Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

[gsk8]

Should the number quads per program be limited to balance artistry? No reason to "out" any skaters in particular, but I feel so much emphasis is being put on the TES for all skaters when artistry should also be a major part of the package.

Also, where do you stand?

 

[noskates]

I completely agree that a program should be judged on a balance. Quads are exciting and it takes a lot of athletic ability to land them but it's almost more difficult and challenging and takes evolved skating skills to (1) skate to the music; and (2) show some grace and smoothness between those jumps. I feel that many of the men's programs this year are skated to discordant and wretched music that doesn't promote that balance.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

By no, I mean not more than in the rules.
When judges reward with high Components scores, programs full of Quadruple jumps which deserve low Component scores, it's completely unbalanced. If skates were scored after the rules, only skaters who can only jump (and rotate...) would go on with many Quadruple jumps in empty programs. Overall every team would strive to find the right balance between a rich program and a high Base Value in Elements; because the rules are "well balanced". Or so they look. Maybe judges could try to abide by them, so that we could see if programs become well-balanced? I haven't seen that much, particularly in the last two Olympic cycles.

 

[ladyjane]

I voted 'yes' but that doesn't mean I don't like watching them in a programme. I do (a 4 loop executed well is really sublime to watch). Balance is key, and I don't feel we are seeing this currently. In the nineties and early 2000's I started being more interested in the men, because of the quads. Only one or two in a programme then. Balanced on the whole. But now? It's become a jump contest instead of figure skating. I have no problems with jump contests, but start a seperate discipline then. I thought Peggy Fleming had the right idea during COVID to promote the more artistic side of skating. Some people will say: but it's a sport. Sure it is. But we're not demanding ball players to become faster and faster, higher and higher, are we?

 

[gsk8]

It's become a jump contest instead of figure skating.

Agree.

 

[lariko]

I don't see how the two are related at all and I am against limiting what's possible. Quads do not limit artistry whatsoever. Never did. Never will. Double jumps are not more artistic than quads. Spirals are not more artistic than quads. Choctaws are not more artistic than quads. No one move is more artistic than another.

Plenty skaters with low tech have no musicality and diversity matters.

If someone can deliver gorgeous jumps, they should. If someone can glide really well, they should. It will only end with figure skaters being even more limited in what they can be, making training boring to so many skaters who derive joy from it. Given the current sorry state of figure skating, I'd rather more characters and tastes found their way into it than just one specific category.

Why is that when someone is doing something exceptional the immediate response is to forbid it?

Since TES and PCS are supposed to be balanced around average tech, the lower average tech score should lower down the PCSs multipliers across all jumping disciplines. The skaters with higher tech don't even win any longer, they have Aymoz with gold and barely anything in tech, and people still complain, complain, complain, complain, and complain about quads. Like, leave the quads alone. Gosh.

Also, if you want more artistry, I have one solution that addresses every current woe in international figure skating: deepen the shallow pool by reintroducing a strong group of skaters currently out of competition. Won't fix everything, but will go a long way to make competitions more like they used to be.

 

[lariko]

And jumps are already limited to the wazoo by the Zayak's rule. Mistakes are punished severely. There is no ability to jump more than one sequence, even if it is a different one, or a sequence that consists of more than 3 jumps. Base value of 4A is pitiful. I mean, what MORE do you people want? Singles ice dance? As far as I know it's already there. So, go ahead and root for it. Show up in droves for singles ice dance competitions. Enjoy all the jump-less programs there.

 

[Mathman]

For me, it is hard to justify treating "quads" as a separate category in the "balanced program" rules. Yes, a program with 7 quads and nothing else, neglecting spins, steps, spirals, performance, program integrity and esthetic considerations would be bad. Bit so would a program that had 7 triple jumps and nothing else.

If the problem is that jumps are too heavily rewarded by the IJS compared to other factors, I think that this could be addressed without mentioning quads especially.

 

[jersey1302]

Not sure if there is a correct answer. I am voting no becuase I don't think we should limit technical ability, HOWEVER..the technical ability severely outweighs the quality of skating with in the IJS and I do think PCS should have a factor of up to double what it is now with strict guidelines on subjectivity. The pure quality of skating and enjoyment for spectators to watch is limited particularly with men. some of the most enjoyable programs that people watch are often people not on the podium. Not saying this for all events but you see it more and more now.

 

[surimi]

No, quads shouldn't be limited, but steps, and especially spins, should gain way more value (along with appropriately negative GoE for poorly done ones), GoE should stop being so dependent on whether a skater jumped a triple or a quad, and PCS should stop being so dependent on TES. Then we'd see more balance, I believe.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

For me, it is hard to justify treating "quads" as a separate category in the "balanced program" rules. Yes, a program with 7 quads and nothing else, neglecting spins, steps, spirals, performance, program integrity and esthetic considerations would be bad. Bit so would a program that had 7 triple jumps and nothing else.

If the problem is that jumps are too heavily rewarded by the IJS compared to other factors, I think that this could be addressed without mentioning quads especially.

Do you think that they are heavily rewarded by the IJS? I find that they're heavily rewarded against IJS in practical scoring, which is different.
For instance (it's a mix of skaters), let's take a 6-quad program with all Quadruple Jumps underrotated, meaningless arm flailing over two-footed flat-edged skating with ugly crossovers... IJS would say that jumps Base Value is 80% of the fully rotated jump, and given how they're jumped, a relatively low Grade of Execution would be right. In Components, 7 all around the board. We're under 250, while a program exceptionally skated with no Quadruple jump (but two "perfect" Triple Axels) following a no-quad Short Program would be slightly above. If, like a few, you manage to have, after a beautiful two-quads a nearly-as-beautiful program with two or three beautiful, rotated Quadruple Jumps replacing Triples, you're approaching or reaching 300.
The problem arises when the first (fictional) skater gets no call on his jumps and high Grades of Execution, and Components in the 9s. Then his jumps are two heavily rewarded, but not by IJS, by scoring habits contrary to IJS!

 

[lariko]

TESs and PCSs are already balanced around the average tech. If you balance PCS versus top 10% tech, you will egregiously over-reward far more skaters than you bring down from the top. GoEs and levels on steps are stricter than ever already on quads. Balance reigns supreme sinking plenty of high tech programs without sufficient glide and choreo stuff or with too many missed jumps. And, skaters who can't jump quads can't jump triples neither.

 

[TontoK]

Only if we also limit the number of triples. If getting rid of quads will balance artistry, then it stands to reason that going one step further will improve artistry even more.

 

[Arigato]

They did show up in droves . . . at the height of U.S. popularity, men jumped the least number of quads. So the argument of "more quads more people showing up" is actually backwards. It was Patrick Chan who mentioned the programs began to break down as you added quads.

There's several of us on this board who have suggested that programs will only improve when you significantly raise the BV on the elements that encourage the development of more skill. Give the StSq the same BV as a quad and watch the guys choke. Literally. Now why is that fair? I'll tell you why . . . a guy who can do quads and the most physically demanding step sequences I've ever seen ( and at the end of executing a long program when the guy is already running low on gas ) told it straight in an interview: "Quads are much easier than doing a step sequence. Many don't understand that." Well I understand it, just hook up a monitor to a skater and watch the heart rate elevate and record how long it remains elevated. Of course it's more physically demanding than just executing a quad. Numbers don't lie. People do.

I do dance choreo, my heart rate remains dramatically elevated for 3-4 minutes - the duration of the music. The more physically demanding the style of choreo and sustaining that level over time, the higher the heart rate and the higher the toll it takes on the body. A quad jump takes a mere fraction of the time to execute, and at a much lower heart rate. Reward more physical demand and skill - up the BV value on other elements and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[4everchan]

The issue with quads, for most skaters, is that they require a very lengthy set-up. I thought Patrick didn't mince words here when he said that after 2 quads, the programs started to sacrifice artistry. He removed his own third quad eventually.

I love jumps and I love them big. So, to me the quads are not the issue but the crossovers that are leading to them... It's very boring, especially when watching from the rink to see a skater just go from one end of the ice to the other, to jump.. and repeat 3 or 4 times in the first half of the program.

Some skaters may be able to include choreography in between quads. Some skaters may be able to jump quads with much less preparation than others... but in the end, the need to pack the first couple minutes with crossovers and big jumps has for me, destroyed a lot of the artistry.

We then have a second half packed with spins, choreo and steps.. but the first half is rather one-sided.

I would think cutting down one jumping pass is a good idea.

I would also cut down one leveled spin to make it a choreo spin. I probably would want more steps so I'd like a levelled step sequence but also a choreo step sequence. For me, if there is anything we can call artistry in figure skating is matching the music... and for that, there is a need for more focus on everything else but jumps and levelled elements.

 

[TontoK]

The issue with quads, for most skaters, is that they require a very lengthy set-up. I thought Patrick didn't mince words here when he said that after 2 quads, the programs started to sacrifice artistry. He removed his own third quad eventually.

OK, how about we get a little realistic. I respect Patrick Chan, but if could have delivered five quads, then that's what he would have done.

It is unsurprising that he thinks the optimum number of quads would be the number that he could perform. And we know he didn't remove that third quad to improve his artistry. He removed it because it was completely unreliable.

 

[Arigato]

Someone added a 5th quad and said he did not like what it did to his program. That was one Yuzuru Hanyu talking.

Edit: I just checked what I personally consider the best overall program I've seen a man execute, which is Yuzu's Seimei. How many quads? Four.

 

[lariko]

Quad is no different than a triple or double in terms of a skater needing to get to the right speed to jump it in a controlled fashion. Lots of skaters have long entries in 3As and other triples that they really want to land or that give them troubles. Why not eliminate 2A/3A as a required element then? Why force juniors to have both 2A/3A and one other triple as an obligatory jump?

Quad is not the enemy of artistry.

The enemy of artistry is a random factor involved into each jumping pass. There is never a guarantee that a jump succeeds. So many skaters set their sights on a clean, beautiful routine and lower technical base only to end up with mistakes anyway. In figure skating, there is never a guarantee. Artistry is independent of the technical content (all of it). And, it doesn't have to be a jump that takes a lot of efforts. Some skaters struggle with spins much more than they do with jumps.

Ice dancers who do not have any jumps also fall and struggle. On twizzles, on lifts, on steps. Mostly on twizzles. Should we take twizzles out to improve artistry? Because they say a twizzle is a dancer's quad. Plus, acrobatics. Like, seriously. Not artistic at all. It's acrobatics, not artobatics. Dancing should be all about glorious steps. Many, many circles of steps.

And, like, should we put a speed limit too? Going 25 clicks per hour places a high demand on the heart, and you can't expect an artist to make art when all they see is blackness and their heart goes 180 bpm.

In the end of the day, cutting quads will lead to one thing only: Cutting quads. It won't improve any artistry for anyone. People just invented this whole thing like they don't get it that figure skating is a pretend game. It's a delivery of a rehearsed routine to music, not a dance improv.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Quads are already limited. You can only jump one type per program. The base values have decreased. A jumping pass has been removed from eight to seven. Yet has artistry improved from before the rules changed in 2018 to now? The answer is no because limiting quads does not correlate with improving artistry. It’s long past time to stop pretending that quads are the reason for the terrible programs - the RDs this year are almost unwatchable - and call a spade a spade.

This is about sour grapes.

The guy with the quads can’t be beaten so the complaining starts to implement a handicap. “The only reason Usain won a race, and I mean the only reason, is because he was faster than everyone else! Hmph, he wouldn’t have won if he slowed down or had one hand tied behind his back! Let’s see him win then!”

 

[lariko]

Quads are already limited. You can only jump one type per program. The base values have decreased. A jumping pass has been removed from eight to seven. Yet has artistry improved from before the rules changed in 2018 to now? The answer is no because limiting quads does not correlate with improving artistry. It’s long past time to stop pretending that quads are the reason for the terrible programs - the RDs this year are almost unwatchable - and call a spade a spade.

This is about sour grapes.

The guy with the quads can’t be beaten so the complaining starts to implement a handicap. “The only reason Usain won a race, and I mean the only reason, is because he was faster than everyone else! Hmph, he wouldn’t have won if he slowed down or had one hand tied behind his back! Let’s see him win then!”

And Malinin will still win because of the simple fact that he is, at the moment, the guy who is able to tune up far more than any other guy. They asked for 4A, he delivered 4A. They asked him to fix spins, he fixed spins. They asked to deliver clean skates, he delivered clean skates. etc, etc, etc. A set of rules where Brown beats Malinin as they are currently is simply an unfair set of rules, where reputation/charisma beats merit. When charisma beats merit, bad things happen.

If not Malinin, it will be someone else who is simply better than everyone else at skating. There is always someone.