Men's LP

[coconutpunch]

Protocols are available through the event page. I only have Medusa's (excellent ) PBP to go by, but it seems to me as though Brian and Nobu were screwed over, Chan was completely overscored and Lysacek got a World Champion bonus. Any thoughts from people who actually watched?

Save for the underrotated 3A, I thought Lysacek did quite well, and I'm with Medusa on Joubert's program - in no way was it fantastic but it was..."good." I'm utterly confused with Nobu's PCS score, but then again, the judges don't seem to particularly care for his LP after NHK. PatChan...no comment.

 

[Alicja]

I think what killed him is -GOEs on three different jump elements. Were these warranted? I'm just having a hard time understanding how he got beaten by a guy with no 3A and 6 triples, not all of them clean, plus a quadless guy with two downgrades. Chan's overscoring seems more blatant to me, and I suspect Ant is right about the reason.

I really hope Brian shows up with a really good LP next season, to go along with his high-scoring SP, and screws up the Annointing of the Great Patrick.

And for our Canadian friends here at GS: this is not Canadian bashing; it's judges-bashing. Also, I like V/M.

I disagree what killed him were the levels. Footwork and spins might not count as much as jumps but if you don't get the levels it adds up. Also, three-turns before adding the 2nd jump to a combo are not exactly what judges are looking for to give out +GOEs. So I think those - GOEs were correct. As for the edge call I don't know I'd have to take a closer look at it.
I honestly believe Brian was scored correctly. That Patrick otoh was most probably overscored is another story.

 

[gracefulswan]

And here comes the World CHAMPION
Triple Lutz - Triple Toe - perfect
Triple Axel - one of his better ones
Triple Salchow - solid
Circular Steps - he is a bit slow I think
Sitspin - good
Triple Axel - Double Toe - good
Triple Rittberger - good
Triple Flip - Double Toe - Double Toe - small wobble
Triple Lutz - a bit tight
Double Axel
Sitspin - love that one
Steps - good energy here, windmills arrived
Combination Spin - great

Well, everyone who wants to be Olympic Champion needs to beat an 8Triple performance by this guy. It's amazing how he keeps going, how he is so consistent. You can bet that he will do the same in Vancouver. I don't like his style, but you have to admire him. Americans drunk now too.

Score: 154.86
Nah, there was a downgrade on a 3A. The tech is quite low with 76.

Not only that, but he's not even 100% healthy. Imagine if he is and then hits the quad in the short and long along with 7 solid triples as he is apt to do. He's very consistent with the jumps.....

Now I've seen the short of Chan and Joubert, but Lysacek's short is not even posted yet on youtube...

 

[Buttercup]

I honestly believe Brian was scored correctly. That Patrick otoh was most probably overscored is another story.

If you look at Brian in relation to Evan and Patrick, though, do the scores still make sense? I wrote that the jump GOEs are what killed him because he doesn't normally lose points there, whereas he has had issues with the levels in the past.

Brian got -1.12 for the combo with the turn - fair enough; -1.2 for the combo with the lip - also ok; and -1 on his 3Lz; was there a problem there? Evan, meanwhile, lost only -0.8 on his downgraded 3A-2T, and -0.6 on a 3-2-2 that had a downgrade and a !, and was wobbly besides (according to Medusa). It just seems strange to me that his GOEs didn't take a bigger hit, and that his PCS were so high, as were Chan's, considering the quality of both performances.

I can only base this on the PBP, so maybe the judging was spot-on. If anyone got to watch, I'd love to hear their thoughts on the placement of the top four skaters.

 

[viv]

It looks like they updated it, since it says 10 now (for Nobu).

Thanks!

 

[Alicja]

If you look at Brian in relation to Evan and Patrick, though, do the scores still make sense? I wrote that the jump GOEs are what killed him because he doesn't normally lose points there, whereas he has had issues with the levels in the past.

Brian got -1.12 for the combo with the turn - fair enough; -1.2 for the combo with the lip - also ok; and -1 on his 3Lz; was there a problem there? Evan, meanwhile, lost only -0.8 on his downgraded 3A-2T, and -0.6 on a 3-2-2 that had a downgrade and a !, and was wobbly besides (according to Medusa). It just seems strange to me that his GOEs didn't take a bigger hit, and that his PCS were so high, as were Chan's, considering the quality of both performances.

I'm not going to comment on Patrick's scores but I'll say that the PCS for Brian and Evan were okay, maybe it could have been a little closer but nothing to whine about. Brian's LP isn't exactly a masterpiece of choreography and has very few transitions what shows off in the scores. I don't particularly care for either Evan's or Brian's style but in terms of chereography and transitioning Evan's programs are far superior. Note that all of this has nothing to do with the fact whether or not we as spectators find those programs enjoyable.

As for the GOEs ! aren't that noticeable in GOEs. I have seen them overlooked more than once this season while e are severely penalized. Note also that Evan lost on the base value as well. Considering all this, Evan's tech score was slightly lower than Joubert's which is correct. It was only slightly lower because Joubert made mistakes in his combination and -GOEs in those apply to both jumps even if the second one is clean. If you count the jumps that were cleanly executed(no - GOEs) Evan had 6 clean triples, while Joubert had 3 and one quad.

So, overall Evan and Brian were judged correctly IMO.

 

[Buttercup]

So, overall Evan and Brian were judged correctly IMO.

Well, based on protocols and PBPs only, let's agree to disagree. A combination with three mistakes (edge, DG and wobble) should not lose only -0.6 off the base value, and I don't care if the skater is Evan, Brian, Plushy or Yu-Na. And a more ambitious program like Nobu's should be rewarded more than it was.

So far nobody has come to the judges' defense re Chan's marks. Interesting.

Maybe this season will be the wakeup call Brian Joubert needs for the Olympic season, sort of a Yagudin's 2001 vs. 2002; Brian has been known to do his Alexei impression on more than one occasion .

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And a more ambitious program like Nobu's should be rewarded more than it was.

Shouldn't credit go to the Choreographer? I believe the judges are compelled to judge what they see. If there is a choreographically tougher program it still should reflect the faults of the skater. That's the judges' jobs.

My personal feeling on Nobunari is that he is not yet back from his hiatus. He will be more himself in Vancouver.

 

[chuckm]

Joubert got killed because his FS was so sloppy and haphazard. Once again, he departed from his planned program (something he said after Worlds he would never do again); he turned out of the landings on his combinatons; his footwork and spins were meh. After Brian finished skating, it was plain to me that Lysacek had won.

I thought Chan was WAY overmarked. He landed only 6 triples, none of which was a 3A; he fell on his one and only 3A attempt. If this performance was so worthy of the second-highest TES, then yes, it does look suspiciously like a pre-Vancouver annointing of the Men's OGM winner. But if Chan DOES win the OGM with a pair of performances like this, there will be an uproar that will make SLC look like a tea party.

 

[Morning Glory]

Found clips though their qualities are not high.

Brian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od8ia9p5n6k&feature=channel

Evan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6JaMKbj4QI&feature=channel

Jeremy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyPOzKlJ_eM&feature=channel

Takachan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-feVU_XMk&feature=channel

I'll add other skaters' if I can find.

 

[Buttercup]

I thought Chan was WAY overmarked. He landed only 6 triples, none of which was a 3A; he fell on his one and only 3A attempt. If this performance was so worthy of the second-highest TES, then yes, it does look suspiciously like a pre-Vancouver annointing of the Men's OGM winner. But if Chan DOES win the OGM with a pair of performances like this, there will be an uproar that will make SLC look like a tea party.

It was second highest PCS, I believe. There is a limit even to what the judges can do for Mr. Chan, who once again had a base mark under 70 and a much higher TES (esp. considering the 3A fall).

I doubt there will be as big a controversy as SLC in the event of P-Chan winning Olys with crap performances. After all, you can't have a good conspiracy without eeeeevil Russians. It's nowhere near as fun to Blame Canada (insert Brian Boitano joke if you wish).

 

[museksk8r]

So I'm guessing this team competition doesn't add together the placements, but instead the points. Patrick Chan (9 + 2 = 11) 217.98 finished ahead of Jeremy Abbott (5 + 5 = 10) 205.05.

 

[antmanb]

So I'm guessing this team competition doesn't add together the placements, but instead the points. Otherwise, how did Patrick Chan (9 + 2 = 11) finish ahead of Jeremy Abbott (5 + 5 = 10)?

Edited - There is not a single COP competition that uses ordinal juding it's always cumulative COP scores.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Joubert got killed because his FS was so sloppy and haphazard. Once again, he departed from his planned program (something he said after Worlds he would never do again); he turned out of the landings on his combinatons; his footwork and spins were meh. After Brian finished skating, it was plain to me that Lysacek had won.

I thought Chan was WAY overmarked. He landed only 6 triples, none of which was a 3A; he fell on his one and only 3A attempt. If this performance was so worthy of the second-highest TES, then yes, it does look suspiciously like a pre-Vancouver annointing of the Men's OGM winner. But if Chan DOES win the OGM with a pair of performances like this, there will be an uproar that will make SLC look like a tea party.

I seriously doubt that would be the case, unless he wins over Lysacek because the North American media would not explode and cry foul over such a result if it was over the french or Japanese.

I'm fairly certain articles would crop up supporting and "explaining" the result to the masses.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

Also, three-turns before adding the 2nd jump to a combo are not exactly what judges are looking for to give out +GOEs. So I think those - GOEs were correct. As for the edge call I don't know I'd have to take a closer look at it. I honestly believe Brian was scored correctly. That Patrick otoh was most probably overscored is another story.

Alicja, having watched Brian's WTT LP, I agree with your take and with the scoring. There were some smaller mistakes that I wasn't aware of, and he didn't really sell the program as well as he normally would. I am not going to watch Lysacek, don't really care for him or this LP, so I can't say if he was scored fairly.

So now it's been established that a. Brian can deliver great SPs and b. He really needs a good LP. I hope he gets one for next year. Maybe he should have a chat with Fabian and Nathalie on the flight back.

ETA: apparently it's a go with Tarasova for choreo. Not sure what I think of it, but he must not let her choose his costumes.

I seriously doubt that would be the case, unless he wins over Lysacek because the North American media would not explode and cry foul over such a result if it was over the french or Japanese.

I'm fairly certain articles would crop up supporting and "explaining" the result to the masses.

Exactly, we will be told about the many intricate transitions (discounting that transitions should lead to well executed elements) and the artistry, which is subjective anyway.

 

[DarkestMoon]

Patrick had two 9.0s - nothing really to come home about. IMHO, his 9.0 on his skating skills is well-deserved. It's his basic skating we're talking about here. Transitions look correct and it's what he should have gotten at Worlds.

His jump content is also nothing to come home about in this competition but the in-betweens saved his score. A well-balanced program should be able to work the code that way. Christ, people were all RAWR!!! about Sasha winning silver after a fall and a big stepout but the consensus was that she had everything else to keep her on podium. Case in point with Chan.

Was he overscored? Yes, I think so too based on what transpired with his jumps but you can't deny that his skating skills or transitions were too high.

So now, I'm actually waiting for the likes of oxade to come around and unleash her fury of corrupt judging.

 

[PolymerBob]

Were medals handed out?

Was there a podium? :scratch:

 

[Hsuhs]

Were medals handed out?
Was there a podium? :scratch:

The competition isn't over yet.
Individual medals and podiums aren't allowed, AFAIK.

 

[i love to skate]

So now, I'm actually waiting for the likes of oxade to come around and unleash her fury of corrupt judging.

 

[antmanb]

Patrick had two 9.0s - nothing really to come home about. IMHO, his 9.0 on his skating skills is well-deserved. It's his basic skating we're talking about here. Transitions look correct and it's what he should have gotten at Worlds.

But i'm not sure it's "just" the two 9.0s that people are questioning it's all the other marks that make the overall PCS so high. Does a skater really deserve the same skating skills marks for a sloppy performance with a number of errors as they do when they skate strong error free program? The answer surely must be no, the judges must mark the demonstration of the skill on that day, otherwise the skating skills mark is just a "past performance" mark.

His jump content is also nothing to come home about in this competition but the in-betweens saved his score. A well-balanced program should be able to work the code that way. Christ, people were all RAWR!!! about Sasha winning silver after a fall and a big stepout but the consensus was that she had everything else to keep her on podium. Case in point with Chan.

Not me - i thought Sasha's Olympic LP was overmarked too and thought her silver was beyond a gift.

Ant