And if Stephane Lambiel came back?

[Mathman]

I wouldn't call Yag's straightline genius...

That eye of the beholder thing again. I liked it as much as a Dorothy Hamill scratch spin (also level 1 by CoP standards).

 

[Tonichelle]

well saying it's genius gives Morosov way too much credit, for one

I don't know when they whole cast of SOI can do the footwork as well if not better than he can... it kinda loses the magic.

 

[Mathman]

^ Well, sure, SOI. They're pros.

 

[Tonichelle]

not according to some on GS, they're has beens

 

[Kinga]

re: ARTISTIC SKATING. It's also in the mind of the beholder and, of course, the Rusophiles. For me 'selling' the program is not art! As I said he (Plushenko) knows how to woo the judges with this simplistic of all show biz tricks.

And that's a pity that judges actually buy that. If audience likes it - ok. But judges should not be influenced by tricks, and sadly, they were and they still are (the example that comes to my mind when it comes to current skaters is Joubert. Fist pumping, macho posing etc, works for him, apparently)

 

[mycelticblessing]

^ Oh come on, give Joubert and Plushenko more credit. They were rewarded for their strong jumps. And Plushenko had solid spins and footwork. Of course, there are ''tricks'', but those only make up a small part of their skating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^ Well, sure, SOI. They're pros.

for me, no one does it better than kurt browning!!! and he did musical footwork long before the cop. Yagudin's footwork was theatrically effective for those fans who are new to figure skating.

One more reason for disagreeing with CoP. Who decided what was difficult or not? to give out those Levels? Let a consensus of skaters tell you what is difficult - not some official.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And Plushenko had solid spins and footwork.

Well, he did have that 'half-way down' sitspin which was credited as a true sit.

 

[Medusa]

Yagudin's footwork was theatrically effective for those fans who are new to figure skating.

^^Geez, can you even see us mere mortals from that high horse of yours?

One more reason for disagreeing with CoP. Who decided what was difficult or not? to give out those Levels? Let a consensus of skaters tell you what is difficult - not some official.

I think that is really one of the main problems of COP (next to the "PCS"). I found it very poignant what Nathalie Pechalat said about this

Half of the dance couples will do the same rotational lift for the same reason: it is rather simple, and it is validated as a level 4. This of course is detrimental to creativity.

It's actually quite funny: there is an element that according to the skaters is quite simple - but the powers that be think that the element is really hard to do and reward it with level 4. Like a bunch of schoolchildren who find out how to cheat in the math exam and the teacher thinks that they are all really blessed with high intelligence.

I think it's quite a dilemma. On the one hand the levels are there to reward a skater for every element, not just the jumps. Look at spins of some former Champions (e.g. Browning) - do we really want to go back to that? Joubert's and Plushenko's spins look fabulous compared to those. But then again it's such a shame that nobody does simple beautiful moves anymore, because they aren't rewarded. Or that creativity is not the way to go, because the move isn't classified in the rulebook.

Just get rid of the levels for good and only award GOEs? That way simple and beautiful could be just as worthy as difficult and ugly? Problem with that would be that it's very subjective. But then again, it's a subjective sport and COP only tries to conceal the fact that it is subjective. Hmm. Rant over.

 

[mycelticblessing]

Well, he did have that 'half-way down' sitspin which was credited as a true sit.

Look, he's no Lambiel, but there was nothing truly bad about his spins. No skater has it all. You can't find a skater with Plushenko's jumps, Lambiel's spins and Takahashi's footwork can you?

 

[seniorita]

why people compare plush with joubert?plush could not support the macho style even if he wanted to, neither joub's posture or style. Apart from quad i cant see anything similar between them.
And what is this always, that he was just a jumber, we speak like 4 revolutions or 4-3-3 was a piece of cake. Skaters have said also that straight footwork consumes the same amount of energy as a quad.
Moreover, Plushenko may not have Lambiels talent in spins and moves (who has?) and has a half way sit spin, some things you have to adapt in early age to have them and he was a 6.0 skater where spins were not so important, but did adapt to new system for the last couple of years, but even as a 6.0 skater, he had his own moves, up until 2002 he did the bielman spin and after that year it was a nice catch foot, he actually had a sit spin (decent even for the new system) maybe until 2003 before knees prob, he has very good and strong camel spin and high butterfly, amazing donut spin especially up until 2005 he was curling like a german pretzel, has a fast scratch spin, he was flexible, had height and between sounds like carmen and godfather he has also tried to skate to not the usual music choices of skaters and had choreography (maybe not Lori Nichol kind of one), when he had made the Story of Artist program, he ditched it because judges told mishin that too much was going on and they couldnt understand him, in my opinion it was better than Man in the Iron Mask which everything was too obvious, and better than his own carmen.
He could pass all his charisma (for people who believed he had one) even from tv and could hide his flaws, on top of his cosistency in quad and jumb combinations he had strong mentality which if we want to speak about competitions and not exhibitions matters a lot, it is different to watch a program and feel the skater's fear of falling.
So how many skaters have all -but all-skating elements in their pockets to be the all round skaters and plush be just a jumber, and what the judges actually did buy falsely for plush?
From all that people only remember and comment his Olympic Lp, for not having transitions, choreo, sit spin and grand emotions. On this night i wouldnt want to judge or remember stephan either. If i want to look back on their olympics i look their gala where grand emotions came back. Or skating to Bocceli.
I m sorry i cant say anything for joubert cause i havent followed him that much, but if judges buy anything and jumbers were to rule the medals, goebel and honda and more should have been multiple champions.
Mostly what i like about stephan and evgeni is that up until now i cant say they remind me of someone else.
Merci

 

[Buttercup]

I think that is really one of the main problems of COP (next to the "PCS"). I found it very poignant what Nathalie Pechalat said about this: Half of the dance couples will do the same rotational lift for the same reason: it is rather simple, and it is validated as a level 4. This of course is detrimental to creativity.

Nathalie and Fabian have been quite critical of the way levels are determined. They had to change some of their lifts earlier this season because they were not getting the levels, and went back to things they did in the past - I remember an interview in which they spoke about how disapointing it was to essentially be forced to regress in order to get the points. A real pity, because they seem to have some really great ideas that I'd be curious to see better developed.

It seems to me that more and more skaters are speaking out about the judging - not in the "CoP is bad" sense but pointing out what isn't working and trying to suggest ways in which it can be improved. I hope someone is paying attention, but I doubt it.

I think it's quite a dilemma. On the one hand the levels are there to reward a skater for every element, not just the jumps. Look at spins of some former Champions (e.g. Browning) - do we really want to go back to that? Joubert's and Plushenko's spins look fabulous compared to those. But then again it's such a shame that nobody does simple beautiful moves anymore, because they aren't rewarded. Or that creativity is not the way to go, because the move isn't classified in the rulebook. Just get rid of the levels for good and only award GOEs? That way simple and beautiful could be just as worthy as difficult and ugly? Problem with that would be that it's very subjective. But then again, it's a subjective sport and COP only tries to conceal the fact that it is subjective.

In the first few years of CoP, I remember the Eurosport broadcasters would get really frustrated about the way the system rewards intricacy (which is good) but in doing so sacrificed speed - which is bad. Is doing intricate steps slowly better/harder than doing somewhat easier footwork but doing it fast? Personally, I want to see different approaches to step sequences and to program construction, and I don't see how the judging as currently set up promotes that.

I believe there should be several different ways to get high levels rather than a single checklist (I imagine it something like this: flail arms - check; bend down and say hi to the ice - check; high-kick like a cheerleader -check). Either have that, or judge spins and footwork using GOEs only. As it is, the step sequences are getting boring, and the spins are just ugly.

 

[Mathman]

{whole post)

I enjoyed reading that! Thank you.

 

[elanna]

for me, no one does it better than kurt browning!!! and he did musical footwork long before the cop. Yagudin's footwork was theatrically effective for those fans who are new to figure skating.

I think it`s a matter of taste. For me, Yags`s been the best. He was doing his footwork on ice as if dancing on the floor, without leaving even a slightest trace on the ice surface! Pure magic! And I`ve always adored Kurt Browning as well!

 

[Fashionista]

Talking about Plushenko's sit spin. Video from his recent training (yes, in the end he's started to train three times a day):

http://spb.kp.ru/daily/24243.4/442503/

This sit spin is excellent.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Talking about Plushenko's sit spin. Video from his recent training (yes, in the end he's started to train three times a day):

http://spb.kp.ru/daily/24243.4/442503/

This sit spin is excellent.

Great video. He's actually trying to do the convoluted sitsspin of Lambiel's, the originator. Good for Plush. He even got all the way down.

I believe he always could, but to go down all the way takes up a lot of energy in coming up from the down. He had to save the energy for another triple. So in competition he didn't go all the way down. Didn't he have a breathing problem?

senorita - I too must praise you for your thoughtful post.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think it`s a matter of taste. For me, Yags`s been the best. He was doing his footwork on ice as if dancing on the floor, without leaving even a slightest trace on the ice surface! Pure magic! And I`ve always adored Kurt Browning as well!

Of course, all best-rated performances are a matter of taste. We can disagree without argument.

I think the founding fathers of the PC scores knew this and went on to give the performance scores a back seat in the system. Just not quantifiable.

What amuses me about the fans, is that they post excellent critiques of the Technical which is very quantifiable, but they make the mistake in the PC as soley performance scores. I am afraid Buttle and Yagudin's 06Oly would not fare well in the PC scoring system on choreo, musicality, alone.

 

[Eurofan]

^^Geez, can you even see us mere mortals from that high horse of yours?

Touché!

 

[shine]

As Toni says, under the CoP Yagudin's footwork would be a level 1. That's what I don't like about the CoP. It rewards crap and punishes genius.

Yagudin's footwork was definitely very original and amazing to watch *at the time*, mostly because people haven't seen it before. But I remember even in 2002 there have been posters who pointed out that the footwork was technically easy and repetitive since it most consisted of toe-pick steps. I think it's very good for entertainment and show value, but really it did very little to demonstrate the skater's mastery of the blades. The choreography, though very clever and catchy, didn't really come across as the most sophisticated. Under CoP we've seen some amazing footwork that have been inventive, musical, entertaining and difficult. Lambiel's are a great example. I think CoP does a very good job at rewarding techinical difficulty, but not so much the entertainment/inventiveness of choreography, which leads me to agree with Lambiel's idea from another interview that figure skating might be better off combining the efforts of both CoP and the 6.0 systems, instead of just one or the other.

 

[seniorita]

Well as an athlete you have to know your limits and potentials, you choose to do your jumbs and dont go down if you cant have strength to go until the end and without damaged body, you do the footwork that suits you in order not to stumble, you spin like crazy and you prefer to pop a jumb, that or you are superman.About plush breathing problem i havent heard, but the year he was skating injured up until worlds 2005, he was freaking me out.

Talking about Plushenko's sit spin. Video from his recent training (yes, in the end he's started to train three times a day):
http://spb.kp.ru/daily/24243.4/442503/
This sit spin is excellent.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaa, the God of Ice in his temple
Isnt it 3 times a day a lot?Or it is not three times on ice?Ohh that spin, well me i dont like Cop for that reason, it makes people calculate their moves to add points against their potentials, with his multi surgered knees me i prefer healthy plush with no sit spin! I was looking at video and got afraid his knees will break and he will sit on ice!!
I guess plush reads your posts joe and decided he has to go all the way down to be Cop friendly .

wow, my previous posts got almost a page long!!Sorry for any English abuse. Mathman , Joe, milles merci, I have been enjoying your posts long before i signed in