Confused about the new Waltz

[NanaPat]

This is why it's called Yankee Polka. Because it was invented by Americans.
It doesn't refer to a style of polka so much as to a specific sequence of steps skated to polka rhythm and adopted by the ISU as a compulsory dance.

This is also why we have the Austrian Waltz, which was invented by an Austrian team, and the Finnstep, based on an OD by a Finnish team. Or, sort of, the Westminster Waltz which was first skated at the Westminster Ice Rink in London.

We also have the Maple Leaf March, for similar reasons.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, the Yankee Polka was invented by Judith Kay Schwomeyer & Jim Sladky (later they married, so then Sladky & Sladky). Americans.

Hence Yankee Polka.

 

[boysoprano]

I feel we need an "is a waltz or not a waltz" thread.

Another thing that is going to bug me all season is that as soon as the GW ends that couples will stop "waltzing" even if a waltz is still playing.

 

[lariko]

I feel we need an "is a waltz or not a waltz" thread.

Another thing that is going to bug me all season is that as soon as the GW ends that couples will stop "waltzing" even if a waltz is still playing.

Yes, we do, but the RD for each competition will work as well. Just an additional thing to react to this season, really. Like, I am really curious that @4everchan and me basically represent as far apart points on the musical hearing range, but so far in the same basket. So I want to know who hears waltz where.

 

[4everchan]

Yes, we do, but the RD for each competition will work as well. Just an additional thing to react to this season, really. Like, I am really curious that @4everchan and me basically represent as far apart points on the musical hearing range, but so far in the same basket. So I want to know who hears waltz where.

Maybe there should be a special award this year... a What the Fake Waltz award for the worst but worst ever impersonation of a waltz.
I could compile nominations and we could judge it together at the end of the year. I think @dorispulaski would be great as well as a judge There are other users on here who have already expressed big What the Fake Waltz deception.

 

[lariko]

Maybe there should be a special award this year... a What the Fake Waltz award for the worst but worst ever impersonation of a waltz.
I could compile nominations and we could judge it together at the end of the year. I think @dorispulaski would be great as well as a judge There are other users on here who have already expressed big What the Fake Waltz deception.

I'd go for Walt'z the Fake award name heh

 

[Artemisa]

I feel we need an "is a waltz or not a waltz" thread.

Another thing that is going to bug me all season is that as soon as the GW ends that couples will stop "waltzing" even if a waltz is still playing.

I agree ... We could run a poll using the videos of each couple as they compete... if the majority agrees it’s a waltz (and for the sake of the season, we’ll accept it as one, even if it isn't a "pure" waltz)... But if the majority says no, it gets criticized as a non-waltz for the rest of the season.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

What a ridiculous sport! The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Looks like it's going to be another fun-filled season for ice dance with judging all over the map, as there are NOT clear guidelines for what is expected and what the judges are supposed to be looking for and what the skaters are supposed to be doing in the RD. Everything from pop to classical to rock, with some real waltzes, some pretend waltzes, and no waltzes whatsoever.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Yes, the Yankee Polka was invented by Judith Kay Schwomeyer & Jim Sladky (later they married, so then Sladky & Sladky). Americans.

Hence Yankee Polka.

The team who shoulda won the 1970 World championships!

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

That's real ice dance! Boy, were they robbed in the scoring. And the crowd knew it. S/S received great applause for their amazing performance. They were so smooth, crisp, and precise. They should have had a perfect 6.0 in there technically, and a majority of 59s in both categories. The 5.7s were just wrong! The fix was in for the Russians, Pakhomova/ Gorshkov. Sadly, Gorshkov was not a strong partner, but they won anyway.

Here are S/S in 1968. Check out that opening move.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[FSFan1999]

What a ridiculous sport! The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Looks like it's going to be another fun-filled season for ice dance with judging all over the map, as there are NOT clear guidelines for what is expected and what the judges are supposed to be looking for and what the skaters are supposed to be doing in the RD. Everything from pop to classical to rock, with some real waltzes, some pretend waltzes, and no waltzes whatsoever.

That is what was expected and what judges are looking for. Very simply, they want the golden waltz steps and interpretation completed to a variety of music. To break it down:

3/4 and 6/8 allowed for GW section.
must include an additional dance style - and this dance style must represent the music (e.g. jive, polka, march, disco, whatever as long as it is clear)
CDE, Tw, clockwise circular step, lift.

Beyond that, teams are free to do what they want. There is no expectation. Obviously, it's better compositionally to have coherency in the music and not mash random things together (purely for the enjoyment aspect, which judges take into account) - but even that isn't required.

The marks, as always, will be given for quality of elements, skating and composition - adhering to the set rules that make everything plain.

Essentially, for me the rules are very understandable and there is more clarity than the rules debacle and communication of last season; it's just that many people on this thread disagree that these are good rules, and want the rules to be different (e.g. no 6/8 music, GW conforming to pattern, no CDE).

 

[4everchan]

Essentially, for me the rules are very understandable and there is more clarity than the rules debacle and communication of last season; it's just that many people on this thread disagree that these are good rules, and want the rules to be different (e.g. no 6/8 music, GW conforming to pattern, no CDE).

Of course, we disagree because we were told we would be getting waltz... what about telling us that we would be getting just the pattern steps and turns of GW on random music with a contrasting rhythm ? So a mix match of things that make no sense for us ? I wouldn't have been very excited about that... and I wouldn't have been disappointed. This is the issue : the ISU promised something some fans were longing for years and took it away with convoluted rules.

I understand you are very knowledgeable in ice dance and that for you, everything looks pretty clear, but for a fan with less knowledge, we lost all our reference points. In a judged sport where there have been a lot of incomprehensible results, the general pubiic and the dedicated fans who may not have expert knowledge in ice dance, count on those reference points. It's upsetting to me to watch something that makes absolutely no sense musically and is called waltz when it has very little to do with it. The only link with the waltz is a specialized link : the pattern for the ISU Golden Waltz which most people won't recognize or comprehend fully.

The ISU lost a very good opportunity to bridge the gap between most fans and the elite clique who can draw a Golden Waltz pattern on a piece of paper and analyze its precise steps and turns. It's a bit uncanny when all the ISU is after is exactly the opposite, trying to attract more and more fans. I sincerely doubt the RDs this year will achieve this.

 

[boysoprano]

Essentially, for me the rules are very understandable and there is more clarity than the rules debacle and communication of last season; it's just that many people on this thread disagree that these are good rules, and want the rules to be different (e.g. no 6/8 music, GW conforming to pattern, no CDE).

Yes essentially. I like consonance between choreographic stresses and musical stresses.

 

[gkelly]

The ISU lost a very good opportunity to bridge the gap between most fans and the elite clique who can draw a Golden Waltz pattern on a piece of paper and analyze its precise steps and turns. It's a bit uncanny when all the ISU is after is exactly the opposite, trying to attract more and more fans. I sincerely doubt the RDs this year will achieve this.

There are some fans who are relatively ignorant about the edges and turns required in the Golden Waltz or any other ISU pattern dance but very knowledgeable about waltz music and traditional ballroom/DanceSport waltzes.

For this group of fans, looking forward to a traditional waltz RD and how it would match expectations of traditional waltz music and ballroom dance styles could have been hopeful, and seeing that the requirements for this year's RD will not require strict adherence to musical or ballroom dance traditions feels like a disappointment. That's understandable.

But these waltz-knowledgeable fans are not the only fans the ISU is trying to attract.

Most fans or potential fans are neither expertly knowledgeable about skating technique nor expertly knowledgeable about music genres. They just want to be entertained.

This would include audiences for ballroom-based entertainment competitions such as Dancing With the Stars and similar shows.

The ISU knows that casual fans do not want to watch 20+ teams skating the same steps to the same few musical selections in the same style. That (along with IOC mandates to reduce the number of segments of Olympic ice dance competition) is one of the reasons for replacing the Compulsory Dance(s) + Original Dance with the Short Dance/now Rhythm Dance. The music rules have intentionally been relaxed compared to CDs and OSPs/ODs in order to allow for more variety across the competition, which is more appealing to casual audiences.

In comparison, musical purists would also be an elite clique regardless of technical skating knowledge.

 

[Mathman]

That is what was expected and what judges are looking for. Very simply, they want the golden waltz steps and interpretation completed to a variety of music. To break it down:

3/4 and 6/8 allowed for GW section.
must include an additional dance style - and this dance style must represent the music (e.g. jive, polka, march, disco, whatever as long as it is clear)
CDE, Tw, clockwise circular step, lift.

Beyond that, teams are free to do what they want....

I for one appreciate this point. This is a competitive sport. Sports have rules. As long as the rules are clear and applied equally to all teams, I've got no beef.

It would be cool to pair a stirring 6/8 march with a (moderately fast) 3/4 Golden Waltz as the two contrasting dance styles. A little something for everyone..

 

[4everchan]

There are some fans who are relatively ignorant about the edges and turns required in the Golden Waltz or any other ISU pattern dance but very knowledgeable about waltz music and traditional ballroom/DanceSport waltzes.

For this group of fans, looking forward to a traditional waltz RD and how it would match expectations of traditional waltz music and ballroom dance styles could have been hopeful, and seeing that the requirements for this year's RD will not require strict adherence to musical or ballroom dance traditions feels like a disappointment. That's understandable.

But these waltz-knowledgeable fans are not the only fans the ISU is trying to attract.

Most fans or potential fans are neither expertly knowledgeable about skating technique nor expertly knowledgeable about music genres. They just want to be entertained.

This would include audiences for ballroom-based entertainment competitions such as Dancing With the Stars and similar shows.

The ISU knows that casual fans do not want to watch 20+ teams skating the same steps to the same few musical selections in the same style. That (along with IOC mandates to reduce the number of segments of Olympic ice dance competition) is one of the reasons for replacing the Compulsory Dance(s) + Original Dance with the Short Dance/now Rhythm Dance. The music rules have intentionally been relaxed compared to CDs and OSPs/ODs in order to allow for more variety across the competition, which is more appealing to casual audiences.

In comparison, musical purists would also be an elite clique regardless of technical skating knowledge.

sure but have a taste of the bad medicine served to us this year... the mix and match of styles of dance makes rather incoherent programs and though some fans may not like to see same steps on similar music over and over, do not underestimate casual fans or people just seeking entertainment. People are picky nowadays and if the programs are subpar, they won't go for it...

So I am sorry to say so but I believe that the ISU has shot itself in the foot alienating the few fans they already have, and not providing the canvas for quality entertainment needed to attract new fans. Also, as you mentioned, the ballroom or classical dance fans will most likely not be convinced either which will reinforce the concept that ice dance cannot really be "dance"

To me, with the recent ISU orientations, ice dance is looking more and more and more like what the ISU didn't want it to look like decades ago... corny theatrics and gimmicks and incomprehensible results.

YMMV

 

[Mathman]

I guess I have become jaded over the years. I expect that both sides to this discussion will end up mildly disappointed no matter what the iSU does.

Although my heart is with the musicians and traditional dance purists, I do not think that pushing this view will result in any uptick in interest in ice dance among fans generally. Conversely I don't think that the ISU will attract any new fans who have been yearning for pseudowaltz-type programs to a quicker beat.

Frankly, I can't see the needle moving much at all. As always, people who like ice dance will enjoy the most entertaining performances.

 

[bramweld]

When the really good skating skills arrive, hopefully we'll see a waltz, but by design it's waltz-light. The more difficult and interesting part of the waltz pattern is left out, so we're basically seeing watered-down content. But I repeat, hopefully when the top 10 debut their programs, a better waltz feel will appear.

 

[gkelly]

When the really good skating skills arrive, hopefully we'll see a waltz, but by design it's waltz-light. The more difficult and interesting part of the waltz pattern is left out, so we're basically seeing watered-down content. But I repeat, hopefully when the top 10 debut their programs, a better waltz feel will appear.

Well, maybe the more difficult and intricate part of the Golden Waltz, which is a difficult, intricate dance to begin with. Compared with most other ISU waltz patterns (e.g., the Westminster), it's not watered down.

The top teams may include more difficult content in their other required elements, some in the waltz part of the music. For less skilled teams, the parts of the Golden Waltz being retained may be the hardest parts of their programs.

None of which really relates directly to how well they interpret the waltz concept. But a team who "gets" the waltz feel may shine in the rest of the waltz part of their program, e.g., the step sequence, even if they struggle a bit with the pattern dance. And a team doesn't get the waltz feeling might annoy fans and judges for not doing so even while nailing the technical demands.

 

[labgoat]

The problem that I have seen in the rhythm dance these last few seasons is that the skates are more suited to boom boom themes - discos, hip-hop and the like which thrive on emphatic sharp movement. What I have seen lacking in many of these teams is a sense of gliding in time to music, whether it be waltz, or foxtrot. I was excited to have a waltz chosen as I felt it would teach the skaters to glide and execute turns and holds on time to the music and give them a better vocabulary. I am so disappointed by MOST of what has debuted so far that I am thinking of skipping this phase of the event entirely. I feel like something important culturally is being lost and discarded. We are losing the essence of ice dancing - the gliding sensation, the use of deep edges to execute breathtaking turns and holds. Instead the dance breaks happen in place without any gliding necessary -- don't cross the lines, don't regress. Just shimmy and mug for the judges.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

That is what was expected and what judges are looking for. Very simply, they want the golden waltz steps and interpretation completed to a variety of music. To break it down:

3/4 and 6/8 allowed for GW section.
must include an additional dance style - and this dance style must represent the music (e.g. jive, polka, march, disco, whatever as long as it is clear)
CDE, Tw, clockwise circular step, lift.

Beyond that, teams are free to do what they want. There is no expectation. Obviously, it's better compositionally to have coherency in the music and not mash random things together (purely for the enjoyment aspect, which judges take into account) - but even that isn't required.

The marks, as always, will be given for quality of elements, skating and composition - adhering to the set rules that make everything plain.

Essentially, for me the rules are very understandable and there is more clarity than the rules debacle and communication of last season; it's just that many people on this thread disagree that these are good rules, and want the rules to be different (e.g. no 6/8 music, GW conforming to pattern, no CDE).

Okay. Still a mishmash mess. Especially with so many skaters now unused to doing pattern steps. My comments stand, but kudos to those who are so rules savvy that you wish to uphold how clear and fine and jim dandy everything is. The sport is a mess that will continue on being messy ad infinitum with fan enablers and skaters going along to get along.