Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

[evangeline]

Personally, I think people romanticize 6.0 too much. I suppose we remember all the spectacular, beautiful programs that skaters like Janet Lynn and Michelle Kwan did under 6.0 but people also forget those stroke-jump-stroke-jump programs that were as common and dull as the 'checklist'-type programs today. IMO, it all depends on the skater's ability and the choreographer. It's equally possible to construct a beautiful, artistic program under CoP too--haven't skaters like Stephane Lambiel showed us that?

And as for scoring, 6.0 can just be as confusing as CoP. Sure, a 6.0 obviously means the program was excellent, and everyone can tell that a program that scored a 5.8, 5.9 was better than one that scored 5.4, 5.2. But isn't it equally easy to tell that a program that scored a 76.03 is better than one that scored 69.24?

That being said, CoP definitely has its flaws. But so did 6.0.

 

[ballerynna]

When I was a kid, I kind of accepted the 6.0 system, although I found it weird that everyone had the same score. I guess the ordinals really didn't stick with me. With the CoP, I see why someone won in terms of scoring.

Of course how someone arrived at that score is a whole different matter. If commentators explained how Skater A got those levels, I think I would understand a whole lot more, but of course not everyone does that.

And Joe, yes my ballet school followed the Russian style because we did classical ballet. Balanchine, in his leotard/tights programs, was doing neo-classical. Not all had a character to imbibe. My ballet company does do neo-classical, but understood that classical is its forte so it frequently did programs in that vein.

Like it or not, many figure skaters use music fit for a character, and costumes go a long way.

 

[MissIzzy]

I think part of the resistance to CoP is that people are naturally resistant to change, and to trying to understand new things. That, of course, is a thorny problem the ISU doesn't seem willing to deal with. I'm with those people who find CoP easier to understand than 6.0, but of course I only started watching in 2006.
If we did go back to the 6.0 system, I wonder how many Japanese and Korean fans would start complaining that the new/old system was incomprehensible(and you'd never convince the Mao/Yu-Na fans that the judging wasn't rigged whenever their favorites lost!).

 

[antmanb]

Did you get to wear those cool periwigs, too?

No i'm a (and was training to be a ) solicitor not a barrister (a distinction i'm not sure they have anywhere else in the world!) so we lowly solicitors have limited rights of audience in court so never get to the big wigs literally! I'm not a litigator anyway so i rarely have anything to do with courts!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

You mean, like with the Mexicans right now? "Not all Mexicans have swine flu. So if you meet a Mexican, it's possible that he hasn't the swine flu and is not contagious" - "Not all male skaters are gay. So if you meet a male skater, it's possible that he isn't gay and therefore won't spread this condition"

Thank you Medusa, i was trying to think of an appropriate reply but yours was the best! Heaven help someone catch gay from watching skating on tv

Ant

 

[antmanb]

But Skate Canada can't do anything about the scoring system, and even if they could, they're probably thinking about how it benefited their skaters. And the accusations of judicial corruption and the actions of the ISU fueling those accusations, it seems, Skate Canada really can't do anything about.
I think they're in denial that they're kind of helpless right now. This is something they can do, so they're doing it.

Skate Canada will never say the scoring system is faulty - they had the major hand in coming up with the system in the first place!!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Other than the fact that I understood that it was a sytem of favorites... and waiting your turn... and having the right coach... and the right country... certainly don't miss that crap.

I would say you don't miss that Toni because it never went away!

Ant

 

[viv]

I was totally waiting for someone to say that. I don't want to comment any further on the right of this traditional Spanish/Portuguese sport to exist, every country / culture thinks that their traditions are the most precious ones (like gun-ownership in the US, or, well, bullfighting in Spain). But e.g. in France there are harmless variations of the sport, where the bulls don't get hurt (often there is some kind of rosette that has to be taken from the bull and that's it - the young men get hurt sometimes though). I watched one of those spectacles in Nîmes (in this arena) and it looked like a lot of fun and after the fête is over, the bulls are taken back to the Camargue to continue their relative free life.

I think the Portugese version is the harmless one too. At leats I saw one of those a few years ago when friends took me to one in Lisboa. It is harmless for the bull, at least, but can get dangerous for the toreros.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^ Fans of the CoP claim that the new judging system has improved the sport. The president of the Canadian federation (in his email posted on FSU) mentions that now we are seeing level four spins and step sequences, whereas the great skaters of the past only did level ones.

Ottavio Cinquanta was quoted recently as saying," the new judging system has improved the product. If the public doesn't like the new product, what can we do? We (the ISU) are not a marketing organization."

Good informative post! However, I disagree with these blokes. Musicality and originality have suffered tremendously in the overall view of Figure Skating.

After showing some quads and convoluted spins at honest levels, the Tech does seem to have improved, but where in hell are those glorious presentations we used to have?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

.And Joe, yes my ballet school followed the Russian style because we did classical ballet. Balanchine, in his leotard/tights programs, was doing neo-classical. Not all had a character to imbibe. My ballet company does do neo-classical, but understood that classical is its forte so it frequently did programs in that vein.

There is no teaching style in ballet anymore. There is such an exchange of technique that companies use whatever works best, and that's why all companies are dancing better. Alicia Alonso (Cuban ballerina) gave classes to the Bolshoi ballet stars back in the 50s, on how to pirouette 6 rotations which they could not do before. They marveled at her when she toured Russia.

The bottom line here is that Ballet is not a Sport.

Like it or not, many figure skaters use music fit for a character, and costumes go a long way.

And SOA shows that very well. I just do not appreciate ornate costumes in the Sport. There isn't even any scoring for costumes. If you want the Sport to become a Pagaent, then so be it, but it is not comparable to professional ballet.

 

[Mathman]

Surprisingly even with all the math I get it a whole lot more now than I did with stupid ordinals.

I dabble with Fermat's Last Theorem [laid to rest by Andrew Wiles in 1994 -- MM ] and models of the universe in my spare time, and even I don't like CoP. I think you expect too much of average people. Why should everyone have to be a mathematician to understand what is happening...

Toni actually has a good point, and a very interesting one.

How many people actually understood OBO? If you gave the typical fan the complete list of ordinals for each judge, in many cases it would be impossible for that fan to figure out who won (this is especially true for the skaters in the middle of the pack.)

At the 2002 Olympics, the New York Times published a big but erroneous story claiming that if the U.S. judge (Joe Inman) had placed Kwan in second and Slutskaya third, instead of the other way around, then Kwan would have won the gold medal.

This would have been correct if the Olympics were using the "majority of ordinals" method of determining the winner (the method used, for instance, at U.S. nationals.) But the Olympics used OBO ("one-by-one") instead, so under that system, two extra judges would have had to switch Kwan and Slutskaya in order to take the prize from Hughes.

Here are the ordinals for the LP.

................GER RUS SVK DEN ITA BLR FIN CAN USA

Hughes.......1......4......3..... .4......1.....2......1......1........1

Slutskaya.. 1......1.......1......4.......1.....2......3......2.......2

Kwan..........2......2......2......2.......2.....3......3... ..2.......3

Switch the 2 and the 3 for the U.S. judge, and Kwan wins the majority of first and second place ordinals over Slutskaya 7 to 6. Kwan gets second in the LP and first overall. (I don't have space here to list all the cross tables for OBO. )

Under ordinals some really wierd mathematical things were possible, and actually happened occasionally. Thing like -- skater A (first) is leading skater B (second), with one skater left to go. That skater manages to insert herself between skaters C and D, well behind the leaders, and gets fourth place. Now B wins. :scratch: Why? Well some (a minority) of the judges had D ahead of A or B, so when the last skater beat D, that also affected the spreadsheets for A and B.

Mathematically, the trouble with ordinals is that they cannot be treated like ordinary numbers. You cannot average ordinals, for instance. (Basically, this is because you cannot add ordinals: 1st place + 2nd place = 3rd place?). Doing statistical analysis of ordinals is a bear because they do not follow standard probabiltity distributions. Plus, under ordinal judging you cannot guarantee that there will be a clear winner (this is called the "Condorcet paradox," or the "rock-paper-scissors paradox.")

What is interesting is that despite all this, most people thought (incorrectly) that they understood ordinal judging, but (also incorrectly) that they couldn't understand the new system. There just seemed to be an immediacy, in the old system, between the performance the spectatrs saw on the ice and the results. This immediacy seems to be lacking now, for some reason.

 

[fumie_fumie]

No i'm a (and was training to be a ) solicitor not a barrister (a distinction i'm not sure they have anywhere else in the world!) so we lowly solicitors have limited rights of audience in court so never get to the big wigs literally! I'm not a litigator anyway so i rarely have anything to do with courts!

Ant

I believe Australian system (possibly New Zealand) still distinguishes solicitors/barristers the same way the British does. It is easier to become a barrister in Australia: you would need a 8-week training and write a paper.

 

[ballerynna]

All this makes me think, what are the Japanese and the South Korean federations doing right that people still watch figure skating? And how can the North Americans learn? Is it because their skaters are stars, and if its, isn't that like the chicken and egg thing?

Joe, there is still different teaching styles here in the Philippines. We don't normally get that many visiting dancers that aren't Russian (and there were others, not in my school, I don't know why)

 

[ballerynna]

Skate Canada will never say the scoring system is faulty - they had the major hand in coming up with the system in the first place!!

And they seem to play it to their advantage

 

[viv]

All this makes me think, what are the Japanese and the South Korean federations doing right that people still watch figure skating? ....

They put it on TV on a more or less regular basis. Also, IMO they appreciate the stars they have got and try to give them support.

But for me the most important fact is that events are televised.

 

[wishmaker]

This is getting out of our topic but I wish to say that Ballet is and will always be a classical art. No one can say that there is no teaching style in ballet anymore. Classical Ballet has a syllabus for all different levels from beginners to intermmediates and advance even until the teacher's syllabus. The Classical Shows like the Nutcracker Suite, Midsummer's Night Dream, Cinderella,etc., are all being taught and until perfected. Then, there are also other classes (in a company) where the company members are being taught like modern ballet, contemporary dance, jazz , and tap and sometimes they add other optional classes like tango--all these classes make all the dancers very versatile. Then when there are shows, aside from the Classical (Swan Lake ,etc.), other choreographies are also shown. JOESITZ, I hope you don't mind me answering. There are actually the French Style where Royal Academy comes in (of Dame Margot Fonteyn) which is more refined, then there's the Russian Style (like Baryshnikov) where there is more bravura. If you like to know more about Ballet, please don't hesitate to message me. I forgot to tell you that my En Dehor Pirouette, minimum double and my normal pirouette is quadruple and my daring pirouette is five and six. So, I think for someone to know about Ballet is to observe a company class. So sorry for getting carried away. Sorry JOESITZ, I don't mean to be mean but I just want to give some info.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

wishmaker. Ballet is not folk dancing although like figure skating it incorporates dance forms from sources around the world. There is a vocabulary of steps and tricks wth emphasis on what the Italians created long before any other country did. The Italians danced with pointed toes and turned out knees. The French Consul in Italy at the time, was amazed and got permission to have the Italian dancers perform in Paris. And that was the beginning of Ballet with the French creating ballets in the form used by Opera. Visiting diplomats, notanbly the Danes, started their school of ballet. Eventually, with Russia coming out of the doldrums, had Peter and his German wife to have ballet in Petersburg. The Kirov was born, and Danish, French, and Italian balletmasters were invited to train the Russian dancers. There were different styles of teaching among these contributors to train Russian ballet students, and the Russians eked out the best of these teachers.

Fast forward, the general public always preferred opera, and ballet became a very second second form of cultural entertainment. (It wasn't till the mid 20th century that the Americans appreciated.) But the Russians loved it and the public acknowledge the Ballets Russes. Now the Russians are catching up to Modern Ballet and Ratmansky is quite good.

There is more to ballet than implying that children's fairy stories are the classical forms. To study ballet and dance to Nicholas Cage is very possible. You are not yet able to see that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What all this has to do with Young Men wearing sequins, is a matter of taste. No? I for one, do not like it. I believe one can still be feminine-like without audacious costumes.

The body language sells the program - not the costume.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

The body language sells the program - not the costume.

But a great costume which fits the character and/or story of the program enhances the body language. It does not detract from it in any way.

No reason to limit yourself

 

[gkelly]

FYI, message from William Thompson posted on the Skate Canada site.

http://www.skatecanada.ca/en/news_views/news/2008_2009/may_6.cfm