Status of junior women being allowed to jump solo 3As in the SP? | Golden Skate

Status of junior women being allowed to jump solo 3As in the SP?

DougDorsey

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
During this past season's junior events, Ted and Mark seemed to hint that, for 25/26, the ISU was planning to start allowing junior women to perform solo 3As in the SP.

This would make sense, now that the age change has resulted in older women competing in juniors, and now that there are numerous junior women from a variety of countries performing 3As. (I'm almost certain there were more junior women attempting 3As this past season than there were senior women.)

Also, I think people have finally come to realize that having girls like Sophie Joline von Felten attempt 3A+3Ts in the SP is more risky, from an injury standpoint, than simply allowing them to perform solo 3As like their counterparts in junior mens.

Has there been any update on this? When would such a rule change be announced? (Ted and Mark made it sound like it would be implemented prior to the 25/26 season.)
 
The short program requirements for the short program are in the Technical Rules (on page 107.) If the ISU wanted to change them for this season, the time to do it would've been last year at Congress since that's where those changes are made. That would need to go through the Technical Committee and then be put up for vote.

Unless a larger number of Junior Women opt to attempt a 3A-3T in the short, I doubt that they'll change it. The loophole is there for the skaters that want to take the risk, but the risk isn't worth it for most skaters.
 
Unless a larger number of Junior Women opt to attempt a 3A-3T in the short, I doubt that they'll change it. The loophole is there for the skaters that want to take the risk, but the risk isn't worth it for most skaters.

I agree that taking advantage of the loophole generally isn't worth it. But that's part of the reason why allowing solo 3As makes a lot of sense. You have a significant number of junior women at this point who regularly train the 3A and jump it in the FS. What's the point of continuing to prohibit it as a solo jump in the SP? Especially when junior men can do so, as well as senior women and men, of course.
 
I agree that taking advantage of the loophole generally isn't worth it. But that's part of the reason why allowing solo 3As makes a lot of sense. You have a significant number of junior women at this point who regularly train the 3A and jump it in the FS. What's the point of continuing to prohibit it as a solo jump in the SP? Especially when junior men can do so, as well as senior women and men, of course.
Because the technical committee wants skaters to work on specific jumps and spins for the SP? They're not letting the Junior Men go for quads in the short even though several of them go for it in the free. They also only have one chance for the combo in the short and can't add it to the required solo jump. They know what skills they want to see from the Juniors in the short, and 3As for the women aren't one of those skills.

Even if they did allow it in the SP, I don't think there'd be many Junior Women going for it over a 2A. There were 10 3A attempts in the Junior Women free skate at 2025 JWC, only 3 of them had positive GOE. And of the 5 3A attempts at 2024 JWC, none of them had positive GOE. If there were more Junior Women who had it as a stable jump and were going for the 3A-3T loophole, I could see an argument. But they aren't making a strong one for the technical committee.
 
Because the technical committee wants skaters to work on specific jumps and spins for the SP?

That's a pretty weak argument. A skater isn't going to be attempting a 3A if they don't already have a solid 2A. Skaters who have strong 2As and feel ready to attempt 3As can have that option, and those that don't can continue to focus on 2As. There's no reason to impose restrictions.

Also, there were only three senior women who landed a 3A with positive GOE the entire international season, and only one who did it more than once.

So, by your logic, should we start restricting/removing 3As from senior womens programs, since senior women aren't "making a strong argument" for including them?

Or should we recognize the possibility that restricting the 3A in junior womens is leading to a situation where women don't have ample opportunity and incentive to get comfortable performing the jump in a competitive setting?
 
That's a pretty weak argument. A skater isn't going to be attempting a 3A if they don't already have a solid 2A. Skaters who have strong 2As and feel ready to attempt 3As can have that option, and those that don't can continue to focus on 2As. There's no reason to impose restrictions.

Also, there were only three senior women who landed a 3A with positive GOE the entire international season, and only one who did it more than once.

So, by your logic, should we start restricting/removing 3As from senior womens programs, since senior women aren't "making a strong argument" for including them?

Or should we recognize the possibility that restricting the 3A in junior womens is leading to a situation where women don't have ample opportunity and incentive to get comfortable performing the jump in a competitive setting?
It is the Technical Committee that sets the requirements for the short program. They can impose whatever restrictions they want on the short.

I don't see them changing their mind. Maybe there's a reason they emphasize skills to work on in the short for all the Juniors. They have the chance to jump it in the free if they want, there's the opportunity to compete it before turning Senior. They can also compete as Seniors domestically and have the chance to do it there.

I'm not seeing the need that you do to have it in the short, so I will move on from this.
 
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Age restrictions for senior participation make less and less sense the more that it becomes apparent that juniors can do the same elements as seniors. This has been the case since 2006 when Mao Asada had to sit out of the Olympics, but if you're going to have juniors do identical required elements as the seniors then it's really pointless to prevent anyone good enough from competing as a senior.
 
Age restrictions for senior participation make less and less sense the more that it becomes apparent that juniors can do the same elements as seniors. This has been the case since 2006 when Mao Asada had to sit out of the Olympics, but if you're going to have juniors do identical required elements as the seniors then it's really pointless to prevent anyone good enough from competing as a senior.

If you need to artificially restrict the elements junior women are permitted to perform in order to justify the sport's age restrictions, it means something is really broken about your sport.

Mao Shimada would have won senior Worlds by eight points even with these restrictions. With these restrictions lifted, i.e. with a SP 3A and a FS stsq, she would have won by what, close to 20 points?

It's troubling that the ISU would be worried about "optics" instead of acknowledging that their sport is seriously backwards when the "World Champion" doesn't come close to representing the best athletes the sport has to offer.

(Mao, BTW, is the same age Alysa was when she competed in the Beijing Olympics, so it's hardly like she's a little girl any more.)
 
Age restrictions for senior participation make less and less sense the more that it becomes apparent that juniors can do the same elements as seniors. This has been the case since 2006 when Mao Asada had to sit out of the Olympics, but if you're going to have juniors do identical required elements as the seniors then it's really pointless to prevent anyone good enough from competing as a senior.
Hi, Miss Daisy. Glad to see you posting again.

To me, there are two points. First, about age restrictions, I think that the impetus for age restrictions was not so much that juniors can't do hard technical elements, but rather that mixing children in with adults raises other kinds of concerns.

As for prohibiting ultra C elements in the short program, I think that both juniors and seniors and both men and women have seen an evolution in terms of what the short program (formerly called the technical program) is all about. Originally I believe that the idea of the technical program was to require a list of specific elements and then judge the skaters on how well they perform the elements on the list. For jumps the requirements rotated. This year it might be a double loop, next year iit might be a double flip. In order for this to work, the required elements had to be something that all top skaters at the appropriate level could do. There would be no point in putting a triple Axel on the ladies' list of required jumps if only three skaters in the world can do it at all, junior or senior.

Over the years this model has gradually been abandoned to the point where now the SP is just another LP, only (mercifully IMHO) shorter. That is, the ISU has been moving more towards anything goes and may the devil take the hindmost. This would be an argument in favor of letting juniors do a triple Axel in the SP if they can, and too bad for those who can't.

But in that case, why do we need a short program at all? Every so often the idea is floated of replacing the short program and the long program by two programs of equal length but different focus -- a technical program emphasizing high octane fireworks and an "artistic program" where jumps would be limited and "second mark" values elevated to prominence. I can see merit in such proposals, although we might have to sacrifice the idea of a "balanced program" with something for everyone all woven together. (Another hallowed figure skating concept that is in jeopardy of being swept away these days, in my opinion.)
 
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Age restrictions for senior participation make less and less sense the more that it becomes apparent that juniors can do the same elements as seniors.
Only if the point of separating ages were about which elements the athletes do.

Swimmers all do the same strokes, but they are separated by age until senior level. (Although occasionally 15- to 18-year-olds have both gone to the Olympics and also competed locally in age group events.) Same for many other sports -- the specific skills used in competition are pretty much the same, it's the quality that differs.

It so happens that for rotational elements (jumps and spins), smaller body size is an advantage. So on those elements, and often those elements alone, at least the rotational aspects thereof, younger skaters may show greater difficulty than older skaters, especially in the case of teen girls.

In terms of actual SKATING across the ice on edges (the fundamental basis of what figure skating is all about, more important than rotating in the air or in place on the ice), on average skaters tend to improve on those skills as young adults compared to when they were younger teens. The best young teens may be better than the average 20-year-olds, but assuming they are still competing at 19 or 20 themselves they will likely be stronger SKATERS by then than they were at 13 or 15, even if they can no longer rotate as quickly in the air.

Case in point, Alysa Liu. And that's with a couple of years off in between in her case.

And then of course there are performance aspects that go into the program component scores. Again, the very best junior performers may be better than the average seniors, but for any given skater the performance qualities tend to improve as they move into senior age group.

This has been the case since 2006 when Mao Asada had to sit out of the Olympics, but if you're going to have juniors do identical required elements as the seniors then it's really pointless to prevent anyone good enough from competing as a senior.

As @Mathman points out, the reason for dividing competition by age is not so much about seniors doing harder elements, but about the social/emotional effects of children competing against adults.

Where (what age) to draw the line between child and adult and how much if any overlap should be allowed between age groups are separate questions that have little to do with which elements are being performed.

If you need to artificially restrict the elements junior women are permitted to perform in order to justify the sport's age restrictions, it means something is really broken about your sport.
I don't think the point of restricting the solo axel jump in the junior women's SP is to justify the age restrictions. Those are two separate issues.

There are always exceptions, but in general women's rotational ability tends to peak in mid-teens, while their other skills are more likely to continue to improve into mid-20s and sometimes beyond. (Whereas for men, their jumping ability tends to improve with physical maturity, at least into mid-20s.)

It's realistic to expect that the very best female jump difficulty will be seen by the top juniors, that the average jump difficulty in the final group of a junior free skate is higher than that in the final group of seniors.

If these jumps are successfully rotated and landed, we'd expect the jump content to represent a larger percentage of the junior women's scores, especially vs. PCS, compared to the jump vs. PCS balance in seniors.

How that should be reflected in short program requirements is another question.

There's certainly a case for allowing solo 3A in the junior women's short program. It would not be a travesty to allow it. But it would separate a tiny percentage of girls who can do that element (maybe a couple dozen worldwide who give it a try, just a fraction of that amount at any given championship if those who try are concentrated in just a few federations) from the many hundreds of skaters who compete on the JGP and other junior competitions internationally and domestically.

At the top jumping level, it would also give an advantage to junior women who can do 3A but no quads a big SP advantage over junior women who can do one or more quads but not 3A.

For similar reasons, it would not be a travesty to disallow it for senior women as well.

At least until there are significant numbers of women/girls successfully performing these elements in free skates on a regular basis -- more than one or two or even five or six per championship.

Look at how many senior men were doing 3A or attempting quads as of 1998, before the SP rules finally changed to allow to allow a quad, or a triple as the required axel jump.
 
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Still, @DougDorsey does raise a provocative point. If skinny 14-year-old girls are just naturally equipped by nature to be able to whip around faster in the air than more mature and nuanced athletes, then maybe figure skating IS wrong to put so much emphasis on this juvenile skill. (?)
 
Well, if there were a sport of ice jumping, it would be a sport that would favor younger jumpers and maybe wouldn't have as strong an over-18 field of adult women.
Or maybe different kinds of ice jumping that give more weight to different kinds of jump difficulty instead of rotation in the air -- other kinds of difficult in-air positions that are less about rotation (as was the case earlier in the sport's history). Or more emphasis on edgework and difficult transitions between jumps in combos and sequences, including jumps in different directions or from more difficult takeoff edges (double walleys, anyone?).

For men, even with the emphasis on in-air rotation the over-18-year-olds would mostly outjump the teen boys. Until they get too injured.

But as long as skating in the sense of edges on ice is the name of the game, then perhaps the rules and scoring need to be adjusted to give less weight to what happens in the air and more to what happens on the ice. Removing one jump pass after next season is one small step in that direction.
 
If you need to artificially restrict the elements junior women are permitted to perform in order to justify the sport's age restrictions, it means something is really broken about your sport.

Mao Shimada would have won senior Worlds by eight points even with these restrictions. With these restrictions lifted, i.e. with a SP 3A and a FS stsq, she would have won by what, close to 20 points?

It's troubling that the ISU would be worried about "optics" instead of acknowledging that their sport is seriously backwards when the "World Champion" doesn't come close to representing the best athletes the sport has to offer.

(Mao, BTW, is the same age Alysa was when she competed in the Beijing Olympics, so it's hardly like she's a little girl any more.)
The world championships aren't even a second division as you allude to, it's actually a third or fourth division in a way. The best women are Russian seniors, then Russian juniors, World juniors, then World seniors.

It's all about engineering an outcome as we had at 4CC, World's and WTT this past season. And it is especially about engineering an outcome for Milan 2026.

The ISU don't want another champion or a podium filled with women from Russia or East Asia. Bad for their marketing goals.
 
Alysa Liu is mentioned above as the poster child in this discussion. In her first (and only) season on the Junior Grand Prix at age 14 her SP jump layout was 3A+3T, 2A (required) and 3 Lo. She was not completely successful on every element every time out, but for instance in the Junior Grand Prix Final she placed first in the SP over 2nd place Usacheva (2A, 3Lo, 3F+3T) and 4th place Valieva (3Lo, 2A, 3Lz+3T).

Her standard jump layout in the LP featured two triple Axels and a quad utz, but in the final she over-reached, tried two triple Axels and two quad Lutzes, one in combination with a triple toe, got a flub and three URs and Valieva overtook her despite starting out with a relatively unexciting 2A, 2A, 3Lo, 3F+2T.

Liu also got level 4s on all of her spins and mostly solid GOEs. Her PCSs were all in the 6s and 7s. Quite a difference from her 2025 world championship LP! I for one am holding my breath to see whether she tries to bring back the triple axel for the Olympic season and whether she can
do so without letting the performance side slip.
 
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As @Mathman points out, the reason for dividing competition by age is not so much about seniors doing harder elements, but about the social/emotional effects of children competing against adults.
See, I would claim just the opposite. They raised the age for seniors due to the social/emotional effects of the adults having to compete against children and getting trounced. Not only do adults have to deal with slower rotational speed, but their flexibility also takes a dip and their spins are sometimes bare bones and unexciting.
 
The world championships aren't even a second division as you allude to, it's actually a third or fourth division in a way. The best women are Russian seniors, then Russian juniors, World juniors, then World seniors.

I would say Russian juniors then Russian seniors then World juniors then World seniors.

If you look at the best performances from this past season from Russian juniors like Elena Kostyleva, Margarita Bazylyuk, Elizaveta Andreeva, and others – not to mention Russia novices like Victoria Streltsova – there's hardly anyone else who can do what they're doing. Adeliya Petrosyan and Mao Shimada come the closest, but hardly anyone else beyond them.

In any case, I agree with your main point: The athletes we're putting on a pedestal to represent our sport to the world, e.g. at the Olympics, are in fact the weakest division of athletes in the sport. I find that very troubling.
 
See, I would claim just the opposite. They raised the age for seniors due to the social/emotional effects of the adults having to compete against children and getting trounced.
Emotional effects on those poor adults so sad at getting trounced?

Or emotional effects on teenagers having meltdowns when finishing second?

Or emotional effects on audiences, and therefore advertisers?

Of course, some fans are most interested in watching little girls with big jumps and fast spins, with less interest in the skating skills and performance qualities. And those fans may dominate many online discussions on social media.

Other fans and casual viewers, especially the once-every-4-years kind, may be more interested in performance qualities.

And wanting to see grown women in a "women's" event.

Which groups are sponsors looking to support figure skating most looking to attract? Or what kinds of viewers does the ISU want to attract, so they can then court advertisers who want to reach those viewers?

Judges, of course, are more interested in the edges than most fans are.


This has been an issue for many years, as the ISU tightened age rules in the early 1990s and again in the mid-90s, and had been discussing it and debating but not passing proposals about changing age limits, with arguments on more than one side, for much of the 2010s before finally reaching a consensus and raising the senior minimum age yet again. It didn't suddenly come out of nowhere.

If you're interested, I could find you some articles from the 1990s debating the effects of young teens dominating the women's event.
 
I think that the big watershed moment that brought into the open the perils of juniors competing with older athletes was the Tracey Wainman situation in the early 1980s. Wainman won the bronze medal at Canadian Nationals in 1980 at age 12. She was immediately rushed off to the 1980 (Senipr) World Championship ahead of the gold and silver medalists -- those old hags, who cares about them? This child is going to win the 1984 Olympics!

Two years later the 14 year old had some poor results and the Canadian federation cancelled her international assignments citing "poor work ethic." She bounced back in 1984 and defeated Elizabeth Manley at Canadian Nationals -- but when she did not win any other major events that year the Canadian Federation again cancelled her international assignments, this time for "undisciplined off-ice behavior."

Her undisciploned (or at least unsupervised) off-ice behavior actually had started back in 1980 when the 12 year old met Check stater Joe Sabpvcik.* (They later married -- then got divorced and she married another skater from that same 1980 world championship, Gregory Fiipowski.)

I remember the skating tours of the 1990s. Tom Collins was especially adamant that underage skaters on tour with adult professionals must be accompanied by a full-time chaperon, usual a mother or an older sister. Plus the skaters themselves were told to be on the lookout for potential problems. (Todd Edredge was one that kept a big-brotherly eye open.)

But that didn't stop 14-year-old Michelle Kwan from sneaking off with Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul to learn how to put on make-up, which was frowned upon by Michelle's parents.)
 
Alysa Liu is mentioned above as the poster child in this discussion. In her first (and only) season on the Junior Grand Prix at age 14 her SP jump layout was 3A+3T, 2A (required) and 3 Lo. She was not completely successful on every element every time out, but for instance in the Junior Grand Prix Final she placed first in the SP over 2nd place Usacheva (2A, 3Lo, 3F+3T) and 4th place Valieva (3Lo, 2A, 3Lz+3T).

Her standard jump layout in the LP featured two triple Axels and a quad utz, but in the final she over-reached, tried two triple Axels and two quad Lutzes, one in combination with a triple toe, got a flub and three URs and Valieva overtook her despite starting out with a relatively unexciting 2A, 2A, 3Lo, 3F+2T.

Liu also got level 4s on all of her spins and mostly solid GOEs. Her PCSs were all in the 6s and 7s. Quite a difference from her 2025 world championship LP! I for one am holding my breath to see whether she tries to bring back the triple axel for the Olympic season and whether she can
do so without letting the performance side slip.
Time to grow up and leave those quads and triple axels behind! Be a woman! Not a girl. lol
 
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