What’s missing from modern figure skating? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What’s missing from modern figure skating?

ID needs to go back to having a RD that is actually about a specific rhythm, but apart from that I think the discipline is ok.

What singles and especially men's singles even at the top need is both variety and commitment to a programs as a unified piece of choreography. There are so many samey programs where maybe they throw in some kind of aerial move or cartwheel as a highlight or some uncomfortable spin position, but that's it, the rest is vaguely timed to the music, interchangeable noodling about.

There are not many programs where I actually admire the choreo as a thing of its own. Compare that to Winter or Daisuke's programs or Candeloro or some of Yuzu's and Shoma's output...Granted, it might have been even worse ten or so years ago, where quads were the only thing that seemed to matter at all.

I know Benoit isn't up everyone's alley, but I think Adam is one of the few currently active skaters who regularly has programs that feel like they're more than a collection of isolated moments and that are interesting from beginning to end.
 
DancingCactus said:
ID needs to go back to having a RD that is actually about a specific rhythm, but apart from that I think the discipline is ok.

What singles and especially men's singles even at the top need is both variety and commitment to a programs as a unified piece of choreography. There are so many samey programs where maybe they throw in some kind of aerial move or cartwheel as a highlight or some uncomfortable spin position, but that's it, the rest is vaguely timed to the music, interchangeable noodling about.

There are not many programs where I actually admire the choreo as a thing of its own. Compare that to Winter or Daisuke's programs or Candeloro or some of Yuzu's and Shoma's output...Granted, it might have been even worse ten or so years ago, where quads were the only thing that seemed to matter at all.

I know Benoit isn't up everyone's alley, but I think Adam is one of the few currently active skaters who regularly has programs that feel like they're more than a collection of isolated moments and that are interesting from beginning to end.
Click to expand...
I was thinking more on the legends on ice or legacy on ice based on true episodes.
 
Manufactured rivalries.

The press caring enough to quote skaters out of context to pit them against one another. The skaters either playing along to feed the media beast (while remaining friends), or, buying into the media bs until they actually develop a lifelong beef with one another.

Social media ruins everything. Now they all know each other and aren't as easily manipulated.

I'm just kidding of course. With the rabid online fandoms that develop nowadays, things would get ugly very quickly.
 
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I have no nostalgy for 6.0 era as I was a child then and I don't remember much, and then I stopped watching so there is not much to remember.
I miss Yuzuru Hanyu and Rika Kihira, Javier Fernandez and Alena Kostornaya, P/C and Zhenya Medvedeva who made me go back to watching skating again.
I miss beautiful and original programs which I will remember and go back to years from today.
I miss complexity, originality and musicality being rewarded by the judges and therefore encouraged on the ice.
I am tired with competitions being a showoff of the power of federations instead of the creative power of skaters themselves.
I do think what we miss, in men at least, is a scoring system that had two step sequences and 5 components, and big jumps not translating to high PCS by default.
 
Just thought I'd share another example of things we no longer see thanks to the IJS :

In pairs : the Code of points has nixed any purpose for the axel throw. Triple is not worth enough the risk... double is not worth enough compared to a throw triple salchow. Teams do not train it. Meagan Duhamel, when they were chasing the throw triple said they were starting from scratch because they had never done the double even.

The double axel throw was a thing of beauty when well executed. I thought we would see it in juniors when there is a throw requirement... but I cannot remember the last time I have seen one in competition.

So, of course, this is not the main-topic discussed here, but I thought I would share it. IJS has forced teams to learn ugly death spiral positions but now,some teams do them exquisitely so it's not all bad... but I miss my axel throw...

And for those who have read some of my posts from the past... I miss also this special element :
The axel twist.... nowadays, there is only one kind of twist used by everyone which has a lutz entry. If someone is faster than me, please share the video. There was a Russian pair doing it in the 90s if I am not mistaken.. Haven't seen it since then.

Found it...



So, rule changes are also erasing elements completely which is sad.
 
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4everchan said:
Just thought I'd share another example of things we no longer see thanks to the IJS :

In pairs : the Code of points has nixed any purpose for the axel throw. Triple is not worth enough the risk... double is not worth enough compared to a throw triple salchow. Teams do not train it. Meagan Duhamel, when they were chasing the throw triple said they were starting from scratch because they had never done the double even.

The double axel throw was a thing of beauty when well executed. I thought we would see it in juniors when there is a throw requirement... but I cannot remember the last time I have seen one in competition.

So, of course, this is not the main-topic discussed here, but I thought I would share it. IJS has forced teams to learn ugly death spiral positions but now,some teams do them exquisitely so it's not all bad... but I miss my axel throw...

And for those who have read some of my posts from the past... I miss also this special element :
The axel twist.... nowadays, there is only one kind of twist used by everyone which has a lutz entry. If someone is faster than me, please share the video. There was a Russian pair doing it in the 90s if I am not mistaken.. Haven't seen it since then.

Found it...



So, rule changes are also erasing elements completely which is sad.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that video! I actually hadn't noticed the throw axel wasn't done anymore in competition. My partner and I still do it for fun, although now we're emulating what Underhill and Martini did when they turned pro and made it a huge single open axel instead of a double, which is all my generation usually did, not triples. Not everyone tried the Th2A even then. It depended on the girl's attitude toward axels in general. I happen to like doing it best of all the jumps, but others put it at the bottom of their preference list. They learn a throw waltz first as a baby pair, and then quickly abandon that as they progress to learning the backwards-takeoff other jumps as throws.

Throw axels are quite a different kettle of fish from the other throws. The technique for both partners is unique to that one move. He can only use one hand to lift and push, for instance, instead of the usual two. Also he has to get out of her way before she even plants her left blade on the ice and takes off, to give her an open flight path, instead of the usual rotating in sync as she jumps. And if his throw is off and he impedes her or puts her axis off? She practises that one with heavy knee pads, because a botched throw A is going to end with her landing forward on her knees.

I assume if the points given weren't enough of an incentive, competitive pairs abandoned the throw because the considerable extra practice time wasn't worth it. The other throws share a common technique and it's just a matter of her learning the throw technique of the jump as opposed to how she does it as an individual jump. (It's common for a girl coming to pairs from singles to temporarily lose her jumping ability while she masters doing them as throws. So then they concentrate on the SBS jumps for awhile and her newly-learned throw version suffers. It's a seesaw process trying to learn to do both equally well, rather than a learning curve.)

Twist Axels? I've only seen them done. Never figured out how and never tried one. Valova and Vasiliev did them well, but the few I saw by lesser lights looked more as if somebody messed up but somehow they landed it still on their feet. Other pairs would be impressed by it, not so much the audience.
 
Diana Delafield said:
Thanks for posting that video! I actually hadn't noticed the throw axel wasn't done anymore in competition. My partner and I still do it for fun, although now we're emulating what Underhill and Martini did when they turned pro and made it a huge single open axel instead of a double, which is all my generation usually did, not triples. Not everyone tried the Th2A even then. It depended on the girl's attitude toward axels in general. I happen to like doing it best of all the jumps, but others put it at the bottom of their preference list. They learn a throw waltz first as a baby pair, and then quickly abandon that as they progress to learning the backwards-takeoff other jumps as throws.

Throw axels are quite a different kettle of fish from the other throws. The technique for both partners is unique to that one move. He can only use one hand to lift and push, for instance, instead of the usual two. Also he has to get out of her way before she even plants her left blade on the ice and takes off, to give her an open flight path, instead of the usual rotating in sync as she jumps. And if his throw is off and he impedes her or puts her axis off? She practises that one with heavy knee pads, because a botched throw A is going to end with her landing forward on her knees.

I assume if the points given weren't enough of an incentive, competitive pairs abandoned the throw because the considerable extra practice time wasn't worth it. The other throws share a common technique and it's just a matter of her learning the throw technique of the jump as opposed to how she does it as an individual jump. (It's common for a girl coming to pairs from singles to temporarily lose her jumping ability while she masters doing them as throws. So then they concentrate on the SBS jumps for awhile and her newly-learned throw version suffers. It's a seesaw process trying to learn to do both equally well, rather than a learning curve.)

Twist Axels? I've only seen them done. Never figured out how and never tried one. Valova and Vasiliev did them well, but the few I saw by lesser lights looked more as if somebody messed up but somehow they landed it still on their feet. Other pairs would be impressed by it, not so much the audience.
Click to expand...
thank you ! this was an interesting read. I now understand why we don't see the axel throw anymore... different technique so not worth it really anymore to practice it...

I am curious about the axel twist... apart Valova Vasiliev whose video I have posted up there, did we see it in other elite teams before (my time)

Are there moves like these that have gone completely out of fashion and are no longer used ?

I mean, we are losing the pair spin next year... will that be fore good ?
 
4everchan said:
thank you ! this was an interesting read. I now understand why we don't see the axel throw anymore... different technique so not worth it really anymore to practice it...

I am curious about the axel twist... apart Valova Vasiliev whose video I have posted up there, did we see it in other elite teams before (my time)
Click to expand...
Lloyd Eisler did it with at least one of his several partners, but I'm sorry I can't remember which one.
4everchan said:
Are there moves like these that have gone completely out of fashion and are no longer used ?
Click to expand...

Brasseur and Eisler's "Fly High, Say Bye" for one, copied by many other pairs, where both skate backwards and the man tosses her in split position over his head, and then turns and catches her on the way down.

Or the fish dive invented, I think, by Canadian world champions Dafoe and Bowden in the 1950s, like a reverse throw where both are doing back crosscuts and the woman turns as if to do an Axel and dives at him with him catching her by the waist and a leg, and then he sets her down upright on her feet. A favourite of Underhill and Martini in the 1980s.

Another that's been lost because no one holds long spirals is the one invented by the Protopopovs, where they do FO spirals together with her leading, reaching back with her hands on his arms. Gradually there's a release and she continues to glide away from him separately, like a bird taking flight. That's a clumsy description, but it's beautiful to watch and the release and his push, using only his biceps while she pushes against his arms with her hands, to speed her up and send her on ahead while both maintain the spiral position is so subtle it's impressive when well done.
4everchan said:
I mean, we are losing the pair spin next year... will that be fore good ?
Click to expand...
I'll admit I haven't read the changes in detail, but I'd hate to lose pairs spins to the dancers if that's what's happening? (My partner complains that he does all the work of keeping the momentum going in combination spins while I take a breather, but really I do my share of the work 😅.)
 
Diana Delafield said:
Thanks for posting that video! I actually hadn't noticed the throw axel wasn't done anymore in competition. My partner and I still do it for fun, although now we're emulating what Underhill and Martini did when they turned pro and made it a huge single open axel instead of a double, which is all my generation usually did, not triples. Not everyone tried the Th2A even then. It depended on the girl's attitude toward axels in general. I happen to like doing it best of all the jumps, but others put it at the bottom of their preference list. They learn a throw waltz first as a baby pair, and then quickly abandon that as they progress to learning the backwards-takeoff other jumps as throws.

Throw axels are quite a different kettle of fish from the other throws. The technique for both partners is unique to that one move. He can only use one hand to lift and push, for instance, instead of the usual two. Also he has to get out of her way before she even plants her left blade on the ice and takes off, to give her an open flight path, instead of the usual rotating in sync as she jumps. And if his throw is off and he impedes her or puts her axis off? She practises that one with heavy knee pads, because a botched throw A is going to end with her landing forward on her knees.

I assume if the points given weren't enough of an incentive, competitive pairs abandoned the throw because the considerable extra practice time wasn't worth it. The other throws share a common technique and it's just a matter of her learning the throw technique of the jump as opposed to how she does it as an individual jump. (It's common for a girl coming to pairs from singles to temporarily lose her jumping ability while she masters doing them as throws. So then they concentrate on the SBS jumps for awhile and her newly-learned throw version suffers. It's a seesaw process trying to learn to do both equally well, rather than a learning curve.)

Twist Axels? I've only seen them done. Never figured out how and never tried one. Valova and Vasiliev did them well, but the few I saw by lesser lights looked more as if somebody messed up but somehow they landed it still on their feet. Other pairs would be impressed by it, not so much the audience.
Click to expand...
I remember when Savchenko/Massot tried the throw 3A. They came to a complete stop before doing it, and it was ugly, whether it was "done" or not. It was the last element in their program, which left a bad impression with the viewer; kind of the opposite of the Chinese choreography of "do your problematic elements first so people will forget about them by the end of the program".
 
NanaPat said:
Maybe they will alternate the pair spin and SBS spin in alternate years? At one time they had to do both types of spin the the long program, then they cut it down to one spin per program, but kept both types.
Click to expand...
I'd certainly hope one or the other wasn't lost for pairs. Although I have to say for us and for many others the most difficult pairs element was keeping SBS spins synchronized. We're leaving them out of our show programs these days.
 
NanaPat said:
I remember when Savchenko/Massot tried the throw 3A. They came to a complete stop before doing it, and it was ugly, whether it was "done" or not. It was the last element in their program, which left a bad impression with the viewer; kind of the opposite of the Chinese choreography of "do your problematic elements first so people will forget about them by the end of the program".
Click to expand...
Reminded me of the first time a Chinese pair showed up at the world championships. 1980, I think? They were from Harbin where they could get Russian television broadcasts, and had taught themselves everything by watching TV. For every lift, they came to a complete stop and then did a basic lift, with him revolving very slowly on both feet in one spot. Then he'd put her down and they'd start stroking again.

I heard that other pairs and their coaches took the time at practice sessions to give them tips and basic lessons and sent them home inspired. My, how they improved!
 
4everchan said:
Just thought I'd share another example of things we no longer see thanks to the IJS :

In pairs : the Code of points has nixed any purpose for the axel throw. Triple is not worth enough the risk... double is not worth enough compared to a throw triple salchow. Teams do not train it. Meagan Duhamel, when they were chasing the throw triple said they were starting from scratch because they had never done the double even.

The double axel throw was a thing of beauty when well executed. I thought we would see it in juniors when there is a throw requirement... but I cannot remember the last time I have seen one in competition.

So, of course, this is not the main-topic discussed here, but I thought I would share it. IJS has forced teams to learn ugly death spiral positions but now,some teams do them exquisitely so it's not all bad... but I miss my axel throw...

And for those who have read some of my posts from the past... I miss also this special element :
The axel twist.... nowadays, there is only one kind of twist used by everyone which has a lutz entry. If someone is faster than me, please share the video. There was a Russian pair doing it in the 90s if I am not mistaken.. Haven't seen it since then.

Found it...



So, rule changes are also erasing elements completely which is sad.
Click to expand...

Wow, that was depressing. That happened in 1988. Interesting elements, skating REALLY close together. Unison. I can barely watch Pairs these days and that used to be my favorite discipline.
 
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