Confused about the new Waltz

[4everchan]

Here is a recording of an ISU Golden Waltz track

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DBGNYIDEWCjI&ved=2ahUKEwjDlKGvkZmWAxWyKlkFHU5wGAMQo7QBegQIDxAE&usg=AOvVaw03T7q9ZtBnAFwDW-y-_NiA

This is a waltz in 3/4 with the 186 BPM, so a fast proper waltz. I wonder why they went away from that ?

 

[Mathman]

For example: Woe betide the poor team that got "Oh Susanna" when competing in the Yankee Polka!

Wikipedia says about "Oh Susanna,"

The song blends a variety of musical traditions. The opening line refers to a "banjo on the ()he singer's knee"), but the song takes its beat from the polka, which had just reached the U.S. from Europe.

But is it a "Yankee" polka? I guess that depends on the definition. Does Yankee mean "American" or does it mean the Union rather than the Confederacy?

 

[4everchan]

Wikipedia says about "Oh Susanna,"

[q]The song blends a variety of musical traditions. The opening line refers to a "banjo on the ()he singer's knee"), but the song takes its beat from the polka, which had just reached the U.S. from Europe.[/q]

But is it a "Yankee" polka? I guess that depends on the definition. Does Yankee mean "American" or does it mean the Union rather than the Confederacy?

Defining Characteristics

• • Polka (General):
    • A traditional social and folk partner dance originating in mid-19th-century Bohemia.
    • Features a quick, bouncing 2/4 rhythm.
    • Involves free-form rotating steps (hop-step-close-step) danced across a floor or ballroom.
    • Performed globally with various regional styles (Polish, Slovenian, German).
  • Yankee Polka:
    • A standardized compulsory/pattern ice dance.
    • Invented by ice choreographers James Sladky, Judy Schwomeyer, and Ron Ludington.
    • Skated to a strict tempo of 120 beats per minute (60 measures of 2 beats per minute).
    • Requires precise edges, tight unisons, short steps, and rapid rotations performed over a prescribed geometrical layout on ice rather than free-form social movement

 

[gkelly]

Defining Characteristics

• • Yankee Polka:
    • A standardized compulsory/pattern ice dance.
    • Invented by ice choreographers James Sladky, Judy Schwomeyer, and Ron Ludington.

This is why it's called Yankee Polka. Because it was invented by Americans.
It doesn't refer to a style of polka so much as to a specific sequence of steps skated to polka rhythm and adopted by the ISU as a compulsory dance.

This is also why we have the Austrian Waltz, which was invented by an Austrian team, and the Finnstep, based on an OD by a Finnish team. Or, sort of, the Westminster Waltz which was first skated at the Westminster Ice Rink in London.

 

[boysoprano]

But is it a "Yankee" polka? I guess that depends on the definition. Does Yankee mean "American" or does it mean the Union rather than the Confederacy?

lol i think it just means it was invented by the americans. see also maple leaf march for a set pattern that names it originators nationality. the westminster waltz was invented in westminster england. and the ravensberger was invented at the ravensberger club by germans. it would have been the people who invented it who would have got to name it.

 

[Mathman]

...I will give an example of a waltz in 3/4 which is considered a very fast waltz... I asked AI to give me an example that would be about 186 BPM of Minute Waltz by Chopin.

Now, here is the Mendelssohn's if you want to hear...

Actually, this piece is a barcarolle.

These examples are hard to evaluate because neither Chopin or Mendelssohn composed music specifically to be danced to. For the Chopin virtuoso piece especially, it is hard for me to picture any other dance thatn the jitterbug.

OT. Felix Mendelssohn's great-granddaughter Cecile von Mendelssohn-Bartholdy married Gillis Grafstrom, the three-time Olympic gold medalist in figure skating in the 1920s.

 

[4everchan]

These examples are hard to evaluate because neither Chopin or Mendelssohn composed music specifically to be danced to. For the Chopin virtuoso piece especially, it is hard for me to picture any other dance thatn the jitterbug.

OT. Felix Mendelssohn's great-granddaughter Cecile von Mendelssohn-Bartholdy married Gillis Grafstrom, the three-time Olympic gold medalist in figure skating in the 1920s.

do you really think that billie eilish composed music for ice dancing purposes ?

Also, though Chopin didn't compose specifically for the ballet, some of his pieces, including waltzes were orchestrated and included in Les Sylphides.

 

[4everchan]

This is why it's called Yankee Polka. Because it was invented by Americans.
It doesn't refer to a style of polka so much as to a specific sequence of steps skated to polka rhythm and adopted by the ISU as a compulsory dance.

This is also why we have the Austrian Waltz, which was invented by an Austrian team, and the Finnstep, based on an OD by a Finnish team. Or, sort of, the Westminster Waltz which was first skated at the Westminster Ice Rink in London.

and the Maple Leaf March, invented by Gilles and Poirier.

However, here is something to ponder on : the Yankee Polka is in 2/4. So is traditional polka. The Austrian Waltz pattern is in 3/4 (180 BPM) .

The finnstep is a reinterpretation of quickstep, which seems to be using a 2/4 meter instead of the 4/4. However, it's possible to make that work much better for the normal human ear (and the musically trained ear) than a fake waltz in compound meter.
You can put two bars of 2/4 back to back and sort of hear a bar of 4/4 (for dancing purposes especially) because these two are simple time meters whereas waltz and 6/8 are not belonging to the same family of meter. Simple time versus compound time.

In any case, I am very aware that all these dance patterns were created for ice dancing specifically. That's not my issue. My issue is that if a pattern like the golden waltz is created on a fast 3/4 waltz, getting it translated to something that will sound like a slow piece in 6/8 with beat subdivisions is just off. No wonder why it's confusing the hell out of me.

As a musician, I react to meter very intensely. 6/8 disguised as a walk makes me seasick

 

[boysoprano]

What the ISU is specifically requiring for this year's rhythm dances, per ISU Communication 2795:

And specifically for the pattern dance sections of the RD:


Here are some examples of the Westminster Waltz and Golden Waltz being skated as compulsory dances, with ISU approved music.

Westminster:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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Golden:
Here's the original OSP the compulsory was based on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BN7KU8bmQ

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www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Note that the official descriptions of those dances specify 3/4 time. The 2026-27 rhythm dance relaxes this by allowing 6/8 time signatures, but the music still needs to work with those specific sequences of steps, at that many beats per minute.

I think it's important to note that not all 3/4 music is automatically a waltz, too. it's specifically 3/4 with a stress on the first beat. there's a lot more you do with 3/4 than just create a waltz. in the same way that a march is not r n b, even though both are 4/4. style of playing and placement of stresses and swing and groove all determine rhythm as well.

There are certainly some musics in 3/4 I would stay well clear off for the waltz pattern.

 

[Artemisa]

I'm keeping my theory that most of the ice dance pairs that choose another kind of music for the waltz .. because they don't know how to waltz ... ... so we are finally going to see who has the technic and who doesn't.

 

[boysoprano]

I'm keeping my theory that most of the ice dance pairs that choose another kind of music for the waltz .. because they don't know how to waltz ... ... so we are finally going to see who has the technic and who doesn't.

I agree I think in general most people in ice dance at this point don't know what a waltz is, especially the younger teams. Then are going to be choosing music just because there is some sort triplettishness going on, regardless of stress and stress repetition frequency, and then on top of that they are going to be doing this crazy set pattern that quite frankly it beggars belief k/p created for an OSP, which is an expression of a rhythm they simply have not chosen because the rules allows that. and.....

well, good luck babes with that.

 

[gkelly]

The finnstep is a reinterpretation of quickstep, which seems to be using a 2/4 meter instead of the 4/4. However, it's possible to make that work much better for the normal human ear (and the musically trained ear) than a fake waltz in compound meter.

The Finnstep a specific pattern of steps to be skated to quickstep music, which according to the ISU description of the dance is in 2/4 time.

So is the pattern dance with the name of just Quickstep, which BTW was also invented at the Westminster Ice Rink the same year as the Westminster Waltz (1938), by a different team.

When used for the pattern part of the Rhythm Dance in 2019-2020 & 2020-2021, ice dance teams were indeed permitted to "reinterpret" it with use of music not traditionally considered quickstep music, although it had to meet the tempo requirements.
The one time it was used as a standalone compulsory dance, no "reinterpretations" were expected, just standard quickstep interpretation using the steps Rahkomo and Kokko had skated in their 1995 OD as standardized for the compulsory version of the dance.

The Skating Lesson on Instagram: "Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #icedance #icedancing #worldfigure #gpfigure #фигурноекатание"

65 likes, 0 comments - theskatinglesson on July 22, 2026: "Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #icedance #icedancing #worldfigure #gpfigure #фигурноекатание".

www.instagram.com

The Skating Lesson on Instagram: "Nathalie Pechalat and Fabian Bourzat's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #patinageartistique #worldfigure #gpfigure #icedance #icedancing"

102 likes, 0 comments - theskatinglesson on July 22, 2026: "Nathalie Pechalat and Fabian Bourzat's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #patinageartistique #worldfigure #gpfigure #icedance #icedancing".

www.instagram.com

 

[4everchan]

The Finnstep a specific pattern of steps to be skated to quickstep music, which according to the ISU description of the dance is in 2/4 time.

So is the pattern dance with the name of just Quickstep, which BTW was also invented at the Westminster Ice Rink the same year as the Westminster Waltz (1938), by a different team.

When used for the pattern part of the Rhythm Dance in 2019-2020 & 2020-2021, ice dance teams were indeed permitted to "reinterpret" it with use of music not traditionally considered quickstep music, although it had to meet the tempo requirements.
The one time it was used as a standalone compulsory dance, no "reinterpretations" were expected, just standard quickstep interpretation using the steps Rahkomo and Kokko had skated in their 1995 OD as standardized for the compulsory version of the dance.

The Skating Lesson on Instagram: "Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #icedance #icedancing #worldfigure #gpfigure #фигурноекатание"

65 likes, 0 comments - theskatinglesson on July 22, 2026: "Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #icedance #icedancing #worldfigure #gpfigure #фигурноекатание".

www.instagram.com

The Skating Lesson on Instagram: "Nathalie Pechalat and Fabian Bourzat's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #patinageartistique #worldfigure #gpfigure #icedance #icedancing"

102 likes, 0 comments - theskatinglesson on July 22, 2026: "Nathalie Pechalat and Fabian Bourzat's Finnstep at the 2009 European Figure Skating Championships. #patinageartistique #worldfigure #gpfigure #icedance #icedancing".

www.instagram.com

so the ice dance quickstep ISU version is a reinterpretation in 2/4 of traditional quickstep which is in 4/4

 

[Mathman]

I agree I think in general most people in ice dance at this point don't know what a waltz is...

I do not wholly endorse that judgment. I believe that the majority of professional ice dance coaches and choreographers have some knowledge of their field of expertise, just as musicians (and mathematicians ) do.

Overall, I think that I am willing to wait and see what they come up with, especially in juniors.

 

[boysoprano]

quickstep is more about the syncopated half beats. so stresses on the "ands". one AND two AND the AND four AND.

 

[4everchan]

I do not wholly endorse that judgment. I believe that the majority of professional ice dance coaches and choreographers have some knowledge of their field of expertise, just as musicians (and mathematicians ) do.

Overall, I think that I am willing to wait and see what they come up with, especially in juniors.

I have watched many junior teams so far... not a waltz.

 

[Artemisa]

I do not wholly endorse that judgment. I believe that the majority of professional ice dance coaches and choreographers have some knowledge of their field of expertise, just as musicians (and mathematicians ) do.

Overall, I think that I am willing to wait and see what they come up with, especially in juniors.

Yes , they do ... but if the pair cannot execute the pattern of the waltz in a waltz ... what it's the best thing a coach can do ? ... they will try to escape from them..