood today today. Why? Because I rewatched Karen Chen's SPs at
at 2017 Worlds and at 2021 Worlds.

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www.youtube.com

 

[Mathman]

PS, In anticipation of responses, no she was not called for short rotation on the second jump of her 3Lz+3T combination. In fact the tech panel did not call hardly any URs in the whole segment, and none on the top 11. Chen did get a < on her solo Lutz in the LP, while Mariah Belll got one in the SP and Ashley Wagner got two <s and an e. in the LP. It sure looked like someone was out to sabotage America's hope of getting three Olympic spots doesn't it?.

No, it doesn't.

But just to allay my natural suspicions I looked up to see who was the technical specialist. Vanessa Gusmerole (France).. Gusmerole has acquired a reputation of being a strict caller. I do not have an opinion about that, but I did learn that after she retired from skating in 2002 she continued for another year in her second sport and won the silver medal at the 2003 European Water-skiing Championship. Is that cool or what?!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Her lutz is clearly on the inside edge. She flips it at the last moment after she taps. It should be an e, but is rarely called.

That is not the definition of an 'e' jump.

 

[Joekaz]

That is not the definition of an 'e' jump.

An e jump is leaving the ice on the wrong edge. That is exactly what she does. She approaches the jump on the outside edge, but as she taps she flips it to an inside edge and takes off in the inside edge. That is exactly the definition of e. She has done that for years, and only occasionally gets a !, which is too lenient.

 

[Arigato]

Sakamoto

WC 2021

SP 3 Lz e
FS 3 Lz e

WC 2022

SP
FS 3 Lz !

WC 2023

SP
FS

WC 2024

SP 3 Lz !
FS 3 Lz e

WC 2025

SP
FS

 

[Joekaz]

Sakamoto

WC 2021

SP 3 Lz e
FS 3 Lz e

WC 2022

SP
FS 3 Lz !

WC 2023

SP
FS

WC 2024

SP 3 Lz !
FS 3 Lz e

WC 2025

SP
FS

Wow. So looking closer at the whole grand prix seasons in the 4 years after the 2021 WC it comes to 8 regular GPs, 4 WC, 3 GPF, and 1 Oly. Thats a total of 16 events with 32 Lutzes for Kaori. She was scored clean in 20(62.5%), got ! in 10 (31%), and 2 e (6%). So it seems my memory was fairly accurate.

 

[Arigato]

Wow. So looking closer at the whole grand prix seasons in the 4 years after the 2021 WC [...]

You mean ignoring WC data in my post that was inconvenient for your position. I simply went backwards in WC data until Covid. No big deal. In short, it wasn't that hard to find her 3Lz edge being called out. Having said that, I certainly hope someone isn't reckless enough to assume a skater can't ever fix a problem - whether it's an edge or a rotation issue. Vincent Zhou got so many q and < calls for a long stretch of time that Johnny Weir actually wondered out loud, on air, if they were all now just assuming every jump of his was under-rotated. It took quite some time before the q and < started to come off his jumps. He worked his ass off. It can be done. And if Vincent could make his jumps better, Sakamoto could certainly do the same with a Lutz edge.

If anyone were to automatically assume every 3Lz of hers requires an edge call, or by not getting one is "proof" of something nefarious going on, or suggesting that she isn't capable of ever executing a clean 3Lz, that tells me something else may be going on with those onlookers that has nothing to do with her actual skating.

 

[Joekaz]

You mean ignoring WC data in my post that was inconvenient for your position. I simply went backwards in WC data until Covid. No big deal. In short, it wasn't that hard to find her 3Lz edge being called out. Having said that, I certainly hope someone isn't reckless enough to assume a skater can't ever fix a problem - whether it's an edge or a rotation issue. Vincent Zhou got so many q and < calls for a long stretch of time that Johnny Weir actually wondered out loud, on air, if they were all now just assuming every jump of his was under-rotated. It took quite some time before the q and < started to coff his jumps. He worked his ass off. It can be done. And if Vincent could make his jumps better, Sakamoto could certainly do the same with a Lutz edge.

If anyone were to automatically assume every 3Lz of hers requires an edge call, or by not getting one is "proof" of something nefarious going on, or suggesting that she isn't capable of ever executing a clean 3Lz, that tells me something else may be going on with those onlookers that has nothing to do with her actual skating.

Actually I was going to look at the data for the GP events of that WC year, but those were all domestic competitions because of Covid so I didn't think that would be relevant. Since I didn't include the season, I didn't include that seasons WC either. However I posted your full stats in my reply for everyone to see. Adding 2 more e wouldn't really change the point of the data much, now would it? But the fact is that she has only gotten 2 more e in the 4 years since then. Everyone knows Kaori has always had flutz issues. Maybe the technique she uses to hide her wrong edge I previously described was used during the last 4 years to better fool the judges. Im not sure when she started doing it or if she always has done it that way. I only said I have noticed it for years, not her whole career. Please don't let my opinions on skating upset you my friend.

 

[Mathman]

Everyone knows...

Please, please, please, Joe. "Everybody knows X" is simply a falsehood, independent of X.

I am at my wits' end.

 

[Joekaz]

Please, please, please, Joe. "Everybody knows X" is simply a falsehood, independent of X.

I am at my wits' end.

My apologies. I should have said in my opinion most reasonable people with reasonable knowledge of this sport with reasonable common sense instead of everybody. I certainly hope you have more wits left now my friend. Without them this blog would be much less entertaining.

 

[Mathman]

I certainly hope you have more wits left now my friend.

You have won me over by kindness and politeness. Carry on.

(Just don't get me started on the quality of skating in the men's LP at todays's World Team event. )

 

[Arigato]

Everyone knows Kaori has always had flutz issues.

Choose your words better.

Vincent Zhou frequently had under-rotation issues before getting a handle on them as his skating improved. I would no more accuse him of under-rotating every jump than I would accuse Sakamoto of executing every 3Lz incorrectly. But then I'm not blind. Nor is Belinda Noonan:



3Lz Base 5.90 GOE 1.94

 

[Joekaz]

Choose your words better.

Vincent Zhou frequently had under-rotation issues before getting a handle on them as his skating improved. I would no more accuse him of under-rotating every jump than I would accuse Sakamoto of executing every 3Lz incorrectly. But then I'm not blind. Nor is Belinda Noonan:



3Lz Base 5.90 GOE 1.94

Again, Kaori has a nice outside edge leading into the jump. But as she picks you can see her change to inside edge as she leaves the ice. This is actually one of the best ones I've ever seen her do, although it may be the angle (unfortunately in the closeup her skating foot leaves the frame on takeoff) But based off this angle I could see her getting ! instead of e. To my knowledge she has had edge issues with the lutz her entire career. Is that wrong?

 

[Mathman]

As for me, I cannot see in these data any evidence that there is a big sinister conspiracy alternately to push Kaori forward and then to hold her back by crooked scoring, now one way, now the other. Lots of skaters sometimes get called for a q or a ! and sometimes don't.

There are many borderline calls that can -- and do -- go one way or another. The challenge to the skater is to be so perfect every time out that there can be no question. Easier said than done.

 

[RatedPG]

After WTT, I’m glad Alysa is the world champion. The reason she deserves it is because she goes and lands all her planned triples. Also, her 3T on the combo looks more fully rotated than under the q.

If Alysa stays healthy, she just won herself an Olympic gold medal next year, as I’m certain team USA will not leave the reigning World Champion off the team event. This couldn’t happen to a more deserving athlete.