Shaidorov says he lost his salary after "speaking out"

[4everchan]

My point exactly. Why call them something that they are not?

Nobody is really calling them amateurs anymore. You brought this up. Some of us responded that it's been decades that this is no longer a requirement for participation. I mean the NHL millionaires competed this year.

It used to be a clear distinction between amateur and professional athletes. There isn't any more. Yet we still persist in using those terms even though they don't mean what they are supposed to. Which results in people who do not follow the sports in between Olympics being under the delusion that these are actually regular people doing their hobby. Not the elite athletes that they are.

In figure skating, it would make more sense to use the terms competitive skaters and show skaters. Then laypeople would know exactly what was being talked about.



The terms "Amateur" and "Professional" retain their true meaning in the Olympic "sport" that people from my wee country do very well in - boxing (how on Earth is thumping somebody classed as a sport?!)

You always hear about boxers waiting until they have competed at the Olympics before they turn professional and join the mainstream circuit.



No, the vast majority of elite athletes don't get funding. There is only a very small amount of money that governments are able to make available for sports, so they are very strict as to who gets a share of it. The result is that it is only the select few that the Fed / government expect to win medals internationally that get funding. (And if they don't win the medals they are expected to win, they lose their funding).

The rest have to pay their own way, either through having rich parents; or through getting a job; or through sponsorship deals; or through getting a scholarship (usually from a company, who then provide them with a job; or with the armed forces or security services, who expect them to do light duties during the off-season); or through coaching younger skaters to cover their own coaching costs. Or a combination of the above.

CaroLiza_fan

We are talking about Olympians. Pretty much all Olympians are funded by their fédérations. We are not talking about athletes who are not on their national teams and not Olympic prospects here.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

We are talking about Olympians. Pretty much all Olympians are funded by their fédérations. We are not talking about athletes who are not on their national teams and not Olympic prospects here.

"Pretty much all Olympians are funded by their fédérations"?! That is definitely not true.

It may be the case in Canada (I don't know how much money the government provides for sports over there), but it certainly isn't the case in the UK.

Every Olympics (Summer and Winter), there are loads of stories of British athletes that are have got there despite having had little or no funding. The government simply cannot afford to support things like culture, heritage and sport adequately. It has often been admitted that if it wasn't for the National Lottery, funding for these sectors would collapse completely. I'm not a fan of gambling, but it seems to be the only way that these things can get any money. Even if it is not anywhere near what is needed.

And Winter Sports barely get a look in. The amount of money that British Ice Skating gets is very small compared to sports that we have more success in. And that has to do Figure Skating and Speed Skating.

In short, there are many Olympians that are used to the situation that Shaidorov now finds himself in.

But it is still a disgrace what the Kazakh Fed have done to him.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

"Pretty much all Olympians are funded by their fédérations"?! That is definitely not true.

It may be the case in Canada (I don't know how much money the government provides for sports over there), but it certainly isn't the case in the UK.

Every Olympics (Summer and Winter), there are loads of stories of British athletes that are have got there despite having had little or no funding. The government simply cannot afford to support things like culture, heritage and sport adequately. It has often been admitted that if it wasn't for the National Lottery, funding for these sectors would collapse completely. I'm not a fan of gambling, but it seems to be the only way that these things can get any money. Even if it is not anywhere near what is needed.

And Winter Sports barely get a look in. The amount of money that British Ice Skating gets is very small compared to sports that we have more success in. And that has to do Figure Skating and Speed Skating.

In short, there are many Olympians that are used to the situation that Shaidorov now finds himself in.

But it is still a disgrace what the Kazakh Fed have done to him.

CaroLiza_fan

There are exceptions in Canada too.. which is why I wrote, pretty much all Olympians. Sometimes, sports with no hope of top 10 finishes are defunded... it does happen, from time to time, that athletes pay their own way.. but this is exactly what Coventry is talking about. No to prize money but better structural support for athletes. The nuance to be made is that the funding is often not enough so some athletes have to work or find ways to make money.

UK is a summer Olympics nation. I am pretty sure that your superb diver Tom Daley was funded and so were the track and field stars...

But no, they wouldn't fund Kirsten Spours (just an example here, I have no idea) because there is no chance of top 10 there.

Shaidorov was funded. He was not happy about the federation taking credit for the last five years when for some of these years, his family was involved and supporting him. He spoke about it. His federation is evil, they defunded him.

If I were to "insert bad word" at my boss, the one who pays my salary, I may also get fired.

I feel sorry for Misha but to me, it sounds like a very immature way to deal with the federation who is funding you for the next quad cycle. Of course, if it's true that they have asked him to sign a ridiculous contract, then fair enough. I have some doubts about details here.

Maybe the federation is not happy that Misha skipped worlds too. We don't know the entire story.

But here are my main points :

1) Amateur status and Olympics is done. It's been three decades and figure skating fans know about it, especially you should know about it, considering Torville and Dean, among others, were able to come back in 1994.

2) Do not throw shade at the ones who are funding you, unless you are okay without their money. It never works.

3) Yes, KAZ. Fed is well known to be evil. It's been years of bad conduct and perhaps the ISU should intervene.

4) Most elite athletes receive funding, especially those with Olympic hopes. Is it enough ? For some, yes.... for many it isn't. So, often, we hear about athletes needing money but that doesn't mean that their federation is not funding them.

5) Coventry is saying no to prize money (for top 3) but hopes for better support for all athletes. I agree with that massively.

 

[AlexBreeze]

I think, most people in post-Soviet countries don't even know that the Olympics are supposed to be amateur sports. Everyone refers to elite skaters as professional skaters and adult skaters are referred to as amateur skaters.

The problem is not they don't fund Misha (and other skaters!). I think many federations don't pay their skaters or pay them little. Some skaters do crowdfunding.

The problem is that Kazakhstan, like many post-Soviet countries, allocates money for the development of sports. A lot of money. And officials promise this money to athletes. But it always disappears somehow.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Yes, KAZ. Fed is well known to be evil. It's been years of bad conduct and perhaps the ISU should intervene.

The ISU didn't intervene even during conflict between Dzitsiuk & Pavlov and Ukranian Fed even though there were juniors involved.

And, I'm not trying to protect the ISU, but it's difficult to define the boundaries of when they should intervene and what they should do.

 

[4everchan]

The ISU didn't intervene even during conflict between Dzitsiuk & Pavlov and Ukranian Fed even though there were juniors involved.

And, I'm not trying to protect the ISU, but it's difficult to define the boundaries of when they should intervene and what they should do.

You are correct of course. The ISU cannot do anything. So there is a need for some organization to protect the athletes. It's not like CAS will do this either, in such cases.

 

[Mathman]

well... for the president of the IOC, I find this (her $350,000 salary) very reasonable.

Indeed. The commissioner of the National Basketball Association receives an annual salary of $10,000,000, plus very substantial bonuses if the individual teams make a lot of money.

The president of the IOC oversees an quadrennial budget of 7.6 billion $US, plus has the responsibility of negotiating treacherous political and public relations waters while holding myriad disparate interests at bay.

She does not receive this salary to pay for training as a swimmer or as a reward for winning swimming competitions but rather as CEO of a big-time enterprise.

 

[Mathman]

The terms "Amateur" and "Professional" retain their true meaning in the Olympic "sport" that people from my wee country do very well in - boxing (how on Earth is thumping somebody classed as a sport?!)

I think that that this example does indeed capture the original distinction between "amateur" and "professional" athletes in Olympic sporting circles.

Professional boxers meant brawlers who entertained blood-thirsty audiences by beating each other to a pulp in the back room of the local pub. Amateurs put on gentlemanly exhibitions of the manly art of self defense following Queensbury rules.

Boxing is the only sport that does not have a legitimate "sporting" goal. The "goal" is to hammer your opponent into unconsciousness with your fists. All other sports have an actual objective -- shoot the puck into the net, carry the ball across the goal line, send the arrow into the bullseye. (Granted, you might have to commit mayhem on your way to scoring a goal in hockey, or in preventing your opponent from scoring one on you -- but, hey, that's sports. )

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

The ISU didn't intervene even during conflict between Dzitsiuk & Pavlov and Ukranian Fed even though there were juniors involved.

And, I'm not trying to protect the ISU, but it's difficult to define the boundaries of when they should intervene and what they should do.

I agree, ISU is really the last resource "normally". Sports Federations tutelage is usually a Ministry of Sports responsibility? Sometimes it leads to politicking (in France, I have seen all types of situations: an innocent Judoka with poor immigrant background dragged in the mud so that a Minister can take over the Federation for her Party; refusal to act against manipulations to get paedocriminals elected in Figure Skating clubs so that they go on electing the same in spite of reports; refusal again to intervene in the Gymnastic Federation is spite of gross incompetency and harassment of their best Gymnasts who were forced to leave etc) but the Ministry is usually the authority?
Here one would expect the Minister to admit to have been misled and at the very least launch an investigation on who did such a proposal to Mishail Shaydorov, plus other "dysfunctions" he and others mentioned... At this stage, it's on him, not on ISU.
Maybe ISU could post a statement without naming the country, saying that disorders in a Federation are first to be dealt with by Governments? But I'm not expecting this from them.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Indeed. The commissioner of the National Basketball Association receives an annual salary of $10,000,000, plus very substantial bonuses if the individual teams make a lot of money.

The president of the IOC oversees an quadrennial budget of 7.6 billion $US, plus has the responsibility of negotiating treacherous political and public relations waters while holding myriad disparate interests at bay.

She does not receive this salary to pay for training as a swimmer or as a reward for winning swimming competitions but rather as CEO of a big-time enterprise.

I'm not saying that this salary is too high, I'm just saying that keeping it, if this person isn't readily employable elsewhere, may be a strong motivation to comply with the most vocal of fundraisers... Actually I'm speaking in general for that type of organisation.

As to boxing...

Pillow Fight Championship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Arigato]

well... for the president of the IOC, I find this very reasonable.

My post was intended as irony. Any former athlete who now makes 350k while simultaneously holding the position: "I don't believe in paying athletes" is indeed ironic. Since then, she has clarified her remarks but that was after I read her initial quote. While she did clarify, I don't think she's going to be able to unring that bell any time soon with athletes around the world. There's a significant number sounding off. Loudly. And I don't think they will forget easily.

 

[4everchan]

My post was intended as irony. Any former athlete who now makes 350k while simultaneously holding the position: "I don't believe in paying athletes" is indeed ironic. Since then, she has clarified her remarks but that was after I read her initial quote. While she did clarify, I don't think she's going to be able to unring that bell any time soon with athletes around the world. There's a significant number sounding off. Loudly. And I don't think they will forget easily.

Name one IOC president that was popular with athletes. I don't think it matters if athletes forget or don't

 

[CoyoteChris]

I don't know how it is in Kazahistan, but in the U.S. the laws regulating not-for-profit sports regulation bodies required them publicly to report the salaries of the highest-paid recipients.

Way back in the day, Michelle Kwan was the only U.S. skater whose "salary" met the threshold, so it was listed every year on the USFSA reports.

That is an interesting fact, Mathman. Thanks. I had a long time skating buddy, now passed on, who skated against and roomed with Frank Carroll. He was a good sourse for all things skating. He said there would be bonus payments,....for instance...when MK came to Spokane for SA 2002 after that Hughes girl whimped out...he said she got paid handsomely for her troubles. I have a good pic of my friend and Frank shaking hands. FC recognized him instantly....

 

[CoyoteChris]

So are we still operating as an amateur sport? Beats me. But I will offer what wiki says....
U.S. Figure Skating is the national governing body for the sport of figure skating in the United States. It is recognized as such by the United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee (USOPC) under the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act
The Amateur Sports Act of 1978, signed by President Jimmy Carter, gave official recognition to the United States Olympic Committee (now United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee) and provides for national governing bodies for each Olympic sport.The Act provides important legal protection for individual athletes
Prior to the adoption of the Act in 1978, the Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) represented the United States on international competition matters and regulated amateur sports generally. By default, it became the national arbiter of amateur standing – and thus eligibility – for U.S. entrants to the then supposedly "all-amateur" Olympic Games. Avery Brundage, who held similar declaratory power as IOC President from 1952 to 1972, had assumed the office after heading the AAU.

1998 revision​

The Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act is a United States law (codified at 36 U.S.C. Sec. 220501 et seq. of the United States Code) that charters and grants monopoly status to the United States Olympic Committee, and specifies requirements for its member national governing bodies for individual sports.

The current version of the Act was sponsored by Ted Stevens, then-Senator from Alaska, and adopted in 1998. It is an update to the previous Amateur Sports Act of 1978 that considers changes like the elimination of the amateurism requirement for participation in most international sports (the admission of professionals was caused by the extensive cheating of the Soviet Union that listed its best pros as soldiers and broke the Olympic rules),

1. Washburn, J. N. (21 July 1974). "Soviet Amateur Athlete: A Real Pro". The New York Times.
2. "Sports in Soviet Union Only for Elite: There Are Top Athletes, and then There Are Those Who Sunbathe and Watch Drawbridges Go up". Los Angeles Times. 22 July 1986.

 

[Alfa]

Good timing, Kazakhstan... Given that Kirsty Coventry, the current president of IOC, just came out saying "I don't believe in paying athletes"

Well most athletes probably disagree with her. Perhaps people working for IOC and all these international sports bodies also shouldn't be paid then. Or shut up.

 

[Skating91]

Aren't basketball players, hockey players, the LA Olympics will have NFL players, aren't many of them paid tens of millions per year for their sport?

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate.

If he is an Olympian, he shouldn't be getting a salary in the first place. Olympians are supposed to be amateur athletes, which is defined as somebody that does not get paid for doing their sport.

Of course, we all know that the definition of "amateur athlete" has been twisted beyond recognition over the past few decades so as to allow people that are actually full-time professional athletes to compete in the Olympics. Which, as I have made clear many times, is something that I strongly disagree with.

Now that I have got that off my chest, back to the matter at hand.

That is a total disgrace that the Kazakh Fed are with-holding money from Mikhail!

All because he complained about information that should have been confidential being circulated without context, and tried to correct it and explain that the money he was getting wasn't even covering his expenses.

We all know how expensive this sport is, and that even elite athletes need to receive funding to cover the cost of their coaching, choreography, ice time, equipment, costumes, etc. And we all know of skaters that have had to give up the sport because they cannot cover the costs. After all, not everybody is from a rich family, or can attract enough (or any) sponsors, or can find enough kids who pay for lessons.

But, we have heard other stories about the Kazakh Fed over the years. So, we can't be entirely surprised.

CaroLiza_fan

And elite sport will not be about talent but wealth. Athletes struggling financially should have the good sense have rich parents or spouses, right?

 

[Arigato]

I don't think it matters if athletes forget or don't

I think it does.

 

[4everchan]

And elite sport will not be about talent but wealth. Athletes struggling financially should have the good sense have rich parents or spouses, right?

Well... Elite sport is already very expensive. Even the most banal sport is. Figure skating is even worse than most sports. So yeah, athletes struggle financially, even those with familial support. However, it's not by giving prize money for those who win medals at the Olympics that sport as a whole will benefit.

What should be done for every kid who wants to learn how to skate to have access to skates, ice time and coaching ? I wasn't able to skate as a kid because it was too expensive. I swam... until I became better and it became even more expensive. So yeah, there is no escaping this. Unless you are born in a country with state funded sport, you cannot make it unless your parents are super wealthy. And of course, in those countries, you better be good, otherwise you cannot do sport... only the top talent will be taken care of.

So, elite sport is already about wealth in most cases.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Well... Elite sport is already very expensive. Even the most banal sport is. Figure skating is even worse than most sports. So yeah, athletes struggle financially, even those with familial support. However, it's not by giving prize money for those who win medals at the Olympics that sport as a whole will benefit.

What should be done for every kid who wants to learn how to skate to have access to skates, ice time and coaching ? I wasn't able to skate as a kid because it was too expensive. I swam... until I became better and it became even more expensive. So yeah, there is no escaping this. Unless you are born in a country with state funded sport, you cannot make it unless your parents are super wealthy. And of course, in those countries, you better be good, otherwise you cannot do sport... only the top talent will be taken care of.

So, elite sport is already about wealth in most cases.

I've read about the situation for Swimming in the US in the latest decades, I didn't know that it was as bad in Canada. In France, most Sports remain accessible to people who don't live far away, competitive level included, but those who want to really get through need more (more side-disciplines practice, Nutrition, Physiotherapy, equipment). It's nothing like what I've read of costs in USA though! Venues availability is granted by large municipalities or group of municipalities with building help from several administrative layers (for instance, the Grenoble rink is just on the border between Grenoble and its suburb Échirolles, where Kévin Aymoz was born, and administrated by a group of municipalities, Grenoble and around, which President has been a Chemistry Professor who switched Gold and Bronze Medals between Alyona Kostornaya and Mariah Bell at 2019 Internationaux de France, I'm rambling because it was such a cute moment when Alina Zagitova, Silver, noticed and both girls were so cheerful and I'm an old doting fan).
It's all in all inaccessible to really destitute people, who are in larger and larger numbers, and to most rural people.
Also, becoming a Sports Coach needs either to pay or to get an employer to subsidise the studies, and I understand that it's getting more and more difficult to find the second (and a person with little scholarly disposition who wants a full-time, year-round low-pay job needs several of these diplomas to have a chance to be recruited, for instance by a municipality as an Animator or low level Coach or Assistant Coach, because they'll need someone who can teach several Sports or activities).