Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[yfan1]

On the other hand, if by "like Ice Dance" you mean "all about skating skills and musical interpretation and not much else counts," then no.

I'd never say Ice Dance values "musical interpretation". Not as it stands anyway, or has done for several years now.

If the singles discipline is supposed to include a balanced program blending skating skills and artistry (to use a handy word to some up everything covered in the current Composition and Presentation components) AND jumps and spins and steps and turns and other skating moves, then there should be a good balance of all those things.

So what is your argument to increase the BV of the step sequence? I've already given why I think 1. limiting quads 2. cutting down a jumping pass 3. bringing back 5 components should be sufficient - thereby making a 6-5 split for jumps versus spins/step sequences.

I don't at all agree that "better" judgment of steps is necessary to make the skaters practice the fundamentals more. You're already going to get them have more energy for the rest of their skating if they went and did fewer jumps and quads. Quite a lot of the shoulder dropped, neck drooping posture happens because skaters want to save energy for their jumps.

But that doesn't mean that the difficulty and importance of the skating skills need to REGRESS in difficulty and importance to allow for the progress in other aspects of the discipline. There is room for progress in all areas.

I don't at all think the importance of skating skills has regressed. Step Sequence rules for singles are more complex than ever.

You seem to be suggesting simply that you wish the components were judged better, and that more scrutiny were given to the level calls on step sequences. Why not argue that?

If fundamental skating ability no longer counts, then it's not really the same sport any more.

It *is* counting, by the rule book.

What's the argument here precisely? Why do you believe increasing the base value will suddenly make it so that someone like Malinin won't already be getting the full level and high GOE despite how he skates?

 

[lariko]

I think that the men's LP at the Grand Prix Final put the exclamation point on the question of this thread.. Shun Sato and Daniel Grassi did everything humanly possible. They delivered satisfying programs and well-received performances. They were clean throughout with all positive GOEs.

Malinin did 7 quads and won by 40 points.

Mmgh, Sato and Grassl also lost to Kagiyama who only had 3 quads and doubled two of his triples. I am also not an expert on q/UR like everyone else, but those two botched landings suggest to me that chances are Kagiyama might have had rotaion problems too. Sato who had as many quads and more triples, lost to him by 10 points. Grassl, who also had 3 quads and all triples, lost to Kagiyama by 12 points. Fa who had 4 quads lost to Kagiyama by 44 points. What kind of a warped logic is that it's okay for Sato or Grassl to lose to Kagiyama but not okay to lose to Malinin? Personally, I see less reasons for them to lose to Kagiyama than to Malinin.

Why on Earth should we never again see a skate like Malinin's that has all quads presented in a sweet, sweet package? Literally this whole thread is 'Malinin jumps too good'.

 

[yfan1]

What kind of a warped logic is that it's okay for Sato or Grassl to lose to Kagiyama but not okay to lose to Malinin?

Like I said. Ice Dance.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

The first one ever done was rotated? A few others that season were too, the one in this LP looked fine to me as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by 90 versus 120. The rule is >90° on landing gets a <, greater than 180° gets <<

I watched it in slow motion and it was lacking 100+°. I watched all the next ones and it was the same. Now that I know that he's losing the rotation on his other Quadruple Jumps, I don't watch systematically anymore.
I meant that some seem to consider that if a jump is lacking less than 120° then it's a q rather than an <.

 

[yfan1]

I watched it in slow motion and it was lacking 100+°.

It is not possible to determine whether or not something was this minutely less rotated simply through youtube videos. Depending on the frame rate, a lot can vary.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

It is not possible to determine whether or not something was this minutely less rotated simply through youtube videos. Depending on the frame rate, a lot can vary.

I always did it by setting the slow motion to a 0.25 speed because I'm not very gifted on detailed observation, it was quite visible. Youtube now accepts videos of higher definition, with more pictures per second, than it used to do.

 

[lariko]

They showed Malinin's quads in slo mo in this one, so have fun watching the repeats.

 

[Mathman]

In Elements, the score is determined by the nature of an element, but also by its difficulty.
This is why a Lutz is a Lutz, but a Single Lutz is worth 0.6, a Double Lutz 2.1, a Triple Lutz 5.9, and a Quadruple Lutz 11.5;

That "difficulty thing is interesting, too. A triple Lutz is more difficult than a triple flip or a triple loop -- at least most skaters seem to think so. But a quad Lutz is easier than a quad flip or a quad loop. Everyone and his brother can do a quad Lutz these days, but quad flips and quad loops are still scarce. I wonder if this should be addressed in the scale of values (?)

 

[4everchan]

That "difficulty thing is interesting, too. A triple Lutz is more difficult than a triple flip or a triple loop -- at least most skaters seem to think so. But a quad Lutz is easier than a quad flip or a quad loop. Everyone and his brother can do a quad Lutz these days, but quad flips and quad loops are still scarce. I wonder if this should be addressed in the scale of values (?)

I am not very convinced that loops and flips are harder just because we don't see them as often as the lutz in their quad version.

It could be something as simple as a skater wanting to add a quad on top of the toe/sal and deciding, as it is hard work, and very difficult on the body, to go for the lutz as it is the most rewarding one with the least problems with rotation call issues due to the nature of the lutz counter-rotation. The loops are so often under-rotated, even in triples, that I can why skaters wouldn't bother working on it so much. Also, it could be very strenuous on the hip flexors. Why bother when the lutz will give you more points ?

I have the feeling that if the loop or the flip were given more BV than the lutz, skaters who choose to work on one fancy quad would do that.

 

[lariko]

That "difficulty thing is interesting, too. A triple Lutz is more difficult than a triple flip or a triple loop -- at least most skaters seem to think so. But a quad Lutz is easier than a quad flip or a quad loop. Everyone and his brother can do a quad Lutz these days, but quad flips and quad loops are still scarce. I wonder if this should be addressed in the scale of values (?)

Unless you are Russian. For some reason, 4Lo is common there. I wouldn't mind 4Lo getting higher BV to equalize it with 4Lz and 4F. Iirc it was suggested quite a few times. Why not, not sure, but maybe because triple Lo can potentially be on the end of the combo? Though tbh the causality may be that the higher the value of the jump, the more peeps want it.

 

[Mathman]

Did he do them? I feel really guilty a this stage not to have watched Men's Free yet. In the Short, all his jumps but the Triple Axel were underrotated....

I'm guilty, too, but just looking at the protocols and following along in the Watch Party threads, Ilia was terrible in the SP, got qs on two out of three jumping passes and big negative GOE, and was beaten by both Kagiyama and Sato -- and then he turned it around in the LP and was out-of-this-world amazing.

Why? That's sports. Sometimes you.re off your game, sometimes you're on.

As for expressing distrust of the fact that some of his triple Axel attempts have been short, and then again some haven't -- again, that's sports. Far from being suspicious. that is what we expect to happen. This time my basketball team was clicking om all cylinders ,scored 120 points and won, last game they were sluggish , only scored 70 points and lost. No need to blame the officials.

 

[yfan1]

But a quad Lutz is easier than a quad flip or a quad loop. Everyone and his brother can do a quad Lutz these days, but quad flips and quad loops are still scarce. I wonder if this should be addressed in the scale of values (?)

There's no evidence apart from the statistical one you've provided that a 4Lz is harder than 4F and 4Lo. And statistics are subject to stress.

A very simple reason 4Lz is more prevalent is its base value to begin - highest base value meant more would practice it.

Further, many skaters have rather flawed technique on the Lutz which they've gotten away with (same for Flip). If this were rectified, fewer skaters would train the 4Lz. In essence, we've had only a handful of skaters who've done the 4Lz - and it's about equal to the number of people who've done 4F and 4Lo.

 

[lariko]

I suggest you guys go and watch GPF? It was actually really good hour of figure skating with something for literally everyone, from eclectic to trad.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Regarding Loops, I have two candidates for the explanation of the rarity; the first is anatomical, some skaters can do them better than others, in comparison with other types of jumps; the second is in each skater's bases for skating and jumping, the quality of the coaching, probably in early learning? I mean, Daria Usacheva had her hip injury with Triple Loops? Neither Junhwan Cha (3Lz + 3Lo) nor Yuzuru Hanyu (4Lo, 3A + 3Lo) seem affected, and many others. Ilia Malinin doesn't seem to suffer from his 4Lo either...
Both explanations are compatible, I think, so it can be a mix.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

So, I have just set the speed at 0.25 in the slow down, and they filmed the 4A on two angles (in the second, it was more difficult because of a reflexion on the ice). The initial 4F didn't seem to lack a quarter; the 4A was underrotated as usual (but no more than usual); the 4Lz in the Combination was maybe a q but I'm not sure because of the angle, the 3F after was very probably underrotated but not only there's the angle, he also seems to change curve after the landing, the marks on the ice confirm it. The 4S really looks underrotated (bad angle too) and the 3A is even more difficult to determine?
It was a very impressive jump fest with a weaker Composition (in comparison with the Short Program), much better executed, his moves albeit impressive fit the music, with extremely little transitions to base any Components scoring upon.

 

[Mathman]

That's certainly true about loops and hip joints. Tara Lipinski did endless reps of her famous 3Lo-3Lo in practice, retired from competition at 15 and was out of skating at 20 due to hip problems. Michelle Kwan was so crippled up in her hips by the end of her career that she almost had to be carried onto the ice in her last public performance (Dec, 2005 -- she won anyway in a audience phone-in-the-vote judging format. )

 

[yfan1]

So, I have just set the speed at 0.25 in the slow down, and they filmed the 4A on two angles (in the second, it was more difficult because of a reflexion on the ice). The initial 4F didn't seem to lack a quarter; the 4A was underrotated as usual (but no more than usual); the 4Lz in the Combination was maybe a q but I'm not sure because of the angle, the 3F after was very probably underrotated but not only there's the angle, he also seems to change curve after the landing, the marks on the ice confirm it. The 4S really looks underrotated (bad angle too) and the 3A is even more difficult to determine?
It was a very impressive jump fest with a weaker Composition (in comparison with the Short Program), much better executed, his moves albeit impressive fit the music, with extremely little transitions to base any Components scoring upon.

4A and 4Lz (and that 3F) seemed fine.

Biggest questions to me were the 4T+3T and the 4S+3A. 4S did seem borderline on the video.

 

[lariko]

Why don't you also watch Kagiyama's two footed 3A too while at it.

 

[TallyT]

Lookee, the ISU themselves - or their PR people, who presumably got permission - just called someone 'the one and only GOAT' on their x account. And you can guess who I mean, it's me and came up as a repost on my rather narrow feed.

https://x.com/ISU_Figure/status/1997513363258237261

The day after their own current GPF. Now I am not saying any individual person needs to agree with them, I am not saying they aren't puffing up for PR purposes and clicks (because they so are, y'all and I still don't love them one little bit), what I am saying is that he's known for his balance of athletics and artistry and if the ISU are finally going to recognise, at least in public, that balance is a good thing....

Well, that might just be a good thing.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

4A and 4Lz (and that 3F) seemed fine.

Biggest questions to me were the 4T+3T and the 4S+3A. 4S did seem borderline on the video.

The rotation in the air starts when the blade (usually the point) touches the ice, not when it starts reclining or when the body weight is fully on the ice. There's a "tilt". Ilia Malinin when his toe touches the ice, has a fast rotation of the foot towards a direction closer to the full rotation. I'm completely ignorant of Biomechanics but I have the impression that it must be safer for the body, and bring more stable landing, in comparison with more rotation after the body weight arrives on the blade/ice.
The 4S was shown in slow motion but from an unfavourable angle, I wouldn't assert that it was q or <, I don't know. The 4T + 3T weren't shown in slow motion and I didn't try to watch on the normal speed video with the setting on 0.25.