Confused about the new Waltz | Golden Skate

Confused about the new Waltz

lariko

lariko

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
I was watching junior test skates with 10 teams, and I didn’t recognize 7 or so of their programs as using anything even close to a waltz? They tried to explain that music can be anything as long as they do steps with the 1-2-3 pattern, but this sounds so weird? Is this going to be the same in seniors or will there actually be real waltzes? As someone who doesn't hear or understand music on any level, how they are going to call a waltz as a waltz? I am confused.
 
What I have heard so far is that skaters are using mostly music written in 6/8. I will try not to go too much into details of music theory but 6/8 is not a waltz. It is a measure made of 2 beats. Each beat, for the skating purposes, is divided into 3 beats. So they often have to add an artificial oum pa pa to make it sound like a waltz... But it still doesn't work because a true waltz as a very strong beat on the 1 of the 3/4. In a 3/4 measure, there are 3 beats of quarter notes. And, this is the waltz rhythm that we traditionally hear with the strong OUM on the first beat and the light Pa Pa on the second and three beats. In 6/8, there is a strong beat too on the first beat... but the second beat is light and there is no third beat so we get back to the first beat without reaching the necessary third beat of a true waltz. So when skaters use compound meter (6/8, or 12/8) our ears cannot really hear a true waltz because the OUM is missing on weak beats. I heard a team using 12/8 and 4/4 during their RD and it was shocking to me because those two time signatures are giving us 4 beats per measure which is so far away from anything waltz :)

Another detail, less technical maybe is that to get the right number of beats at the right speed for the rhythm dance requirements using a compound meter means that some of these songs are not meant to be heard in that way. Adding the OUM Pa Pa artificially slows down the perception of the rhythm but still not enough to have the great sweeping feeling of a true waltz.

This is a very simplified demo



Or a bit more advanced on the subdivision of beats.


So when she is beating that second pulse you can hear why it doesn't work.

Too bad she is not showing the waltz.
 
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So in brief, the 6/8 meters often used gives a real pulse of two beats per measure = not a waltz.
The choreographers use the subdivisions to create the illusion of a waltz= still not a waltz because the subdivisions are not real beats and you can still hear the compound meter effect = 2 beats per measure which is not giving the feeling of a waltz.

Who is to blame : the ISU Ice dance technical committee for allowing 6/8. They never wanted to have real waltz if they allowed that. It's not like they wouldn't know. I am pretty sure that the members of the technical committee KNOW about this. It's basic musical knowledge any dancer would have been exposed to.
 
lariko said:
I was watching junior test skates with 10 teams, and I didn’t recognize 7 or so of their programs as using anything even close to a waltz? They tried to explain that music can be anything as long as they do steps with the 1-2-3 pattern, but this sounds so weird? Is this going to be the same in seniors or will there actually be real waltzes? As someone who doesn't hear or understand music on any level, how they are going to call a waltz as a waltz? I am confused.
Click to expand...
The waltz is just pattern of steps. The music doesn't have to be a waltz.

And, as @4everchan said, it's 6/8 in the Communication but 6/8 is not a waltz.
1786023303209.png

IMO, this is worse than the previous four years. Back then, the teams not only had a common PSt, and there was also a common theme.
 
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yeah... I find it a bit baffling imagining what some of these waltzes will be like based on the rd program announcements but it's really because the ISU just required the correct bpm and either 3/4 or 6/8 time. and honestly, because of the "+ Rhythm" part of things, it does no favours to the types of programs we're seeing right now. I do think there is time for adjustments and don't count it out, but I would have preferred a waltz played straight for the 'theme' this season
 
4everchan said:
So in brief, the 6/8 meters often used gives a real pulse of two beats per measure = not a waltz.
The choreographers use the subdivisions to create the illusion of a waltz= still not a waltz because the subdivisions are not real beats and you can still hear the compound meter effect = 2 beats per measure which is not giving the feeling of a waltz.

Who is to blame : the ISU Ice dance technical committee for allowing 6/8. They never wanted to have real waltz if they allowed that. It's not like they wouldn't know. I am pretty sure that the members of the technical committee KNOW about this. It's basic musical knowledge any dancer would have been exposed to.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I feel less frustrated on reading your explanation, because I just assigned it to being the weird amusical one who can't even recognize a waltz. I don't like this decision by the ISU, because I feel mislead if not outright cheated, I guess? I will cheer the most on the teams who actually used waltzes this season. Because if it says a waltz, I want my gorram waltz.
 
The thing is, even though no teams will have a full true Waltz as the rules don't really allow for that, some teams at least made choices that respect the nature and grandeur of a Waltz, so it clearly can be done. That so many choreographers decided not to put in that effort is a tragedy.

Some examples:
Ikura Kushida / Koshiro Shimada (And the Waltz Goes On / Libertango) and Utana Yoshida / Masaya Morita (Danse Macabre / Carnival Chant Bateria):


Zhixuan Li / Quanshuo Ge (George Valentin / Waltz for Peppy / Peppy And George from "The Artist"):


Shanjie Yin / Shirui Yang (Toccata and Fugue in D minor, The Vampire Masquerade, The Curse of the Skylark):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

Yixuan Wang / Shiqi Guan (The Nutcracker):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
lariko said:
Thank you, I feel less frustrated on reading your explanation, because I just assigned it to being the weird amusical one who can't even recognize a waltz. I don't like this decision by the ISU, because I feel mislead if not outright cheated, I guess? I will cheer the most on the teams who actually used waltzes this season. Because if it says a waltz, I want my gorram waltz.
Click to expand...
I totally agree.
 
Jumping_Bean said:
The thing is, even though no teams will have a full true Waltz as the rules don't really allow for that, some teams at least made choices that respect the nature and grandeur of a Waltz, so it clearly can be done. That so many choreographers decided not to put in that effort is a tragedy.

Some examples:
Ikura Kushida / Koshiro Shimada (And the Waltz Goes On / Libertango) and Utana Yoshida / Masaya Morita (Danse Macabre / Carnival Chant Bateria):


Zhixuan Li / Quanshuo Ge (George Valentin / Waltz for Peppy / Peppy And George from "The Artist"):


Shanjie Yin / Shirui Yang (Toccata and Fugue in D minor, The Vampire Masquerade, The Curse of the Skylark):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

Yixuan Wang / Shiqi Guan (The Nutcracker):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
Click to expand...

and that's who I'm gonna be rooting for, as well as other teams who deliver waltzes. Like, we waited for 10 years for a season of waltzes. Let's cheer for waltzes!
 
lariko said:
I was watching junior test skates with 10 teams, and I didn’t recognize 7 or so of their programs as using anything even close to a waltz? They tried to explain that music can be anything as long as they do steps with the 1-2-3 pattern, but this sounds so weird? Is this going to be the same in seniors or will there actually be real waltzes? As someone who doesn't hear or understand music on any level, how they are going to call a waltz as a waltz? I am confused.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean... Maybe 2 could be a waltz.. but the rest ... for moments a thought I was mistaken and RD wasn't waltz ... and if the russians aren't doing true waltzs ( they were the ones we could count to do a classic thing)... I'm afraid of thinking about the rest...
I want waltz!!!
 
Artemisa said:
I know what you mean... Maybe 2 could be a waltz.. but the rest ... for moments a thought I was mistaken and RD wasn't waltz ... and if the russians aren't doing true waltzs ( they were the ones we could count to do a classic thing)... I'm afraid of thinking about the rest...
I want waltz!!!
Click to expand...
I wonder if it's the 'oh, everyone is going to do waltzes, we want to stand out' idea. If so, they picked wrong.
 
Jumping_Bean said:
The thing is, even though no teams will have a full true Waltz as the rules don't really allow for that, some teams at least made choices that respect the nature and grandeur of a Waltz, so it clearly can be done. That so many choreographers decided not to put in that effort is a tragedy.

Some examples:
Ikura Kushida / Koshiro Shimada (And the Waltz Goes On / Libertango) and Utana Yoshida / Masaya Morita (Danse Macabre / Carnival Chant Bateria):


Zhixuan Li / Quanshuo Ge (George Valentin / Waltz for Peppy / Peppy And George from "The Artist"):


Shanjie Yin / Shirui Yang (Toccata and Fugue in D minor, The Vampire Masquerade, The Curse of the Skylark):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

Yixuan Wang / Shiqi Guan (The Nutcracker):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
Click to expand...

I hope these teams are rewarded, but am expecting they wont.
 
lariko said:
Thank you, I feel less frustrated on reading your explanation, because I just assigned it to being the weird amusical one who can't even recognize a waltz. I don't like this decision by the ISU, because I feel mislead if not outright cheated, I guess? I will cheer the most on the teams who actually used waltzes this season. Because if it says a waltz, I want my gorram waltz.
Click to expand...
me too.. I will cheer harder for teams who do use at least a good chunk of a true waltz. they will be rare because if I am not mistaken, the ISU is expecting a second, contrasting section, which makes it even harder to go for a true waltz...
 
lariko said:
I wonder if it's the 'oh, everyone is going to do waltzes, we want to stand out' idea. If so, they picked wrong.
Click to expand...
Probably .... but even for that they need to be really good to pass a no waltz for a waltz (and they are juniors ... so the jury is expecting a waltz or similar to that).. the other explanation is that they can't dance a technical waltz .. so they run for other musics... so the pair that dances a good waltz have my support
 
4everchan said:
me too.. I will cheer harder for teams who do use at least a good chunk of a true waltz. they will be rare because if I am not mistaken, the ISU is expecting a second, contrasting section, which makes it even harder to go for a true waltz...
Click to expand...
I saw a couple of combos that at least had a hint of a thematical match at the test skates with a waltz. There are modern waltzes
 
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