Is GOAT a meaningful concept?

[DizzyFrenchie]

Unbiased people like... the ones on twitter? You could always look at the archives on here, however.


Please welcome me to your club, then.


what is 'overscoring world records'? Do you really believe there are no competitions between '2014 Olympic women' and "overscoring world records" and that I've never said anything about them? lol


Did you even bother watching this competition? I'm not just speaking about HIS performance. His performance existed among several other men, multiple of whom should have been placed ahead of him. Misha Ge should have won that competition.


Was he underscored for his camel spin here that travels on the entry, bobble when he achieves the position, drops the free leg significantly as he tries to catch his foot, and slows down by the end visibly?

Because from what I see he got a bunch of +3s and +4s along with the full level call for this attempt. https://youtu.be/usRntZb4404?si=V6CSBneEdfw_iHMH

World Records are made to be surpassed, and this one, if it was one (I'm not competent on this, but it may be one, since the introduction of the IJS of course) was certainly surpassed.
Which "ones on Twitter" do you mean? I mean, people who can score a Single Skate (pre-2018 being an added difficulty) and who feel able to watch this Skate and to score it?
Really you tempt me, Yfan, I think we'd rather stop this out of topic matter, if you want to argue on pretended instances of overscoring of Yuzuru Hanyu, I believe that you ought to open another thread where it wouldn't be out of topic. What you are doing currently is derailing this topic and leave me the "choice" between going on derailing to fix your errors, or being more clear.

 

[labgoat]

there is another goat in this forum @labgoat

loving the goofy fainting goat videos tributes.
I may have to use these from time to time when someone takes my breath away with their skating

 

[labgoat]

I prefer to have a stable of goats - no way do I want to choose between Tai & Randy, Barbara & Paul, Rodnina & Zaitsev, Gordeeva & Grinkov or Mishkutionok & Dmitriev, Kazakova & Dmitriev, Shen & Zhao, and all the others after. Bringing back the fun...

 

[yfan1]

Which "ones on Twitter" do you mean? I mean, people who can score a Single Skate (pre-2018 being an added difficulty) and who feel able to watch this Skate and to score it?

You could always go read the archives and watch the competition yourself. The archive especially contains people who, I'm sure, bothered to watch the competition before deciding someone was being 'biased'.

How useless is this conversation if you cannot bother to do so.

if you want to argue on pretended instances of overscoring of Yuzuru Hanyu, I believe that you ought to open another thread where it wouldn't be out of topic. What you are doing currently is derailing this topic and leave me the "choice" between going on derailing to fix your errors, or being more clear.

"Pretended instances"... I'm sure you're entirely unbiased. Are my "errors" similar to how he skids on his flying entry on that camel spin?

By all means, open a new thread and educate me. I look forward to it. And I'd say the one who derailed the topic is the one who yet again posted what the ISU social media handler said online in their latest attempt to farm social media engagement.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh, now that is embarrassing!

Hah, you’d think! But other than V/M my personal IJS GOATs (which of course changes from time to time) aren’t Canadian (some runners up, yeah).

Women:
Kim
(Alt: Asada, Kwan, Slutskaya, Kostner)

Men:
Chen
(Alts: Hanyu, Malinin, Chan, Takahashi)

Pairs:
Shen/Zhao
(Alts: Savchenko/Szolkowy-Massot, Sui/Han, Duhamel/Radford)

Dance:
Virtue/Moir
(Alts: Papadakis/Cizeron, White/Davis, Chock/Bates)

 

[Mathman]

I was leaning towards Nikolai Panin, but I respect your choice!

The coolest thing that I ever read about Nikolai Panin is that when he was a child his parents could afford only one pair of ice skates for him to share with his sister. She got th left boot and he got the right. That is how he became Olympic champion in the discipline of "special figures."

 

[Diana Delafield]

Hah, you’d think! But other than V/M my personal IJS GOATs aren’t Canadian (some runners up, yeah).

Women:
Kim
(Alt: Asada, Kwan, Slutskaya, Kostner)

Men:
Chen
(Alts: Hanyu, Malinin, Chan, Takahashi)

Pairs:
Shen/Zhao
(Alts: Savchenko/Szolkowy-Massot, Sui/Han, Duhamel/Radford)

Dance:
Virtue/Moir
(Alts: Papadakis/Cizeron, White/Davis, Chock/Bates)

I didn't think you'd include my partner and me . I wouldn't include us myself, if I were ever to make a list. I just chose that picture of us the last time I changed avatars because it fit the space nicely and I liked its look as a work of photographic art, with the angled lines of bodies and staircases crossing each other. My ego isn't THAT overinflated !

 

[Mathman]

Hmmm.

Greatest of IJS Skating.

Women: Yuna Kim/Mao Asada. Joint first because I think they are 'opposite' skaters, with Yuna having better toe jumps, Mao having better edge jumps. Yuna having more speed and deeper edges, but Mao having better edge control. Yuna having better technique jumps, but Mao attempting harder content. So on. Even in terms of musicality, I thought they were opposite, Yuna being more extroverted, and Mao being more introverted lol.

Men: Yuzuru Hanyu.

Pairs: Sui/Han (and it's not close)

Ice Dance: Virtue/Moir. I think they had wonderful power and control, and I simply liked the phase of Ice Dancing when they were at their peak better.

I think that even choosing the greatest of an era is fraught with opinionizing and is hard to pin down.

The best guy in the world -- well, good for him. But the second best guy is pretty good, too, and so is the third best guy. Ilia Malinin dominated his peers -- until he didn't.

A question that I find more intriguing is " which figure skater had the greatest impact on the sport?" IMHO Sonja Henie is hard to beat. She changed the sport from a man's sport to a woman's sport.

 

[Mathman]

I prefer to have a stable of goats -

OT. Is it too late to get in a nomination for the WTF awards? The USA soccer team "Where's Waldo" uniforms deserve an honorable mention.

 

[yfan1]

I think that even choosing the greatest of an era is fraught with opinionizing

I never said it isn't.

 

[Magill]

I think that even choosing the greatest of an era is fraught with opinionizing and is hard to pin down.

The best guy in the world -- well, good for him. The the second best guy is pretty good, too, and so is the third best guy. Ilia Malinin dominated his peers -- until he didn't.

A question that I find more intriguing is " which figure skater had the greatest impact on the sport?" IMHO Sonia Henie is hard to beat. She changed the sport from a man's sport to a woman's sport.

... until Yuzuru Hanyu came and made the men's discipline the most popular again

But we've had exactly the same conversation two years ago already

Post in thread 'The Greatest Of All Time'

Jun 25, 2024

? Are you saying that Michael disagrees with my opinion that Sonja Henie is the all-time influential figure skater?

For starters, Henie single-handedly tossed men's skaiting in the garbage can and replaced it by ladies' skating. I gues that makes her the Caitlin Clark of skating.

....until Yuzuru Hanyu came and made men's skating the most popular of FS disciplines again. I guess that makes him.... well, Yuzuru Hanyu

• Magill

• 
• 

 

[4everchan]

.....Until Alysa Liu came and made the women's discipline the most popular again

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

... until Yuzuru Hanyu came and made the men's discipline the most popular again

But we've had exactly the same conversation two years ago already

Post in thread 'The Greatest Of All Time'

Jun 25, 2024

? Are you saying that Michael disagrees with my opinion that Sonja Henie is the all-time influential figure skater?

For starters, Henie single-handedly tossed men's skaiting in the garbage can and replaced it by ladies' skating. I gues that makes her the Caitlin Clark of skating.

....until Yuzuru Hanyu came and made men's skating the most popular of FS disciplines again. I guess that makes him.... well, Yuzuru Hanyu

• Magill

• 
• 

Lol, oh for sure - because his fans *definitely* gave two flying sits about watching the rest of the men’s field and didn’t just show up to watch the flight he happened to skate in.

Credit and kudos as well for increasing the popularity of ice dance and pairs, given how many all-event passes were monopoliz– ahem… sold out because of him!

 

[Magill]

.....Until Alysa Liu came and made the women's discipline the most popular again

Actually, maybe, but it is just way too soon to call it yet. We need to wait at least a couple of seasons to see how it keeps and evolves.
Still, even if, it does not a change a thing about men being the most popular for the Yuzu era
If the next generations lose it, it is on them.

 

[yfan1]

Reminds me of how men were a side dish to women's skating during Yuna-Mao era, despite a superstar like Plushenko being around, and how Hanyu couldn't get the same pull even by 2016-17...

 

[Magill]

Reminds me of how men were a side dish to women's skating during Yuna-Mao era, despite a superstar like Plushenko being around, and how Hanyu couldn't get the same pull even by 2016-17...

Of course Yuna/Mao duo were great but men had been a side dish to everyone's skating for decades, the least popular of FS discipline, so it was hardly because of them.
Yuzuru turned the trend and stadiums started to fill specifically for men, making it the most popular discipline again both among the venue and TV viewers, after like... 80 years? One can argue about dates but in the end of the day Yuzu is widely believed to have had even bigger pull than the two women's superstars (and before you ask me for a source, link me yours ) though I'd rather not turn it into another completely unnecessary rivalry

 

[Anna K.]

I prefer to have a stable of goats - no way do I want to choose between Tai & Randy, Barbara & Paul, Rodnina & Zaitsev, Gordeeva & Grinkov or Mishkutionok & Dmitriev, Kazakova & Dmitriev, Shen & Zhao, and all the others after. Bringing back the fun...

It totally gives me a Junior Grand Prix vibe. It's herd time!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yuzuru turned the trend and stadiums started to fill specifically for HIM, making it the most revenue-generating discipline again both among the venue and TV viewers, after like... 80 years?

Fixed it.

Selling seats and YouTube isn’t the same as popularity of the DISCIPLINE.

Mao and Yu Na were popular skaters within their countries but their rivalry and performances did boost popularity of the discipline along with Russia surging in the women’s discipline. Hanyu drew interest in the discipline overall but that was mainly attributed to interest in watching him. It’s like saying Plushenko made the men’s discipline popular in Sochi - yeah, and when he pulled out people left empty seats instead of supporting/watching other skaters within the discipline.

 

[yfan1]

men had been a side dish to everyone's skating for decades, the least popular of FS discipline, so it was hardly because of them.

According to... you?

Okay.

One can argue about dates but in the end of the day Yuzu is widely believed to have had even bigger pull than the two women's superstars

According to... you?

I'm very happy for Hanyu that he can post shirtless pics as part of his modeling act, use his looks generally without much rabid criticism, pander to his audience using pooh bears, and have anime singers and songwriters give him certain opportunities as he builds his brand. He must feel a certain level of privilege to be able to do all that, while many women can't... wonder why that is. But good for him for growing his fanbase within a sport and outside of it in a world that's very misogynistic in general, by being a man. A wondrous achievement to anyone rational, I'm sure.

and before you ask me for a source, link me yours

Sure here:



You're not going to start disagreeing with Google Trends and one of your own, now, I hope? It is, after all, how quite a lot of these "discussions" go.

 

[Mathman]

... until Yuzuru Hanyu came and made the men's discipline the most popular again

Respectfully (and again something that has been discussed before), I do not believe that this is an accurate assessment. Yuzuru Hanyu the individual has a huge and enthusiastic fan base that continues to suport him in his post-competitive career. This is not the same as saying that the sport of figure skating has undergone a sea change,

Yes, demographics plays a role and my perspective is what I observe in the United States. Maybe it is different in other countries. But what I see, when I attend local club recitals and exhibitions, are ten little girls taking learn to skate lessons for every one little boy.