Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 31 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
I think best thing to do is simply to multiply the TES and PCS, and divide by the factor of PCS (so divide by 80, for women, 100 for men, so on).

Ripping it out of a thread I read here, with your participation in it. https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/multiplicative-pcs-scoring.86466/
I have mixed feelings about this. Yes, the multiplying thing might diminish controversies over technical difficulty VERSUS artistry/presentation as if they are mutually antagonistic opponents fighting for supremacy.

On the other hand, as. a cautious mathematician, I m nervous about, "hey. here are two numbers -- why not multiply them together and see what happens?" Multpliication means something, addition means something else. What is the justification for multiplying (or for adding) two numbers together just because we can?
 
On the other hand, as. a cautious mathematician, I m nervous about, "hey. here are two numbers -- why not multiply them together and see what happens?" Multpliication means something, addition means something else. What is the justification for multiplying (or for adding) two numbers together just because we can?
As you said in the other thread, there's no a priori reason for any of it. But there seems to be a good utilitarian one nonetheless.
 
Search youtube for Snowplow Sam competition and Basic 1 skating competition for examples of the lowest levels.
Here's one :) :
:rock:
And for the tiny tots, should the level of cuteness factor in?
Reason #2539 why I am not a figure skating judge. I would automatically give 10s to every skater. :)
 
As you said in the other thread, there's no a priori reason for any of it. But there seems to be a good utilitarian one nonetheless.
Very well said. Where the mathematics/statistics comes in is afterward, when we try to assess whether our revisions have moved the sport in the right direction or not. (First. though, we have to reflect on what "right" means.)
 
What do you propose for "x"? I think that what is needed is a more aggressive, not a "slightly" logarithmic scale and that it would be better to call it exponential rather than logarithmic (depending on what "x" represents).
At the moment, I'm feeling that it's a Logarithm in a base over 1 but really under 2, x being as I wrote a mix of hard work, talent, good coaching, and choreography highlighting it. Of course what is scored practically is the skater's precision, speed, fluidity, variety in steps and their performance, ability to skate effortless difficult clusters (far from a given even at top level...), glide and abilities with speed, balance, I'm certainly forgetting some.
 
First of all, if each judge sets their own weightings, there would be a very wide range of weightings with no guarantee that you would consider each "reasonable." So I don't think this would make results any fairer.

Or any more transparent. Do you really expect skaters to look up the weightings of the judges on the panel at each event they enter to see whether this panel puts higher weight on variety of directions vs. speed, or vice versa? Assuming the individual judges' weightings would be published at all.

Why should judges set weightings for evaluations that they don't even make themselves? They don't determine what features should earn higher levels for non-jump elements, or determine whether those features were met or not. In 6.0 judging, judges took into consideration both the difficulty and the quality in spins and steps, but in IJS the difficulty determinations have been outsourced to a separate panel of humans who watch just for those features and make those determinations . . . without telling the judges what levels they awarded.

The judges (and even the tech panels) have no input into the base values of the different elements and levels or the values of the positive and negative GOEs. Or, for that matter, the factoring of the program components. All that is determined by the ISU and published in the Scale of Values and other documents.

If determinations of speed and other measurable factors are going to be outsourced to machines, why should the judges have input into how to weight them. Those determinations should be made by the same committees who come up with the Scale of Values.

Judges' job is to evaluate the skating that they see, not to design their own personal scoring system to be applied by computer measurements they have no control over.

What you're asking them to do is not judging.

Some of them might be interested in figuring out how to weight different measurable parts of skating that will be taken away from judges' assessment. Then let them join the relevant ISU committees or get the ear of people who are on those committees.
Or post in conversations like this one and hope someone at the ISU is reading.

For those who want to judge the judgeable parts of skating, let them do that.


This is a totally different question.

What we want is better guidelines on how to determine which performances deserve 6 or less for each component -- designed by experts who have seen many more programs deserving of 6 or less and who are awed by the outliers that deserve much higher.

How do we define "deserve"?

Maybe there could be clearer guidelines on how to separate the "gods" from the "kings" among the outliers, as @Mathman dubbed them. But they're not likely to "deserve" less than 6.


But you want judges to do it themselves, without years of study on the details of how this would work???

It's a different kind of expertise. If we do want weighting for each aspect of scoring that can be done by machines, let it be determined by experts in that kind of math and programming, who also have expertise in figure skating.

Not independently by many different figure skating experts most of whom have no background or interest in math or programming.


At what expense?

The ISU may be working on this and will try it out in test competitions within the next couple of years (i.e., alongside the current official human-centered panels) to see how it works, and then maybe adopt it for international competitions, at least the big ones.

What kind of equipment would be needed at the competition venue to implement automated system? What new officials would need to be trained to install and run it? How would judges and tech panels need to be retrained to stop worrying about the measured parts of scoring being given away to the machines and focus more on the remaining human-scored aspects?

How much would the equipment cost, and how much space would it need? On different sides of the ice? Can it be implemented in small local rinks, by federations or clubs with low budgets? Or would there be a two-tier level of competitions that use the shiny new machine stcoring system and those that can only accommodate the low-tech old-fashioned system. (I.e., the current IJS, which is already more expensive and more tech dependent than 6.0.)


The fun part can be figuring out how to distinguish meaningfully between skaters who are close in overall skill level but might be better at some things and weaker at others, within that low range. And when just to decide "They're all the same! Same score for everyone -- let the computers determine the winner."

But how many low-level competitions could actually afford to use a system that relies on computers and multiple cameras?


"Basic Novice" internationally is more or less equivalent to the US Juvenile level.
The US has three standard competition levels below juvenile: Pre-Juvenile (allowed double jumps up to lutz), Preliminary (allowed two doubles out of salchow, toe loop, and loop), and Pre-Preliminary (allowed axels but no doubles).

Then there are "Excel" versions of each of these levels (and higher levels) that have stricter limits on what jumps are allowed.

And there are learn-to-skate levels (Basic 1-6, and competition levels now called Aspire 1-4 that include free skating moves such as half-jumps and two-foot or basic one-foot spins in Aspire 1 up to single lutz and beginning combination spins in Aspire 4).

There are no official guidelines on what skill levels deserve which program component scores. On average, though, the Pre-Preliminary through Pre-Juvenile skaters will usually earn scores in the 1s and 2s, with a fewer higher outliers especially by Pre-Juvenile, and maybe lower for a skater having a bad day.

Skaters at the higher Aspire levels would probably also deserves 1s, though those levels have not yet been scored by IJS.

Scores in the 0s would be for the real beginners.


Different rules for different federations at these levels.


Probably, if "leisure group skating" includes actual lessons on technique, plus practice time. Not if it's just go to the ice once a week, do whatever you can however you want, have fun.

Again, there are no official guidelines. But I kind of expect 1.00 to indicate that the skater can do forward stroking with some power, forward and backward crossovers, all the different edges at least somewhat recognizably (back inside is more difficult), forward three turns and inside mohawks at least in the good direction. And basic spirals.


Yes, it takes hard work to develop top-notch skating skill. And also natural talent, and training on good technique.


Well, if they've got skating skills worthy of 5.00 or 6.00 or more, they've probably learned all the difficult one-foot turns, and choctaws, and can aim for higher levels in their step sequences. What they need to develop is more mastery and comfort with those skills, so they can execute them with clean edges and turns, and stronger power and flow, effortlessly, with more difficult combinations and direction changes, control over body positions and variations that challenge balance more, and ability to time it all to musical nuances. Yes, still lots to work on.
By "deserve" in fact I didn't mean the skater, I meant the skate, and what it showed of Skating Skills.

I saw in the 2023? ISU budget 250,000$ for this and no outcome... I believe that it would have been enough for the first tests (all included, prototypes and coding and coders' side of testing; but supposing that the ice rink would be provided for free and the Figure Skating side would be volunteer) for one type of jumps, then they would have had to add around 100,000€ for each of the five other types of jumps; about the same for Spins rotation and edge analysis (not the positions at the basic stage, nor probably at an intermediate stage, but detecting changes of position); the speed mapping would be very little.
Then after the initial testing, specifications would be available to order device and software and rinkside part of communication for the clubs/federations (less than 2,000$ each if 20,000 are ordered), then the sensors for each foot (the communication part being more expensive than what I thought, more so than the sensor part; and to have it adaptable to probably all types of skates, to be screwed between the boot and the blade before each scored skate) (if at least 50,000 are ordered, maybe a bit more) would cost less than 15$, for sturdy material made to stand ice, water, time (if well dried and stored between uses, but in Figure Skating it's a given) without being bothered by some obstacles... during well over 10,000 programs each.
I'm not selling anything, coding or device, I just happen to know someone used to buy devices and coding for their company.

Now I'm starting to see a bit better how the first stages of skating are organised in the US. So, your Pre-Preliminary is just above our Médaille Préliminaire. In France, as soon as they have all Single Jumps including the Axel (that is, after that Preliminary level), skaters compete with a Basic Novice program, scored in the IJS system. Age slices are balanced with which "filière" skaters compete in: National, Fédéral or Régional 1, 2 and 3. Each of these "filières" have their (slightly different) age slices, for instance in Fédéral skaters are allowed to stay later than in National, and in Régional they're allowed later than in Fédéral; and each filière has a type of program for competitions, for instance in Régional 3 there's never a Basic Novice program, even in Senior, so no double jump, no Axel. In Régional 2 it's Basic Novice all along, up to Senior; in Régional 1 they start Intermediate Novice program in Minime category (which is 10-13 year-old in Régional 1) then stay there, and so on. It's up to the choice of the coach, but even if a coach registers a skater in the National filière, the skater's participation to the Tournoi de France (which is a bit the French replica of the Challenger/ Grand Prix series) isn't granted, it depends mostly on the skater's French Ranking (which is the sum of the scores earned in the year's or previous year's competitions, with a weighting). Let alone participation in international competitions.
 
By "deserve" in fact I didn't mean the skater, I meant the skate, and what it showed of Skating Skills.

I saw in the 2023? ISU budget 250,000$ for this and no outcome... I believe that it would have been enough for the first tests (all included, prototypes and coding and coders' side of testing; but supposing that the ice rink would be provided for free and the Figure Skating side would be volunteer)
Get skaters of all levels to volunteer for the initial tests, when designing the system to see how well it works with elements that are performed clearly and not so clearly?

Then another test, maybe at Nebelhorn since that's where they have traditionally tested out scoring innovations, to test out how the computer scoring of those aspects should be integrated with the tech panel calls and judges' scores.

Then after the initial testing, specifications would be available to order device and software and rinkside part of communication for the clubs/federations (less than 2,000$ each if 20,000 are ordered),
The ISU or the large national federations could purchase these in large quantities? And then individual clubs could purchase them if they host competitions using this scoring regularly, or maybe rent them from the federation if they just host this type of competition once every other year?

This is just extra computers for receiving sensor signals and processing, not extra cameras?

then the sensors for each foot (the communication part being more expensive than what I thought, more so than the sensor part; and to have it adaptable to probably all types of skates, to be screwed between the boot and the blade before each scored skate) (if at least 50,000 are ordered, maybe a bit more) would cost less than 15$, for sturdy material made to stand ice, water, time (if well dried and stored between uses, but in Figure Skating it's a given) without being bothered by some obstacles... during well over 10,000 programs each.
Is this something all competitive skaters would have to buy and attached to their skates, probably permanently so they would be used to skating with them? And they'd move it to the new pair of skates when they start breaking in the new one?

Or is this something that would be used for competition only? Purchased or rented by the host clubs, stored someplace safe, and brought out for the competition, handed out to the skaters when they registered to attach to their skates at the competition and remove and return when they're done competing?

Depending what method they're attached by, I can see removable sensors being more of a problem for the skaters than something unobtrusive that they can set and forget for a year, just as much a part of the equipment of the blades or the laces.

Also more of a problem for the hosts, because some would inevitably get forgotten, lost, or broken rather than returned promptly in good condition.


Thanks for the information about the French competition structure. :)
 
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I'm sorry, I forgot to say that the laptop wouldn't be included, but most would suit.

I hadn't dreamed of Nebelhorn so early! Being true though, that it has to be fit to some high level skaters, and there are always some at Nebelhorn.

I had imagined sensors to be screwed at every competitive skate (or assessment as part of the coaching) for coding safety reasons but after all, this coding safety could be achieved from outside and the sensors being built inside the boots, then they would be cheaper, perhaps compensating the cost of the remote safety checking; and used more often; or screwed permanently; being that the main cause of wear in my idea would be screwing and unscrewing, while in the case of a built-in device it might become the use itself, I don't know how it would affect durability, also keeping it dry wouldn't be the same way but not necessarily more difficult... Organisers or teams would still have to have a spare one for each foot I suppose.
 
At the moment, I'm feeling that it's a Logarithm in a base over 1 but really under 2, x being as I wrote a mix of hard work, talent, good coaching, and choreography highlighting it.
Oh, OK. Thank you.

Diminishing returns. When you start out a little extra effort and commitment pays off fairly quickly, but when you've hit your peak it takes all the running you can do just to stay in the same place. :nod:

I had in mind a different question, namely, "what does a judge really mean when he gives an 8.75 on a Program Component. .

My suggestion was, the judge means that this performance was in the top .0023, but not in the top .0019 of alll skating performances.

If Yuzuru Hanyu gets 10.0 in Skating Skills, that means he's the best (in the judgment of this particular judge). If Nathan Chen gets 9.5, that means he is among the best. That sort of thing,
 
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Oh, OK. Thank you.

Diminishing returns. When you start out a little extra effort and commitment pays off fairly quickly, but when you've hit your peak it takes all the running you can do just to stay in the same place. :nod:

I had in mind a different question, namely, "what does a judge really mean when he gives an 8.75 on a Program Component. .

My suggestion was, the judge means that this performance was in the top .0023, but not in the top .0019 of alll skating performances.

If Yuzuru Hanyu gets 10.0 in Skating Skills, that means he's the best (in the judgment of this particular judge). If Nathan Chen gets 9.5, that means he is among the best. That sort of thing,
Well, the judge probably doesn't know exactly how many skaters there are in the world, hasn't seen all possible performances that might reach that level of excellence. They certainly couldn't calculate the percentages on the fly.

If they have criteria in their minds of all performances they have seen (from many eras and at many different skill levels) and benchmarks of what they consider worthy of a perfect 10.00 or how close to deserve 9.00 or 9.5 . . . and also mental benchmarks for 1.00, 2.00, 3.00...8.00 with room for 3 gradations in between, then they can look at a performance and say "That performance matches everything I expect from a 9.00 performance except..." and decide to award 8.75.

Maybe they have been judging at the ISU championship level for many years and have given several 8.75s every year. Maybe it's their first time judging at this level, or even judging at a national level, and this is the first time they were on the panel for a performance that was good enough to make them even consider a score as 9.00 or to actually award an 8.75.

They've probably watched elite skaters at that level often enough over the years. But even if they watch every skater at Worlds and every Grand Prix event and their own country's nationals, even if they watch some other international competitions every year, they won't have seen every potential 8.75 performance that has been skated that year or the previous year, so they won't know whether it is in the top .0023, but not in the top .0019 of alll skating performances. They haven't seen all skating performances.

They can only compare it to all the performances they HAVE seen and evaluate it based on quality, not on its numerical position in a set that they are unfamiliar with many members of.

Also, it's entirely possible that (very rarely -- we should be so lucky!) there will be great night of skating when all the contenders deliver perform amazingly. Maybe the first contender finishes and the judge thinks "That's the best performance I've ever seen. Everything was almost perfect. 9.75, 9.75, 9.5!"

And then the next contender comes out and the judge things "Wow! That was even better." Maybe it's time to give at least one 10.00.

And then the final skater manages to top the others!!! So now it's time for straight 10.00s?

Obviously all three are in a very tiny minority even of all championships-winning great performances of all time.
But there's no need to know exactly how tiny. Just, in this case, how close they were perfection, in that judge's mind.
 
Oh, OK. Thank you.

Diminishing returns. When you start out a little extra effort and commitment pays off fairly quickly, but when you've hit your peak it takes all the running you can do just to stay in the same place. :nod:

I had in mind a different question, namely, "what does a judge really mean when he gives an 8.75 on a Program Component. .

My suggestion was, the judge means that this performance was in the top .0023, but not in the top .0019 of alll skating performances.

If Yuzuru Hanyu gets 10.0 in Skating Skills, that means he's the best. If Nathan Chen gets 9.5, that means he is among the best. That sort of thing.
I had never though of it this way, really. I suppose that I don't have enough of a Statistician core (I mean, the researcher, not the practitioner; we in France have pretty jokes about the latter).
In my opinion, 10 may be either an inaccessible ideal, or what the best (in the category or in Men and Women, including or not past skaters) achieve, or the potentially inaccessible combination of the best actually achieved in each criterion or sub-criterion.
I believe that you're right to keep in the past, furthermore I don't know any skater who did what Yuzuru Hanyu did at the end of his competitive career, so let's imagine he'd get 10 (which he never got actually), and be the reference. Which percentage of what Yuzuru Hanyu showed, was shown by other skaters? We can imagine that for instance, should another skater have shown Skating Skills of 80% of Yuzuru Hanyu's, he would have deserved somewhere between 8 (too linear) and 9 (too steep of a Logarithmic base in my opinion). But who did that much, please? I feel that where the very best skaters use their feet like those of a great organist on the pedals, Yuzuru Hanyu uses his plants parts, heels parts and toes separately, like a great pianist uses his fingers, and it sees... Have you watched him, by the way?
Then, a solution would have been to say, well, nobody can be scored above 10 so Yuzuru Hanyu gets only 10s but we won't leave him alone screw the scale and push the best of other skaters under 8, and let's still have the best other above 9? This would have put the likes of Jason Brown (who both had proficiency and the use of it in his programs) at 9.5 for instance, and one could redo the maths a bit more hopefully for less proficient or less "loquacious" skaters (or both). Sort of, it would have been changing the Log base from 9.5 on?
By the way, we're only on Skating Skills. Skating Skills score is meant to reflect a skater's Skating Skills, not to amplify an uncalled scoring of their jumps. Do you really want to speak of skaters who were so very far from this in Skating Skills? (This, meaning, here, from Jason Brown used as a new reference.)
 
Very well said. Where the mathematics/statistics comes in is afterward, when we try to assess whether our revisions have moved the sport in the right direction or not. (First. though, we have to reflect on what "right" means.)
We are ultimately not talking about results that are most profoundly mathematical. We just need utility. It's why I argue to limit quads, increase time - or if you can't increase time, then knock jumps down to 6. It's not really about the most precise result, just to fix some things. If all that doesn't work, then go to this multiplicative score.

Logarithms and exponents are great to discuss on forums, but will make no sense to the ones to whom it needs to make the most sense - the skaters and their coaches.

We do still need to fix the judging somehow, but that's a topic for another thread.
 
If all that doesn't work, then go to this multiplicative score.
Yeah, you're right. But I can't help myself. :)

The reason why multiplication requires greater thought comes to the fore when we ask the question, what is it that we are trying to measure?

If we multiply 2 grams of mass times 3 centimeters per second squared of acceleration we get 6... whats? Well, we get 6 dynes, a unit of force -- a completely different creature from what we began with. Even when the units are the same, 2 meters times 3 meters is 6...? Six square meters. We have introduced a completely new concept, the concept or area.

When applied to something like points earned in a figure skating contest, it would be more satisfactory if one of the two factors is unit-free, just a number. 2 points times 1.2 equals 2.4 points. We started with points and ended up with points. :nod: This is how GOE works, for instance. If you get +2 GOE points, that means that the base value is multiplied by 1.2 (not by 1.2 points, not by 1.2 something elses, just the bare number 1.2).

Similarly under-rotation. "<" is shorthand for "multiply the jump base value by 0.8. A "q" is shorthand for "multiply the base value by some factor of each judges' choosing."

In the sport of diving, they do it right (although the terminology somewhat disguises this fact). Start with the degree of difficulty (corresponding to base value). Now multiply by the execution score. This is some number from 0 to 10, but what it really means is, for instance, if you get a 7 then in the final reckoning the dive is worth 70% of the full difficulty score. .(Um, then multiply everybody's score by ten for no apparent (mathematical) reason. ;) )

The ISU could easily do this, if they saw practical utility in the idea of using multiplication instead of addition to combine the TES with the PCS to produce a winner. All that would be required is a slight change in descriptive language: A component score of 7.25 means give the skaters credit for 72.5 per cent of his total TES points. The "deduction" of 27.5 per cent would represent the penalty for not weaving the elements together in an aesthetically pleasing fashion oner the whole program (compared with perfection).
Logarithms and exponents are great to discuss on forums, but will make no sense to the ones to whom it needs to make the most sense - the skaters and their coaches.
True, true. However, I think that terms like "logarithmic scale" and "exponential growth" are usually used just to mean, on the one hand, a scale that rises quickly at first, then increasingly flattens out versus one that starts out slowly, but soon gets going faster and faster. and faster. That is a straightforward and intuitive notion, and a useful one. :)
 
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Does anyone want to talk about what the judges actually do, and how they could do it better? Especially when judging qualitative aspects of PCS that will not be outsourced to technology in the foreseeable future?
 
Does anyone want to talk about what the judges actually do, and how they could do it better? Especially when judging qualitative aspects of PCS that will not be outsourced to technology in the foreseeable future?
I think that there is another way to interpret the question of the OP. My opinion is that, yes, we can get better measurements, we can have more judges' seminars about musical interpretation, we can pass a resolution that from now on judges cannot be crooks and political finaglers. We can raise or lower the number of quads allowed, we can raise or lower the PCS factors, we can lengthen or shorten the tine allotted to an LP. None of this, however, though it might result in better judging (but I doubt it) or better programs (but I doubt it) speaks to the question of the relation between technical difficulty of elements (quads in particular) and "artistry" extended throughout the whole program.

Maybe a new way of codifying this relationship could be a tack that promises a better wind. (?)
 
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Does anyone want to talk about what the judges actually do, and how they could do it better? Especially when judging qualitative aspects of PCS that will not be outsourced to technology in the foreseeable future?
Separate the judges who judge elements (GOE) from the judges who judge the overall performance (PCS). It allows for a degree of subjectivity but also humans aren't made to do all those things at once.
 
I am wondering... Are figure skating judges really the best equipped to judge choreography and performance? Do they really understand musical interpretation? I mean, wouldn't it make a difference if we have a judge who has an extensive musical or dance training compared to a figure skating judges who came more from a gymnastics or athletics background? Sometimes I am watching a performance and I can tell that the skater is actually not at all following the rhythm of the music, nor the musical phrase or dynamics... Yet, some give it big marks
;). I am posting this a bit tongue in cheek but truly, how do we expect figure skating judges to evaluate PCS properly other than skating skills. 😂
 
Separate the judges who judge elements (GOE) from the judges who judge the overall performance (PCS). It allows for a degree of subjectivity but also humans aren't made to do all those things at once.
If we're going to split the panels, the Skating Skills component should probably be grouped with the GOE judging -- both because it requires a much larger degree of skating knowledge, and because judging GOEs alone is not enough for judges to do.

I am wondering... Are figure skating judges really the best equipped to judge choreography and performance? Do they really understand musical interpretation? I mean, wouldn't it make a difference if we have a judge who has an extensive musical or dance training compared to a figure skating judges who came more from a gymnastics or athletics background? Sometimes I am watching a performance and I can tell that the skater is actually not at all following the rhythm of the music, nor the musical phrase or dynamics... Yet, some give it big marks
;). I am posting this a bit tongue in cheek but truly, how do we expect figure skating judges to evaluate PCS properly other than skating skills. 😂
That is a good question.

Some skating judges are very knowledgeable about music and choreography, from their day jobs (e.g., Joe Inman), or because they specifically studied music and dance for their own skating careers because that was something that interested them and they wanted to focus on as skaters, or because they have been avid fans of the arts just as much as any skating fans who are also performingarts fans but not performing artists themselves.
Others have no more knowledge of these art forms than any other random person.
I know there has been education in ISU seminars and videos for judges about what to look and listen for regarding these components, but that can never be as thorough as a lifelong immersion in the arts.

So how much more training in how to judge these components should judges receive? What would it look like?

Alternatively, should there be a separate appointment for "component judges" or "artistic judges" that one could apply for, without also getting appointed as a technical judge?

It could be perfectly possible for the same person to get both kinds of judging appointments and serve in both capacities, at separate events, but not at the same time. Just as some officials are both judges and technical controllers or specialists. Or some judge both ice dance and singles/pairs. They're separate appointments with separate expertise.
Other judges would only focus on either the technical or the artistic side.

Let the technical judges judge the Skating Skills.
Let the artistic judges judge the Presentation and Composition components. Or however these components might be renamed and redivided for a panel focused only on those components.

I do think these judges would need to be trained in how to judge the artistic aspects of figure skating specifically. And to commit to judging multiple events at all levels, not just elite competitions once a year.
I.e., not celebrity judges brought in for one event with only a half-hour briefing.

What would be a good curriculum for would-be artistic judges who haven't skated themselves or even watched it more than casually to learn about the constraints and possibilities that blades on ice offer to the range of artistic choices available to skaters?

Could anyone apply to train as an artistic skating judge? Or should there be a minimum level of artistic experience and/or skating experience they'd have to document before getting accepted into the training? Would they need to start by training through their own national federation and serve as artistic judges for all levels of competition within that federation?

Would it make sense for prospective artistic judges from the arts world and prospective artistic judges from the skating world to train as artistic judges together? That way they could share their different knowledge bases with each other rather than remaining siloed.

Existing judges who already have judging appointments might have those appointments converted to technical (GOEs + Skating Skills) appointments only, and they would need to requalify as artistic judges if they want to hold that appointment too.

This is probably a topic for a separate thread, but I am fascinated about how such training would work. And how having a corps of judges trained specifically in judging skating artistry, without requiring more technical skating knowledge than necessary to understand why some kinds of movement translate more easily to ice or are more valued on ice, could allow more detailed guidelines and rubrics for evaluating these qualities.
 
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What would be a good curriculum for would-be artistic judges who haven't skated themselves or even watched it more than casually to learn about the constraints and possibilities that blades on ice offer to the range of artistic choices available to skaters?
I think that this is the big question. If the prospective "artistic judge" comes from a ballet background would hat judge mark a skater down for, "Can you believe it? She had to use a hand assist to get her leg up into that standard position. Any child in my ballet class knows better than that."

Would a musician or music critic roll his eyes and say, "Those 7 quads didn't capture the spirit of Schubert. -7 deduction points."

The other thing is, what would we offer to entice an expert from another field to become a figure skating judge?
 
If we're going to split the panels, the Skating Skills component should probably be grouped with the GOE judging -- both because it requires a much larger degree of skating knowledge, and because judging GOEs alone is not enough for judges to do.
My idea was really to have 3 separate judges/panels to focus on different things:
- 1 for individual program elements (TP to call and judge to assign GOE)
- 1 for technical skating aspects of overall program (skating skills, transitions)
- 1 for performance aspects of overall program (expressiveness, quality of overall movement, projection, musical and/or story interpretation)

I think being assigned to only judge GOE would be better for the judges because they don't really have to think about the overall performance, and hopefully it makes the GOE assigned for each element more objective. If they also have to judge skating skills, it can impact their perspective on the elements themselves. Some skaters can have a higher level of skating skills overall but have a bad day and fumbled their step sequence. That has nothing to do with their actual skating skills level, and more about element execution. So I don't think it's necessary to have the GOE judge also judge skating skills.
 
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